Rand's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[JenniferL]

Somebody said there was confirmation it was Justice. I don't know how they got that confirmation though.. its nowhere in TGS.

 

My confirmation comes straight from Team Jordan. It's not in the text. It's not just Justice though. The description of the sword matches that of the sword Brandon received from Jordan's collection.  I've caught at least three other instances of "fan service" in this book. It's kind of fun seeing references to so many people I know in a book that means so much to us.

[richnewton82]

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[JenniferL]

Honestly, I don't know. And I suspect that if I did know, I wouldn't be able to say.

[richnewton82]

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[Bob T Dwarf]

Keep it up, rich, you're gaining on her.  This time she only suspects.  Last time she knew for certain. ;)

[Ged]

My highly male brain denies the possibility of there being 'too much power'. Certain amounts of power may be too much for certain individuals to handle.

 

.. Considering the CK allowed Saidin to be cleansed, I think they proved their value, whether or not there were obvious prophecies about them. Heck if there was misdirection in the prophecies and a lack of stress towards them so that the Shadow would be less aware of their intended use, that would be a good thing.

 

.. Now of course, Callandor is automatically more important, on account of there no longer being a choice.

 

Seriously though, he could've done so much with the CK. He could've cowed Tuon with a nuclear class display (turn the sky to fire above a city, with the obvious implication that the altitude could be different, and most people should be cowed). He could've burned half the Blight and in so doing annihilated half of the Shadow's hidden forces...

... and other stuff that hasn't come up yet..

 

I'm always amazed when fictional characters (and their writers) start talking about 'too much power'. If the world is dying and you're fighting something like the DO: Any amount of power is most likely 'too little power'.

[coteaz]

Rand says specifically that beating the dark one isn't going to be about power. And the CK even though yes he could have done those things, it was way too much power for him to control, for anyone for that matter, by doing those things he could accidentally destroy the planet. And i agree that that is 'too much power' and agree with him destroying it.

[mike2R]

You know, I've never been 100% happy with the "laughter and tears" explanation for Min's viewing.  And now that what has happened is so personal to Rand and hasn't effected the Ashaman, and that while admittedly he nearly tried to destroy the pattern :) Min's comment of "you're not going to like it at all" still doesn't seem like it fits quite right to me...

 

Could it be something completely different?

[Ged]

At this point, Rand has no idea how he's going to beat the DO, so ruling out the CK is insanity. Against the DO, there is no such thing as 'too much power' - that's just thinking on a smaller scale. Like an ant trying to work within its usual means while fighting a human.

 

The power channeled through the CK was not inherently uncontrollable. There was no chance of 'accidentally destroying the planet'. There was a chance of 'intentionally destroying the planet'.. but there are other ways to do that also. Going balefire happy might be enough to do that. Do it in a hidden place and no one might ever know to stop you before its too late.

 

Rand may have thought that it was too much power for himself - on the assumption that he lacks self control and just can't be trusted to use power wisely. But again, under the circumstances, it was ridiculously dumb. In the real world, I'd consider it a truly horrible decision. In a story where he is assured victory, I suppose its okay.

 

@mike2R: Might just be all the suffering and having to tolerate Cadsuane and not consider himself a god all the time, that he was supposed to consider painful. What Cadsuance had to teach might not have been just one 10 min lesson.

[coteaz]

But at that stage he did lack self control, he almost unraveled the entire pattern. And the OP at this present stage has been proved to be useless against the DO, so having that much power against him is pointless, and he also removed the temptation to use it in the first place.

[Ged]

He was unstable for 5 minutes. Otherwise, he had it for quite a while and there were no problems.

 

... and that is besides the basic point that there is no way to be sure 'what if anything' can defeat the DO.

 

Even the AoL female Aes Sedai's containment idea - which would buy some more time to deal with the DO... could have some merit, when you haven't found a way to deal with the DO yet.

 

Otherwise... could be that a GODLIKE amount of balefire could kill the DO. That power could again, also be used to solve any number of other problems... like the extermination of shadowspawn in the blight and saving countless lives.

 

As well say that being able to channel the OP is already having too much power.

[coteaz]

Yeah well, the reason it wont work on the DO is because he will instantly corrupt it. Even if it was for 5 minutes, he did realize the danger of having the CK, even if it was only slight. So balefire wont work on the DO due to instant corruption, and hes probably immaterial anyways.

 

But yes i agree with you that he should have killed all the shadowspawn, but what would have happened had he done that? There is always a CAUSE and EFFECT for everything that happens in randland.

[mike2R]

@mike2R: Might just be all the suffering and having to tolerate Cadsuane and not consider himself a god all the time, that he was supposed to consider painful. What Cadsuance had to teach might not have been just one 10 min lesson.

 

Yeah possibly.. maybe even probably.. but:

 

It's Cadsuane. She is going to teach you something, you and the Asha'man. All the Asha'man, I mean. It's something you have to learn, but I don't know what it is, except that none of you will like learning it from her. You aren't going to like it at all.

 

They all have to learn it.  They all won't be happy about it.  At all.  It just doesn't seem right to me.  The Ashaman are a hard bunch yes, but every single one so hard that they need the same lesson Rand has had.  It just doesn't sit quite right with me.

 

What could effect them all.  Something to do with the power is the only thing that really seems to fit.  If Saidin isn't really clean (although I don't think so), or somehow winning the last battle will mean removing the OP from the next age (I will personally throw the book across the room if this happens :) ), that would fit.

 

Maybe barking up the wrong tree, and thinking of those alternatives I actually hope I am, but I've never been happy with the laughter and tears explanation, and I'm less so after the last book.

[Ged]

Being touched by balefire might not be the same as being touched by weaves of the power, and actually touching Saidin. Gateways for example were described as being created by the OP but only upto a certain point beyond which their nature was dependent on Randland physics. If someone opened a gateway into the sun and let the fire reach earth, the fire wouldn't be based on the OP either.

 

My main objection is:

1. Its too early to say what is needed to beat the DO.

2. Thinking yourself untrustworthy to handle large power is lame (not that Rand isn't lame, but still..)

 

As for destroying the shadowspawn... it would leave the DO stuck with using other resources instead of Shadowspawn (and using a godlike amount of fire, as opposed to something else.. like controlled earthquakes), would raise the energy in the atmosphere of the planet, likely causing massive weather disruptions.

I wouldn't imagine a random meta-physical side-effect though.

[coteaz]

LOL he could create a massive weave of air and choke all the trollocs to death.

[Ged]

Power is unfortunately only as awesome as the wielder :P

[coteaz]

too true.

[BrainFireBob]

Two quick points:

 

One, to the gentleman thinking that the Lion Throne was the key to winning the last battle- that was Elaida's foretelling, made when Tigraine was Daughter-Heir. Now, Elayne, Gawyn, Galad- they are all importnat. But Rand was the direct offspring of that royal branch, and Elaida's sexism made her unable to even consider such a thing.

 

Two, in this book we see Rand have the ability to make things happen due to his ta'veren nature. He might be able to will the Bore closed using those abilities- his channelling simply being something to keep him alive until he can do so. LTT may not have been enough on his own- this might be the edge Perrin and Mat provide.

[Ged]

That's actually an interesting possibility. I'm not sure Rand fully understands how to use his ta'veren abilities or can use it as if it were channeling (to create very definite effects)

 

As for the Andoran bloodline having its place. Seems Rand, Elayne, Gawyn, Galad, all have their part to play.

 

[coteaz]

Yeah, my assumption is that, rand, mat, perrin will team up and do some super thread bending to seal the dark one. in combination with various other things of course.

[karehiro]

That's a great insight re: Ta'veren effects and its purpose.

 

I found that ability of Rand's to be a very fascinating observation in this book.  To me it looked like he's actually getting some measure of control over his ta'veren ability; for some reason, like Cadsuane, I had no doubt that if Cadsuane were to have stayed in that room with Rand, she would have had a heart-attack or died in some bizarre manner, all because Rand wished it.

 

Just imagine the significance of that and just how impressive that power is:  We all knew that the Tower was meant to be attacked by the Seanchan, so that meant Tuon would have never under any circumstance acquiesced to Rand's terms for alliance.  It was just flat out written in stone and prophecy that she would have refused no matter what Rand did, because the Pattern had already written the outcome.

 

Yet Rand with this ability nearly rewrote the Pattern itself when he met with Tuon and demanded her support; in fact she was overwhelmed and believed she was about to agree but what came out of her mouth unwittingly was a refusal.

 

I can only imagine what will happen once Rand, Perrin, and Mat are all at the same place (especially with Mat's luck), fighting for the same cause with Rand's control over the ta'vereness aspect of their ability.  The Pattern itself will effortlessly write to their direction and no force would stand a chance.

[coteaz]

We hope thats what will happen.

[karehiro]

Oh and this was brought up in another thread, but I think it's more appropriate here:

 

I am SO glad Min finally brought up what many people have been thinking throughout the series in that people should stop trying to control Rand.  Someone really needed to say this and I'm glad it's one of my favorite female characters with common sense who does it.

 

As long as any Aes Sedai/Forsaken/ally/anyone continues to try to control the Dragon Reborn, they deserve all the failure and scorn they can get.  The Dragon is meant to roam free and "ride on the winds of time", and that doesn't include falling under the control or influence of anyone else.  The sooner these people can get it through their skulls, the better.

 

On that note, I wonder if Egwene still believes she and her Aes Sedai have the duty to "guide" the Dragon Reborn.  As far as I'm concerned, the only Aes Sedai meant to guide Rand is Moiraine (and Nynaeve and Cadsuane after a fashion, though for me I see it as more of a "partnership" than anything else).

[coteaz]

I couldn't agree more. I wonder what effect moiraine will have on rand when she reappears.

[karehiro]

That's a moment I've been waiting for more than anything else in the series since she "died".  I have no doubt it will be epic and one of the top moments of the entire series.

 

I bet RJ/Brandon Sanderson will give her the best entrance for maximum effect too, since apparently Rand doesn't stand a chance of winning without her.

 

On a different note, anyone else wondering if *she* has been or will be reborn in that Age?  Apparently the Dragon lives in order so that he may correct his previous mistakes and so that he may meet "her" again (presumably the reincarnations of Illyena).  Wouldn't that be hilarious if she was reborn and out there while Rand still has his 3 love interests.  I wonder who he'd choose...