No, Balefire Does Not Work Like that. (-- 2009 Empy Award Winner!)

[John Galt]

Because it's completely irrelevant to the point I was making

Yeah, I agree. I thought this this thread was about Balefire. People seem to be confusing fiction with the real world. It easily happens, I know.

 :D

 

 

 

I'm not confusing the two.  I corrected an idiotic statement then proceeded to voice my opinions on the balefire subject matter.  Then people launched nonsensical arguments by making irrelevant statements that I can only assume were supposed to highlight their supposed intelligence.

 

Fantasy fans have a long history of trying to reconcile fictional devices with reality.  It doesn't help that Robert Jordan was a nuclear engineer so they feel his fictional world somehow must make sense within our own reality.  Eventually they'll realize that Aristotle's law of contradictions only applies in reality, and does not bridge gaps into the illusions inside the minds of fantasy writers.

 

We aren't all pieces of thread in a weave of time.  Thus, "burning away the thread of existence" has absolutely no meaning in the reality of our existence.  So arguments about the physical and temporal laws that control balefire are, as they say, bass ackwards.

[Nightstrike]

I'm not confusing the two.  I corrected an idiotic statement then proceeded to voice my opinions on the balefire subject matter.  Then people launched nonsensical arguments by making irrelevant statements that I can only assume were supposed to highlight their supposed intelligence.

No, I didn't think that you did. I didn't refer to you.

 

Fantasy fans have a long history of trying to reconcile fictional devices with reality.  It doesn't help that Robert Jordan was a nuclear engineer so they feel his fictional world somehow must make sense within our own reality.  Eventually they'll realize that Aristotle's law of contradictions only applies in reality, and does not bridge gaps into the illusions inside the minds of fantasy writers.

RJ said that he wasn't particularly inspired by physics. He said that other things, most notably his interest in history/mythology, were more influential on his writing.

 

We aren't all pieces of thread in a weave of time.  Thus, "burning away the thread of existence" has absolutely no meaning in the reality of our existence.  So arguments about the physical and temporal laws that control balefire are, as they say, bass ackwards.

I agree with you. Real world science won't get us very far in WoT, just like WoT doesn't tell us anything about real world science. RJ never intended it that way. He just wrote a good story.

[John Galt]

It all depends on the quantum denier threadcount.

 

Can we get back to balefire??

 

Wow.  Quantum denier threadcount?   Do you even understand... anything!?!?!?!?!

 

;D :P  I jest.

 

Balefire?

 

Well my main question was already answered a page ago.  But I am curious as to what people think will be the results of Rand's orders to his Ashaman and whether he'll revoke them now that he's "healed."  I'm also curious as to whether balefire can be blocked in WoT lore.  I seem to remember that you can't stop it which presents an interesting picture of Tarmon Gaidon.  If Rand keeps up with his philosophy, I basically envision him, 100 Ashaman, 200 Aes Sedai and Callador killing every single dreadnaught, forsaken, and darkfriend left with a single weave.  Or, of course, the other way around.

[John Galt]

I'm not confusing the two.  I corrected an idiotic statement then proceeded to voice my opinions on the balefire subject matter.  Then people launched nonsensical arguments by making irrelevant statements that I can only assume were supposed to highlight their supposed intelligence.

No, I didn't think that you did. I didn't refer to you.

 

Fantasy fans have a long history of trying to reconcile fictional devices with reality.  It doesn't help that Robert Jordan was a nuclear engineer so they feel his fictional world somehow must make sense within our own reality.  Eventually they'll realize that Aristotle's law of contradictions only applies in reality, and does not bridge gaps into the illusions inside the minds of fantasy writers.

RJ said that he wasn't particularly inspired by physics. He said that other things, most notably his interest in history/mythology, were more influential on his writing.

 

We aren't all pieces of thread in a weave of time.  Thus, "burning away the thread of existence" has absolutely no meaning in the reality of our existence.  So arguments about the physical and temporal laws that control balefire are, as they say, bass ackwards.

I agree with you. Real world science won't get us very far in WoT, just like WoT doesn't tell us anything about real world science. RJ never intended it that way. He just wrote a good story.

 

Sorry I misunderstood.  Yes, it's pretty obvious RJ was inspired by mythology.  Half his names are taken straight from Gaelic mythology with a few letters changed to make them unique.  His stories themselves are also clearly inspired by Gaelic and other mythologies.

 

I agree he's written great stories, as evidenced by the fact I have any desire to post on these forums :P  He has been pretty good with entertaining his fans with answers to questions that shouldn't really matter that much, like "If A balefires B and B balefires C and C balefires A... what happens?"  I'm impressed with his patience to answer questions like that, and his bravery.  God forbid his answers are illogical when the subject matter itself is so logical (MAGIC DOES EXIST!!!!).  I'm also a Terry Goodkind fan and some fan caught him in a contradiction concerning his use of "magic" and he was finally just like... "magic isn't real... you know this right?" 

[Dorkfiend]

It all depends on the quantum denier threadcount.

 

Can we get back to balefire??

 

Wow.  Quantum denier threadcount?   Do you even understand... anything!?!?!?!?!

 

 

Actually, the more I think about it, the more my feeble attempt at sarcasm makes sense.

 

Denier, as I remember it from some crazy engineering class I took half a lifetime ago, is a measure of density of threads.  If lives are the threads, and some of those threads are burned out of the pattern, then the greatest initial impact is going to be on threads that are close by.

 

If you balefire the living heck out of something/someone in isolation, who has had no possibility to affect other threads, should pose no threat to the, ahem, fabric of reality.  You're tweezing off a thread from your cuff.  No big whoop.

 

If you burn out a thread that has many interactions with threads around it, then this will have a much greater impact.  And once you remove incongruities in those threads back to the point where the burnt thread still existed, well, then you have other incongruities to solve; secondary effects.  Tertiary.  Quaternary.

 

If you burn out a LOT of threads a good distance back in time, you might get lucky if most of those interactions were with each other.  But it's going to be hard to guarantee that.  The law of "six degrees of separation" probably operates in Randland as well as here and now.

 

As to "quantum" denier?  From a quantum mechanics class I took so long ago I barely remember it, I learned that the position of a particle cannot be predicted with precision, but the precision of the *probability* of its position *can* be measured -- and that probability will alter, based on interactions with other particles.  There was math involved in this, big nasty math with huge, hairy teeth.  I have a feeling that the effects of balefire would be about the same.  You couldn't predict exactly what gets changed, but you can probably guess what would probably change.

 

So yeah, I stand by what I say.  "Quantum denier threadcount".

 

For my next trick, I'll prove that black is white and get killed at the next Domani razor crossing.

 

[Nightstrike]

I'm also curious as to whether balefire can be blocked in WoT lore.

The Forsaken don't seem to know any such way. I think balefire might be the most powerful and destructive weave there is. My guess is that it can't be deflected or countered in any way.

 

I seem to remember that you can't stop it which presents an interesting picture of Tarmon Gaidon.  If Rand keeps up with his philosophy, I basically envision him, 100 Ashaman, 200 Aes Sedai and Callador killing every single dreadnaught, forsaken, and darkfriend left with a single weave.  Or, of course, the other way around.

It also damages the Pattern. I think it might be the last resort, only to be used when nothing else will suffice. Semirhage not becoming resurrected by the DO might be worth the price. She was one truly evil creature.

 

 

God forbid his answers are illogical when the subject matter itself is so logical (MAGIC DOES EXIST!!!!).  I'm also a Terry Goodkind fan and some fan caught him in a contradiction concerning his use of "magic" and he was finally just like... "magic isn't real... you know this right?"  

I've not read Terry Goodkind. Many people on dragonmount seem to really hate that guy. I'd be careful not to mention him, if I were in your shoes.  :D  

 

[Dorkfiend]

I'm also curious as to whether balefire can be blocked in WoT lore.

The Forsaken don't seem to know any such way. I think balefire might be the most powerful and destructive weave there is. My guess is that it can't be deflected or countered in any way.

 

Cuendillar.  And Callandor, unless Callandor is also Cuendillar.

 

God forbid his answers are illogical when the subject matter itself is so logical (MAGIC DOES EXIST!!!!).  I'm also a Terry Goodkind fan and some fan caught him in a contradiction concerning his use of "magic" and he was finally just like... "magic isn't real... you know this right?"  

I've not read Terry Goodkind. Many people on dragonmount seem to really hate that guy. I'd be careful not to mention him, if I were in your shoes.  :D  

 

 

He's not that bad.  He's just, well, kinda good.  And repetitive.  And tells the same story over and over.  And repeats himself a lot.  And is a fascist.  And doesn't pay a lot of attention to detail, which is what gives any story believability and spice.  And writes like Ayn Rand would have, if only Ayn Rand wasn't capable of writing plot.

 

[John Galt]

Well I won't start a TG vs. RJ debate but you do realize that he's the exact opposite of a fascist, right?  Or maybe, like 90% of the American population, you just have no real idea what fascism is and like to call anyone you don't like a fascist?

 

To the topic though:

 

Ok.  Well the other side can't exactly put up a big wall of Cuellindar, can they?  Also, my point was that Rand already destroyed a palace with balefire and was dangerously close to destroying a whole army with balefire... so if he takes the philosophy with him that balefire is ok to Tarmon Gaidon... there might be some serious issues.  Or is he going to go back, claim to Tam, Min, Nyn and Cad "I'm healed!," and then go tell the Ashaman: "hey, listen, remember that weave I taught you? Never use it."

[WWWwombat]

Maybe I should actually read The Sword of Truth so I can get in on all this trolling.

[Dorkfiend]

Well I won't start a TG vs. RJ debate but you do realize that he's the exact opposite of a fascist, right?  Or maybe, like 90% of the American population, you just have no real idea what fascism is and like to call anyone you don't like a fascist?

 

Well, no.  Most political figures I don't like, I call socialists ;)  Generally, though, I use the term precisely.  No need to get touchy!

 

As it happens, Rand is also pursuing a fascist strategy, more or less, except that his economic strategy is more dictatorial than corporatist.  Masema is even more of a fascist.

 

To the topic though:

 

Ok.  Well the other side can't exactly put up a big wall of Cuellindar, can they?  Also, my point was that Rand already destroyed a palace with balefire and was dangerously close to destroying a whole army with balefire... so if he takes the philosophy with him that balefire is ok to Tarmon Gaidon... there might be some serious issues.

 

I don't think we'll have to worry about that.  My theory is that getting Rand to use balefire was explicitly a strategy of Moridin's.  The main point of the Forsaken were not to be effective soldiers of the shadow (frankly, most of them suck at that) but to be throwaway sacrifices to teach Rand that emotional death and balefire are the only way to solve your problems.

 

I do believe that among other things, Rand crushes the CK as an explicit renunciation of that path.

 

Or is he going to go back, claim to Tam, Min, Nyn and Cad "I'm healed!," and then go tell the Ashaman: "hey, listen, remember that weave I taught you? Never use it."

 

I'd be a little disappointed if it's that easy, but I'm thinking it will be something along those lines.

 

[Dorkfiend]

Maybe I should actually read The Sword of Truth so I can get in on all this trolling.

 

The first book is pretty decent.  I gave up after I read the same basic story in each of the following five books, though.

 

[Nightstrike]

Everybody say he has ripped off RJ's ideas. Does it have anything resembling Balefire?

 

 

[WWWwombat]

Maybe I should actually read The Sword of Truth so I can get in on all this trolling.

 

The first book is pretty decent.  I gave up after I read the same basic story in each of the following five books, though.

 

 

I read the first book and thought it was good.  I don't want to read bad books but I'm kinda curious as to what everyone hates so much.

[Dorkfiend]

Everybody says he has ripped off RJ's ideas. Does it have anything resembling Balefire?

 

There's Wizard's Life Fire, which I believe is far stronger than regular Wizard's Fire.  If I recall correctly, it is very much like balefire in that can't be blocked by anything (unless you're the idiot who's put the boxes of Orden into play.)  It's instant suicide for the wizard who hurls it, but it doesn't burn backwards in time.  Also unlike balefire, Wizard's Life Fire is flavored.  Yes, flavored.

 

[lillcheese]

Everybody says he has ripped off RJ's ideas. Does it have anything resembling Balefire?

 

There's Wizard's Life Fire, which I believe is far stronger than regular Wizard's Fire.  If I recall correctly, it is very much like balefire in that can't be blocked by anything (unless you're the idiot who's put the boxes of Orden into play.)  It's instant suicide for the wizard who hurls it, but it doesn't burn backwards in time.  Also unlike balefire, Wizard's Life Fire is flavored.  Yes, flavored.

 

 

I was interested in reading it to join in the flames.  Then I saw "boxes of Orden" and "flavored" and I think, maybe not.

[Dorkfiend]

Everybody says he has ripped off RJ's ideas. Does it have anything resembling Balefire?

 

There's Wizard's Life Fire, which I believe is far stronger than regular Wizard's Fire.  If I recall correctly, it is very much like balefire in that can't be blocked by anything (unless you're the idiot who's put the boxes of Orden into play.)  It's instant suicide for the wizard who hurls it, but it doesn't burn backwards in time.  Also unlike balefire, Wizard's Life Fire is flavored.  Yes, flavored.

 

 

I was interested in reading it to join in the flames.  Then I saw "boxes of Orden" and "flavored" and I think, maybe not.

 

I just went looking to make sure I spelled "Orden" correctly, and lo and behold, holy shiznit, that magic is linked to something called "Chainfire" in the later Sword of Truth novels.  Chainfire "uses Subtractive Magic to remove all traces of memory of the person it is cast over, from everybody else's mind, causing them to forget the person even exists, even moments after seeing them."  Nah, this wasn't ripped from the balefire concept at all :P

 

(I suppose this was revealed after I stopped reading.  I'm gladder than ever that I stopped.)

 

Edit:  More rip:  "A Chainfire event had the very real potential to unravel the world of life itself."

 

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

Even wizards fire is very difficult to block. Also, dont forget about Richard being the first one to wield subtractive magic in thousands of years, the women making deals with the keeper to live forever and use his evil powers, the collars which control magical ability and the sorceressess use to train young wizards, the sunburst ring which is the head ladys signet, they live in the palace of the prophets which is a known landmark, the evil jagang is a dream walker and can control your mind through his dream powers, the emperor is coming to claim the "new world" as part of his empire, and a million other things which basically mark the entire series as ripped the eff off from RJ.

 

That being said, I was in jail for two years and read the whole series mainly out of boredom. It is much more juvenile than wot, but it isn't as horrible as everyone thinks, just unoriginal because RJ used most of the concepts first. The ending does suck though. And each book is more standalone than wot.

 

Oh, by the way, Terry Goodkind swears he never read Wheel of Time. Right.

[John Galt]

Maybe I should actually read The Sword of Truth so I can get in on all this trolling.

 

The first book is pretty decent.  I gave up after I read the same basic story in each of the following five books, though.

 

 

I read the first book and thought it was good.  I don't want to read bad books but I'm kinda curious as to what everyone hates so much.

 

Well, TG is not an epic fantasy writer.  Unlike most RJ fans I have a taste for more than one kind of fantasy.  TG is a character driven fantasy writer.  His world building is pretty sucktacular, but his characters are much better developed than RJs, and much more mature.

 

RJ fans hate him so much because there are similarities that are really hard to ignore.  People have confronted TG about them and he claims he's never read WoT.  RJ fans find this incredibly insulting, and think he not only STOLE from the God of modern fantasy himself, but had the audacity to LIE about it.  I liked Brandon Sanderson's WoT book a lot more than the last four RJ books because the prose was turned down, the characters were more mature, and it was less about where everyone was than it was about how people interacted with one another.  One could say that Sanderson was a step away from RJ's style toward TG's style, though I probably shouldn't have said that because I'm about to get beheaded.

 

Anyway, if you're actually interested, I'll list the similarities for you so they don't surprise you and anger you.  If there are too many similarities for you and it already angers you, I suggest not reading TG.

 

There hero is an exceptionally tall, well built young adult with thick hair and gray eyes.  They both stand out in their homelands because no one else looks like them.  They both are raised by a step father, and are prophecized to save the world from "evil."  In Richard's case, that evil changed a few times and isn't always the "Dark One," though for about 1.5 books the "Dark One" is the real enemy.  They both are not comfortable with the idea of being a magic user but are sucked into leadership because they were born to it.  In SoT there is a palace that no one knows about, across a boundary no one is supposed to be able to cross, called the "Palace of Prophets."  This is probably the biggest similarity.  The "Palace of Prophets" is home to the Sisters of Light.  It's almost exactly like Tar Valon and the Aes Sedai, including the fact they have a "Sister of Dark," or "Black Ajah" problem that no one is supposed to talk about but a few people no is a serious threat.  Like the Red Ajah, the Sisters of Light basically kidnap boys and keep them at the Palace of Prophets, keeping them captive by means of a "Rada'han" which is another huge similarity.  It's basically a non-gender specific Adam, only you don't need a bracelet to control the collared person.  Unlike the Red Ajah, they eventually let these boys go once they've learned how to control their gift, but that takes upwards of 300 years.  Oh yeah, and there's the other thing.  Sisters of Light have a "ageless face" due to the fact the Palace of Prophets extends their life even further than using magic does, giving them a lifespan of about 1200 years, assuming they never leave the place.   The Palace of Prophets is led by the Prelate, who functions almost exactly the same way as a Amrylin Seat, and just like Suin, this "Amrylin" learns about the birth of the man who can save them all, the "first war wizard in 3000 years," and makes it her life mission to make sure he makes it to "Final Battle."  Oh, and on his way to his captivity he meets a group of nomadic blade masters called the Baka Mau Mana which means "the people without masters," and he fulfills prophecy at the end of Stone of Tears and becomes their leader.  They don't follow him around and wage wars for him and that's basically the last you see of them (once he returns them to their land), but yeah... they are quite a lot like the Aiel in concept.  Though he's not from their lineage.

 

All these details are relatively insignificant parts of the SoT series.  All of them come from basically the second book only.  The "Palace of Prophets" doesn't have nearly the power or influence that Tar Valon has.  In fact, if the whole place ceased to exist and TG cut out the second book entirely, the overall series really wouldn't lose all that much.  The important elements of his story are nothing like RJ's, but the similarities in the mentioned details drives RJ fans off the wall.  I personally argue that if you look at mythology, the concept of "aes sedai" isn't actually new, and controlling magic users with a collar hardly seems so creative that it's not feasible both authors had the same idea.  But I obviously can't blame RJ fans for thinking TG is lying through his teeth and borrowed a whole bunch of material from RJ.  

 

Well I lost track of myself.  Sorry.

 

Back on topic, again.  I like the idea that the DO has been pushing Rand to use BF, but I wonder why?  BF is making him lose a ridiculous amount of powerful allies.  Maybe if Rand uses BF on the DO he breaks free for good?  I understand the push to drive Rand into feeling he's "hard as cuellindar" but I don't understand his encouragement of BF, unless he thinks Rand really will use it enough to permanently tear the Wheel of Time itself.

[coteaz]

I dont think that BF would work on the dark one, i doubt he has a thread, seeing as if he did, he would be bound by the same laws that the wheel is, and therefore would be destroyed along with the wheel if it was ever broken.

[Dorkfiend]

 

<ginormous Terry Kindagood snip>

 

Well I lost track of myself.  Sorry.

 

Back on topic, again.  I like the idea that the DO has been pushing Rand to use BF, but I wonder why?  BF is making him lose a ridiculous amount of powerful allies.  Maybe if Rand uses BF on the DO he breaks free for good?  I understand the push to drive Rand into feeling he's "hard as cuellindar" but I don't understand his encouragement of BF, unless he thinks Rand really will use it enough to permanently tear the Wheel of Time itself.

 

I think that's pretty much it.  The Dork One was free in the AoL.  And yet he didn't blind the great serpent.

 

So here's my off-the-cuff, looney theory du jour.  The TP cannot stop the Wheel.  The Wheel turns because saidar and saidin flow through it from the True Source.  The TP is not stronger than the OP, and only a very few people can use it.  Even so, those people don't want to destroy time, with the exception of Ishy.

 

So the only power available to destroy the Wheel is the OP, used against its own source.  The only one strong enough and with the correct tools at his disposal is one Rand al'Thor.

 

And so Rand has the choice to either break the world by balefire, ripping creation apart to the extent where the Pattern cannot heal, or else destroy the CK and eliminating a big piece of the threat.

 

So yeah ... The DO and Ishy (and possibly Demandred) try to force Rand to turn to the shadow, not by pledging to the DO, but by abandoning the Light, and by increasing chaos in the pattern.  Moridin practically spoon-feeds the idea to use balefire to Rand in their little fireside chat.  Semmi is thrown under the bus even more so than was Sammy.

 

[Coraxian]

So, anoyne ever wondered if Rand could balefire the DO with the TP?

Of course, this is assuming we'll ever see him in a form other than an avatar.

[Dorkfiend]

So, anoyne ever wondered if Rand could balefire the DO with the TP?

Of course, this is assuming we'll ever see him in a form other than an avatar.

 

Yeah, the question has been raised many times in many ways.

 

1.  Can Rand BF the DO and revert back to the AoL?  Been asked, many a time.  Unfortunately that much BF would shred the pattern completely.  Also, as TGS shows you can't touch the DO with the OP without nasty side effects.

2.  Well, then, can Rand BF the DO with the TP, or can he attack the DO with the TP in some other way?  This question is not even a new one, I read this theory more than ten years ago.  I think not.  The DO controls access to the TP.  The DO will have no problem if you want to BF anything else with the TP, or to destroy your own soul with the TP, but you're not going to attach him with it.

 

In any case, BFing the DO would be a pretty crappy way to end the story as a whole, with a plot device trick.  Very unsatisfying.

 

[Mr Ares]

Well, TG is not an epic fantasy writer.

Indeed. Terry Goodkind doesn't write fantasy at all, he writes novels. He also doesn't read fantasy, which is how he can guarantee his stuff is completely original. And you are the first person that I can recall saying that Sword of Truth is "character driven", or that his characters are better than RJ's. And, in point of fact, being character driven wouldn't stop his books being epic fantasy, which they are.

 

I dont think that BF would work on the dark one, i doubt he has a thread, seeing as if he did, he would be bound by the same laws that the wheel is, and therefore would be destroyed along with the wheel if it was ever broken.

RJ was once asked why someone doesn't just balefire Shai'tan, to the response that the quantity necessary would destroy the world, so apparently it is possible, just a really bad idea.

[coteaz]

Yeah you are right Mr Ares, i totally forgot about RJ saying that, How would this destruction occur though, would it destroy the wheel? would BF'ing the dark one cause some kind of irreparable paradox? Because i still maintain that he has no Thread to Burn, even if it can still effect him. Because if he did have a thread why would he be so intent on destroying the one thing that gives him existence? perhaps he wishes to be free from the repetitive cycle?

[CRex]

Yeah you are right Mr Ares, i totally forgot about RJ saying that, How would this destruction occur though, would it destroy the wheel? would BF'ing the dark one cause some kind of irreparable paradox? Because i still maintain that he has no Thread to Burn, even if it can still effect him. Because if he did have a thread why would he be so intent on destroying the one thing that gives him existence? perhaps he wishes to be free from the repetitive cycle?

 

Even assuming the Dark One lacks a thread, he's touched countless other threads and played a massive role in shaiping the pattern.  Rand the other ta'avaren react to him, the Foresaken do his bidding, Trollocs kill on his orders, etc.  So burning the Dark One out would impact their threads and cause chaos because all those threads would be out of order.