No, Balefire Does Not Work Like that. (-- 2009 Empy Award Winner!)

[richnewton82]

.

[Nightstrike]

There are lots of views on what the reality is. I'm part of the tiny fraction of all people that think that the souls are all that really exists, and the world we live in is just "experiences". George Berkeley. People think that he has been proven wrong. He hasn't been. People use to get frustrated with me when I mention my view on reality.    

:(

 

Of course, that won't stop me from using terms and "laws" that determine the world we "live in". Light speed, gravity, time, Balefire, Gateways... Ooops, those last two were WoT.  

:P

 

[BrainFireBob]

You remind me of O'Brien talking to Winston in room 101.

 

That's because O'Brien is correct. I nearly mentioned 1984 actually in that post but I didn't think people would understand. Thank you for the complement!

 

As O'Brien said, the past doesn't exist. The past is perception only. There is no saved state of the universe for yesterday. It is gone forever. You cannot rewind time because there is nothing to rewind. All that exists is now. The past is an illusion created only by consensus of perception. Wilson is the one who is insane in the book. He thinks the past is real. So real that he is willing to disagree with everybody else in that his view of the unalterable past is real and everybody is crazy. Don't you understand how powerful that book really is? The character most people think is insane - O'Brien - is actually right and the one everybody thinks is sane - Wilson - is wrong!

 

The idea that time is linear is a misconception. The perception of time creates a linear situation but in reality, time doesn't exist at all. And as physics will come to realize within a few years, distance doesn't exist either. The best analogy for that is a MMORPG or any other video game. Characters within the game world may exist x distance apart and it may take y time to travel that distance at Z speed but really all of those "things" are illusions. The computer on which they exist is really a CPU which is about a cubic centimeter in size. As computer power and programming languages become more powerful, we will be able to create worlds of incredible depth and which have all of these things but will actually be illusions generated by an impossibly small cpu. Extrapolate that out and you get the Universe as we know it. I'm not saying that the Universe is a video game or anything like that. I'm saying that the universe is actually a single particle being viewed from an infinite number of vantage points. This creates an illusion of distance which creates an illusion of time which creates an illusion of velocity and acceleration. They are all biproducts of our perception.

 

 

You are either delusional or ignorant, and I say this as a professional in the subject matter.

 

Nightstrike at least has the excuse of imposing physical limitations of our universe as facts on a fictional- the reason, Nightstrike, that we cannot achieve the speed of light has to do with the energy barrier, we simply can't generate enough free energy. This limitaiton is removed in a universe where magic is a possibility. Which is why it is relevant to the Wheel of Time, and I am sorry if this is inconvenient for you.

 

As to you, richnewton: You are young, perhsaps a college student, and definitely your local intellectual big fish, and consider yourself well-informed,having read and- you believe- understood texts by Einstein and Hawking. Yet your statements are false. A little education:

 

What you are arguing with respect to the past is Descarte's "little demon," the beginning of his penultimate "I think, therefore I am" argument. This is a well-known topic in logic, and has been intermittently addressed since Plato (with the allegory of the cave) to more modern times- the Pragmatists and the Logical Positivists. You are confusing discourse on the nature of subjective reality with objective reality. Discussions of time travel are based on objective reality, not subjective perception of reality, which is individualized to the person so perceiveing. That is what 1984 is referencing.

 

This is irrelevant to discussions of time travel. Time does exist as a dimension, with objects having a specific location within them- what Einstein actually demonstrated was the the distance traveled by an object within time was relative to its speed, hence relativity- the same applies to distance, leading to the Lorentz-Einstein transforms for calculations between frames of reference, which is what the discussion is actually about. From your answers, I doubt you even have a rudimentary understanding of frames of reference.

 

You are sloppily mixing these concepts together with your own personal belief structure to create this theory of yours. Unfortunately, to anyone well-trained in the subjects, they are at best amateurish wishes, not well-reasoned theories. Get some education, man.

 

As to time travel, yes, it is theoretically possible to reverse the direction you travel in time- this in fact is part of the transition created by a wormhole.

[Alannin]

From what I gathered from reading and from several interviews with RJ is that Balefire removes anything it touches from the Pattern, and that the danger of BF is that if enough is used, the weave of the Pattern may unravel.  Cadsuane and others are afraid that Rand would actually destroy the Pattern before the DO even has a chance.  That's why he had to learn to laugh again, and remember his humanity.  Individuals cut from the Pattern with balefire cannot be re-threaded into the current age, but will be re-spun in the next.  As such, they are beyond the Dark One's reach, since removal from the age lace makes it like they never existed.

[Nightstrike]

Nightstrike at least has the excuse of imposing physical limitations of our universe as facts on a fictional

!!!!!!!!!!!    .....

No, I am not imposing anything. I said that your try of imposing physical laws of our universe as facts on a fictional was irrelevant. Trying to turn everything around, are you? I said that only Balefire was relevant, remember?

 

- the reason, Nightstrike, that we cannot achieve the speed of light has to do with the energy barrier, we simply can't generate enough free energy. This limitaiton is removed in a universe where magic is a possibility. Which is why it is relevant to the Wheel of Time, and I am sorry if this is inconvenient for you.

Yes, that would be a good reason - in the world of "science", as opposed to "WoT" (which has other laws). There are more good reasons than that. Why are you even talking about this? It is irrelevant, as far as Balefire is concerned.

 

 

OP Balefire & TP Balefire would both have resulted in Min keeping her bruises.

 

 

[richnewton82]

.

[WWWwombat]

Besides the physics tangent, I don't get what people are arguing about.  Obviously Min kept her bruises because the balefire wasn't strong enough to go that far back.  As for the relevance of physics, there is some science in WoT, but there is also magic, meaning RJ could violate any physical laws he wanted to :D.  Also, the cosmology that Verin describes with the worlds that might be reminds me of the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics.

[richnewton82]

.

[BrainFireBob]

BS said that since Rand caused the bruises with his own hand, Balefiring Semi had no effect. So it doesn't have to do with strength of the balefire or OP/TP.. I agree though that real life and WOT don't have to have anything to do with each other though. Somebody through out that RJ was a physicist though.

 

If you're a teacher, then you are using horrendous arguments. High School? Are you even a science teacher? How much physics did you actually study? Did you pass? I have told you my credential: I am a physicist. I specialize in gasses, but have an extensive background in atomic trapping and cooling.I have recently begun work in solid state areas. What is your background?

 

This isn't ad hominem- you are misapplying terms. Your understanding of time is false. Time is a descriptor of location, as much as position- it is a dimension through which particles move. Ad hominems are items such as your frequent attempt to denigrate by laughing at individuals, when you are the one demonstrating poor understanding.

 

Nightstrike is arguing that RJ was not recoursing to physical laws. Yet, RJ was in fact a physicist. When we went onto a tangent about the impossibility of time travel, I asserted that it was in fact possible- refuting counter-arguments. Nightstrike, asserting that the WoT is fictional does not negate what had become a real world argument.It is a fictional universe, thus real-world limitations are removed. The only real-world limitation on achieving the speed of light is the energy barrier. I fail to see why you think it is a debatable point. If you wish to pursue that line of argumentation, you cannot argue anything regarding real-world causality nor what effects removing actions would have on space-time, because you've consigned yourself to an author's arbitrary universe, where everything is interpretation and only the author has any right to flatly say someone is right or wrong, in which case you cannot maintain you are absolutely right. Please pick your position.

 

EDIT: Oh my God, you cited Michael Talbot. The man was pseudoscience at its worst. He tried to link quantum physics to ancient mysticism. If you ever want a respectable scientist to listen to you, he's a bad choice as a citation.

 

For your information, the "discovery" he refers to isn't big news of magic or holograms. It's a quantum necessity. Have you heard of Compton scattering? Where a particle might be interferes with where it is. This led to Born's interpretation of the Schrodinger equation. It also, ultimately, led to Dirac's proposal of the multiple universes theorem.

 

What they saw was this, for those who don't know: Breaking a subatomic particle down into its component particles (of opposite charge) without direct observation, yields electrical fields of opposite polarity simultaneously radiating from both containers. Split the containers as far as you want, then open one and collapse its probability function, and the other will also have its probability function will also collapse, resulting in "instaneous" communication- more accurately, this effect is known as quantum entanglement.

 

This concept underlies quantum encryption, incidentally. An outside observer attempting to hack the key collapses the wave function, resulting in only 50% matches. Both holders of the encrypted communication will see it scrambled.

 

Those reminded me of an article I saw claiming that German physicists had created teleportation- by inducing a spread in a light wave resulting in its spontaneous appearance in a distant crystal- it also claimed that Einstein's analysis and modern physics were wrong, when nothing of the kind occured. Both crystals were within the range of the probability function of the wave, so yes, visible quantum tunnelling effects. Quantum tunnelling has been known since the 20s!

[richnewton82]

.

[Nightstrike]

Nightstrike is arguing that RJ was not recoursing to physical laws. Yet, RJ was in fact a physicist.

The Pattern, the Wheel, the One Power that drives the Wheel, t'a'r - none of it has anything to do with the science people study in this world. WoT isn't about physics. Balefire has nothing to do with any science. Except perhaps literary science.

 

When we went onto a tangent about the impossibility of time travel, I asserted that it was in fact possible- refuting counter-arguments.

I'm going against better judgment here... This thread is about WoT... Possible, how? That's the big question that noone has answered yet. You've certainly not explained how it is possible. Maybe they could do it during the Age of Legends, or what do you think?   :-\   I'm actually not all that interested in hearing your answer, but since you keep insisting on building a time machine... lets hear it.

 

Nightstrike, asserting that the WoT is fictional does not negate what had become a real world argument.

No, the only one trying to pull the real world into WoT is you. I've tried to explain that we're not living in WoT. You don't listen.

 

It is a fictional universe, thus real-world limitations are removed.

Then what are you talking about? And why?  ???

 

The only real-world limitation on achieving the speed of light is the energy barrier.

No, that's far from the truth. And why are you talking about this s**t in the first place?

 

I fail to see why you think it is a debatable point. If you wish to pursue that line of argumentation, you cannot argue anything regarding real-world causality nor what effects removing actions would have on space-time, because you've consigned yourself to an author's arbitrary universe, where everything is interpretation and only the author has any right to flatly say someone is right or wrong, in which case you cannot maintain you are absolutely right. Please pick your position.

I'm not pursuing any line of argumentation. I've read the series. I knew what Brandon Sanderson confirmed. You were wrong. I've picked my position. It was the right one.

 

OP Balefire & TP Balefire would both have resulted in Min keeping her bruises.

 

 

 

[WWWwombat]

I don't see how Min's bruises are attributed to Rand rather than Semirhage when the former was being controlled magically by the latter and I don't really see how it matters the way balefire has always been explained previously but if BS really did say that at a signing, that is disturbing.  It almost seems like a retcon to me.

[richnewton82]

.

[WWWwombat]

because balefire doesn't rewrite time. it simply shifts reality at an instant to remove any contradictions. rand choked min. removing semi doesn't force the pattern to remove that situation.

 

Then why did the pattern decide to make Mashadar swallow Sammael up when Rand used balefire?

[richnewton82]

.

[WWWwombat]

I'm not sure I understand but it's been awhile since I read that scene. Can you elaborate?

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/acos/ch41.html

 

RJ said that Sammael was killed by Mashadar.  So either Sammael is as incompetent as Aginor or indirect balefire effects were rewritten.

[richnewton82]

.

[WWWwombat]

You've lost me.. Mashadar ate Sammael.. what does that have to do with balefire?

 

A lot of people believe that Rand balefiring Liah caused Mashadar's movements to no longer be as they were causing it to swallow Sammael before he could react.  Either way I'd like a quote from BS.

[richnewton82]

.

[shadetee]

I really don't understand how people are carrying on this argument over Min's bruises. While the actions of the victim may be removed, the memory remains. Such as Mat recalling the Darkhound slobbering on him, yet there was no trace of it. With Semirhage and Rand, she was controlling his actions but they were still his actions. The memory of the control remains, thus Rand still performs the action.

[WWWwombat]

I just read the scene again and it seems likely Mashadar was about to catch Sammael unawares even before Liah screamed.  What a dumbass.

[WWWwombat]

I really don't understand how people are carrying on this argument over Min's bruises. While the actions of the victim may be removed, the memory remains. Such as Mat recalling the Darkhound slobbering on him, yet there was no trace of it. With Semirhage and Rand, she was controlling his actions but they were still his actions. The memory of the control remains, thus Rand still performs the action.

 

If Semirhage is causing something by her will it cannot be thought of as solely Rand's actions.  It seems balefire might do funny things to causality though.

[Robo-Hillbilly]

I do seem to remember that Rand was able to control the pattern burn of his Balefire by the length of the blast.

 

First example, while BFing the Hound attacking Mat, he turned the heat up to burn the thread back (minutes) far enough the hound only tore into the door but not through it to get saliva on Mat. He burned it back minutes without any aid of angreal or drawing a lot of power just used a longer blast.

 

Second, After Morraene warned him about BF and as all the hounds were attacking the group, he toned down the BF to short beams to blast them only a bit (Microseconds) out of the pattern. Quick effective and not much damage to the pattern.

 

Third, Rahvin was blasted with a long and huge blast to before the strike on Avi Mat and Asmo. Needing a large amount of Sadin and it had a greater affect on the pattern.

 

Finally, the blast he used on Liah at SL was not a huge massive amount of power but was long enough to burn her back weeks to when she was lost at SL.

 

I also do remember BF affecting inanimate objects. The Black Ajah with the BF rod blasted areas of the palace (Stones and columns to before they were errected causing the remaining objects to fall. It also does not describe her drawing a large amount of OP but the blasts were long almost continuous.

 

The description of the blasts on Semi and Elza are similar to the pack of hounds. Short blasts not long ones like Rahvin and Liah. So Semi and Elza were just removed from the pattern a few seconds not enough to affect what previously happend to him and Min.

 

The Attack on Grendahl and the palace was a wide bar of BF (probably requiring massive power), but not a long blast. He covered alot of area but dropped the blast rather quickly, not burning the threads back more than a few hours at most. Just enough to verify with bucekthead (forgot his name) probably left no hole where the palace was only grass and shrubs like nothing was there before

 

just my .02

[BrainFireBob]

I teach math so I've taken plenty of math and science in my lifetime. Probably not as much science as yourself of course (probably more math though) but enough to get by on the topic without being overwhelmed (made it through chem, ochem, bio, and physics intermediate series). You did resort to ad homs. You told me to "get an education" and now have told me that I'm using terrible arguments for a teacher but you aren't countering any arguments at all. You have said only 2 vaguely scientific things: lightcones and wormholes. As I said before, most scientists consider the idea of time travel with a lot of skepticism. And rightfully so. You haven't elaborated or debated the issue. You've told me I'm wrong and that reverse time travel is possible. If that's all you're going to offer on it that's great. Even wikipedia (not a great source) talks about the fact that debate continues about the nature of time. Some consider it a fundamental principal (thus, Newtonian Time, ironic since that's my name) but others disagree. We cannot say for certain.

 

And yes, I agree that Talbot's arguments about mysticism are complete nonsense but the argument of a holographic universe (Bohm's argument really) was the important one because I think it will lead to the understanding that distance is just as much an illusion as time. It also resolves issues with quantum gravity.

 

Anyway, as for the topic at hand, I'm glad that BS came out and resolved the issue. I would have been pretty disappointed if the scene was miswritten and had to be edited later on. I think that this form of balefire makes more sense from a plot perspective than a time rewind and rewrite form of Balefire would.

 

Actually, you've acted smug and condescending throughout most of the threads.

 

As to mathematics, I've covered everything through Fourier analysis via straight calculus, including chaos thoery, and I've done about two years of statistics. Dealt with linear algebra for two years, as well. I imagine my math education is at least equal to yours.

 

And accusing me of only mentioning "two vaguely scientific things" ignores Compton scattering, quantum entanglement- I was not throwing these terms out for fun. I was waiting on your response- these are specific items that can be used as a basis for elucidation. I could, I suppose, have left it at "Dirac's multiple universes theorem, which Jordan has apparently used as part of the basis of WoT (Portal Stones), provides a mechanism via which lateral shifts of the Pattern could occur"- but since I'm likely the only one who understands what the hell I mean by Dirac's multiple universes theorem on this forum, that wouldn't exactly prove useful, now would it?

 

Now, Nightstrike: I suggest re-reading the thread. Your defensiveness about "this magic time travel machine", combined with your "yelling" about the nature of OP vs. TP balefire, seems to indicate you have me confused with someone else. Namely, that I never took part in the latter discussion.

 

Fact is, sufficient energy allows achieving the speed of light. This energy needs to be virtually infinite, but this is a magic universe, so no worries there. At that reference frame, time is instantaneous. Transition out of that frame of reference should allow transition out to any point within time.

 

Now the bruises matter because Rand was the puppet, Semirhage the puppetteer- but there was no pulling of strings. BS was aware of the problem, and made his choice. That's a bit different than saying it's consistent with how Jordan always wrote it. But there you go.

[Nightstrike]

Now, Nightstrike: I suggest re-reading the thread. Your defensiveness about "this magic time travel machine", combined with your "yelling" about the nature of OP vs. TP balefire, seems to indicate you have me confused with someone else. Namely, that I never took part in the latter discussion.

 

Fact is, sufficient energy allows achieving the speed of light. This energy needs to be virtually infinite, but this is a magic universe, so no worries there. At that reference frame, time is instantaneous. Transition out of that frame of reference should allow transition out to any point within time.

 

Now the bruises matter because Rand was the puppet, Semirhage the puppetteer- but there was no pulling of strings. BS was aware of the problem, and made his choice. That's a bit different than saying it's consistent with how Jordan always wrote it. But there you go.

You and I are not living in WoT. I've told you too many times already.

 

There was no problem. TGS is consistent with the other books in this series.