Prologue, Chap. 1-50, Epilogue

[richnewton82]

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[Nightstrike]

I have.  I've quoted directly from them.  What part of " whatever had been done because of those vanished actions also had no longer been done." don't you understand?

I've explained about the Aes Sedai and them not being omniscient. We KNOW what happens after people get BFed. Read the series. Again, if you have already read it.

 

 

[coteaz]

Hmm, with the boat issue and nynaeve, the BF hit the rowers, so the boat never rowed after the rowers were erased for 10 seconds or so.

[richnewton82]

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[Bob T Dwarf]

Cool so RJ wrote it contradicting himself and now BS did the same. Atleast they are being consistent in their contradictions.

No.  Jordan was entirely consistent throughout in his use of balefire.  If you think otherwise you are misreading the passages where you think he made a mistake.

 

Read the Darkhound passage.  The hole in the door is smaller after Rand balefires them.  Mat's burns are less extensive and far less serious after he balefires them.

 

Read the Nynaeve passage.  The boat actually sinks closer to the departure dock than it was when the balefire struck.  It takes Nynaeve a few seconds to adjust to the reality being different from her memory.  IIRC, she's also afraid that if she exposes herself, Moggy will pick her off. During that time her half of the boat sinks far enough that she is trapped.

 

Jordan didn't make any mistakes with balefire because he invented it and knew how it worked so intimately.  Sanderson does make an error in the Rand/Semi passages.

[coteaz]

Yeah i totally agree, i couldn't remember the exact quote though, so i just but 10 secs in there as an educated guess.

[richnewton82]

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[Nightstrike]

Yeah, I just read it myself. ACoS, 30. Minutes had passed. Nynaeve stayed in the boat. Her actions weren't changed. Though they should have been. A paradox.

[richnewton82]

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[coteaz]

Why would they have been changed, the balefire didn't hit her, it hit the rowers, and as a result the distance they rowed didn't happen, and there was a hole in the side of the boat, so the boat didn't change, nynaeve didn't change, the distance the boat was rowed did change.

[coteaz]

Why would they have been changed, the balefire didn't hit her, it hit the rowers, and as a result the distance they rowed didn't happen, and there was a hole in the side of the boat, so the boat didn't change, nynaeve didn't change, the distance the boat was rowed did change.

[richnewton82]

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[Nightstrike]

Why would they have been changed, the balefire didn't hit her, it hit the rowers, and as a result the distance they rowed didn't happen, and there was a hole in the side of the boat, so the boat didn't change, nynaeve didn't change, the distance the boat was rowed did change.

That's what we're saying. Actions caused by others beside the BFed do not change. They do the same things as without the BF. Only direct physical actions and channeling by the BFed herself/himself/itself are removed from the Pattern.

 

 

[BrainFireBob]

Assumption.

 

Take Nynaeve. We don't know she hadn't moved, or otherwise adapted to her change in situation. She simply doesn't remember having done so, so it seems to her that things are simply, suddenly, different.

 

Balefire stands outside its own paradox. Therefore, I would argue that the user of balefire, being the source and connected to it, may have a partial immunity to its effects.

 

And rich, stop being an ass. You aren't smarter than us, or more educated, so stop being condescending and patronizing. It's not impressing or intimidating any of us.

[richnewton82]

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[Bob T Dwarf]

^ that's the point. If its cause and effect then those minutes would have transpired differently. Rather than sitting there then suddenly being underwater, Nynaeve would have felt the boat get cut in half and begin filling with water and moved somewhere - probably to the deck - and jumped out. Instead those minutes don't happen over again. Everything is exactly as it was other than the things the pattern corrected. Since the rowers were not alive during those minutes, the boat could not have moved.  So the pattern shifts the boat's position. Nynaeve didn't change though. She didn't relive that time differently nor did she get moved by the pattern.

 

She sure does experience those minutes differently.  The first time through, the boat is fine and moving along for some amount of time.  Then suddenly it's back where it was that amount of time ago and sinking fast.  At that point in time on the first go-round, Nynaeve was sitting in that enclosed cabin enjoying being rowed around.  On the rewind, at the same point in time, the boat is cut in half and sinking and she's flailing for the surface.

 

Same instant in time.  Two different experiences.

[coteaz]

I was agreeing with you guys lol

[richnewton82]

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[BrainFireBob]

How am I being an ass? I'm arguing a point with good evidence and its getting ignored straight up. I've admitted i was wrong several times just today. Once about men having to lead a circle of a man and a woman and once about the reason Avi wouldn't ask Rand to marry her. I'm not afraid of admiting fault. As soon as somebody presents an argument that negates what I'm saying I'm more than willing to adjust my position rather than ignore evidence.

 

Quote:

 

"sigh. Look, it's simple"

 

etc.

 

Patronizing. Since it's not a spontaneous expression of emotion, you are taking the time to type in little digs. It is . .irritating. Especially when you are wrong. Even when you're right or potentially right, it is irritating.

[richnewton82]

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[Bob T Dwarf]

That's what we're saying. Actions caused by others beside the BFed do not change. They do the same things as without the BF. Only direct physical actions and channeling by the BFed herself/himself/itself are removed from the Pattern.

 

Yes actions caused by others do change as a result of balefire if the others have interacted with the one balefired during the covered interval.  Any of another's actions that are a direct result of that interaction are negated.  Any of that same person's actions that are the result of an action by some third ( or fourth or fifth or ... ) person whose actions are the result of an interaction with the balefired person during the covered interval are also negated.

 

The whole entire chain of effects from anything the balefired person did during the covered interval are negated.  In the case of Semi that would include putting the Domination Band on Rand's neck and all things she thereby forced Rand to do.  And the resulting effects of anything she forced Rand to do.

 

No effect without a cause.  Without the first cause there is no second cause.  Without the second cause there is no final effect.  No Domination Band, no choke. No choke, no bruises.

 

The only residue of the incident would be Rand and Min's memories.

[Nightstrike]

Take Nynaeve. We don't know she hadn't moved, or otherwise adapted to her change in situation. She simply doesn't remember having done so, so it seems to her that things are simply, suddenly, different.

Yes, we do. We have multiple examples of Balefire. They all show us the very same thing.

 

Balefire stands outside its own paradox. Therefore, I would argue that the user of balefire, being the source and connected to it, may have a partial immunity to its effects.

I don't know what you're trying to say here:..."Balefire stands outside its own paradox."? Balefire causes paradoxes in the world. The Balefire itself doesn't suffer any paradoxes. Neither does the BFed. Everybody are "immune to its effects" - if you're meaning the thing I think you are.

 

 

 

Look, guys, there are plenty of examples in the series. We know how it works. You don't have to invent any new rules. Adapt to those we've been given.  :)

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Take Nynaeve. We don't know she hadn't moved, or otherwise adapted to her change in situation. She simply doesn't remember having done so, so it seems to her that things are simply, suddenly, different.

Yes, we do. We have multiple examples of Balefire. They all show us the very same thing.

 

Balefire stands outside its own paradox. Therefore, I would argue that the user of balefire, being the source and connected to it, may have a partial immunity to its effects.

I don't know what you're trying to say here:..."Balefire stands outside its own paradox."? Balefire causes paradoxes in the world. The Balefire itself doesn't suffer any paradoxes. Neither does the BFed. Everybody are "immune to its effects" - if you're meaning the thing I think you are. Unless they are BFed.

 

 

 

Look, guys, there are plenty of examples in the series. We know how it works. You don't have to invent any new rules. Adapt to those we've been given.  :)

 

 

 

And, what some of us are trying to point out to you is that you misunderstand the rules.

 

Jordan followed the rules rigorously.  Sanderson violated those rules.

 

The question is why?  Was it a mistake or is there even more fundamentally different about True Power than we presently know?

[Nightstrike]

I give up. Clearly we've not read the same books. Mine were good reads.

:)

[richnewton82]

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