Body swap??

[Mystica]

I just read some posts in TGS board about a body swap thing between Rand and Moridin? Been finishing my re-read of the last three books recently and I can't remember any body swapping being done by Rand or to him.

 

Could someone fill me in what this body swapping is supposed to refer to? It's hard to follow the line of discussions that include them and I can't seem to find any reference to them (I've started another re-read but am only at book 3 now with this re-read).

[Luckers]

Here we go again. Firstly, the swap is a theory about Rand and Moridin swapping bodies--it has not as yet occured. It is based on my attempt to address the issue of confliction of prophecy. People had come up with any number of explanations that addressed and answered individual prophecies, but the problem was that there were numerous prophecies that addressed the death of Rand. Together, they established a sequence of requirements for that incident. The complete list of those prophecies that are relevent are as follows.

 

EGWENE DREAMING: Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet. [ACOS: 10, Unseen Eyes, 202]

 

Which possibly connects to...

 

EGWENE DREAMING: A man lay dying in a narrow bed, and it was important that he not die, yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness. [ACOS: 10, Unseen Eyes, 203]

 

 

And maybe this too...

 

EGWENE DREAMING: Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him. [TPOD: 15, Stronger than Written Law, 308]

 

MIN VIEWING: three woman standing over a funeral bier with him on it. [tEotW]

 

MIN VIEWING: I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and....one of you dies, and one doesn't. [ACOS: 33, A Bath, 526]

 

MIN VIEWING: [Min]"Rand, I like Alivia, But she is going to kill you." [Rand replies]: "You said she was going to help me die… Those were your words." [WH: 25, Bonds, 483]

 

NICOLA FORETELLING: Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. [LOC: 14, Dreams and Nightmares, 255]

 

Which ties to...

 

WISE ONE DREAMING: Melaine and Bair dreamed of you [Rand] on a boat with three women whose faces they could not see and a scale tilting first one way and then the other.

 

AELFINN ANSWER: He [Rand] knew he had a chance to live, if a seemingly impossible one. If you would live, you must die. [LOC: 26, Connecting Lines, 373]

 

He had been told by those he had to believe. To live, you must die. [WH: 25, Bonds, 483]

 

PERRIN DREAMING: Mat vanished, and it was Rand. Perrin thought it was Rand. He wore rags and a rough cloak, and a bandage covered his eyes.

 

 

Which ties to...

 

MIN VIEWING: a beggar's staff. [tEotW]

 

 

 

In any case, individually there are answers to all. My attempt was to look at what, as a whole, they established. Too me, this sequence layed down a certain set of requirements.

 

ON RANDS DEATH.

 

1. Rand must actually die. Or, at least, some aspect of him (this ties into the definition of death in this world, which i will address later). In any case the language is fairly clear, too clear for it to be a faked death, or just people assuming he's dead in the event that he disapears. He must die.

 

2. This death must be the result of an intentional effort by himself, with Alivia's aid. Alivia will help him die. Alivia will not kill him, she will aid HIM in causing his own death.

 

3. That some aspect of himself must survive that death... and i mean that literally. It must SURVIVE, not just be resurrected or resusitated later. The language is clear, he who is dead, YET lives. The language is concurrent. He is both dead AND alive, not dead THEN alive. Note the Mat prophecy. To die and live again as a part of what was. He died, THEN he lives again. Rand dies, YET he lives. That forbids balefire too, by the way.

 

Now, death in this world is established by the death of the physical body in which a person resides. Their souls do not die at this time, yet they are still termed as dead. This has been shown many times, both in the nature of the Wheel itself, and specifically in the deaths and recycling of the Forsaken. Death=the death of the body.

 

ON THE BODY-SWAP

 

So, with those requirements in mind, lets look at some of the other prophecies, specifically those deal with Rand blending with another man, Rand putting on masks and becoming them, Rand being a beggar, and so on.

 

Now, Rand assumes that Min's viewing regarding him blending with another man refers to Lews Therin, yet at the time Min reacts with disbelief, as if something about that did not sit right with her. I suggest the possibility that it is in fact Mordin that this refers to.

 

The actual facilitating factor of the body-swap is the mental link that Rand forms with Moridin during the incident in which their balefire streams crossed in Shadar Logoth in book 7. Since then, we have seen that link grow increasingly stronger. Moreover, we have seen that the link is apparent when Rand siezes the power. Saidin is the contributing factor of the link, which is likely why Moridin has given over its use entirely, something he never did before in all his three thousand years.

 

In any case by KoD we see that the link has grown strong enough for Rand to actively percieve Moridin, as opposed to a nauseating jumble of perceptions, or a blurry half-image. I believe that it will continue to grow. Then, during the final assault at Shayoul Ghoul, i believe that Rand and Moridin will fight each other, and that Rand will sever Moridin's connection to the dark one, as he did once before. Moridin will draw on saidin, and that will complete the link resulting in the bodyswap.

 

CONCLUSION AND TIE IN

 

Now, thats all very good, and whatnot, but whats the ultimate tie in that i suggested was the reason i constructed this theory?

 

Quite simply, it fits. After this i believe that Moridin in Rands body will escape, and the Dark One will be defeated. In the epilogue we will come to Moridin, hiding as a beggar, feeling despair, yet some hope that he may yet recover things. Alivia and Rand will approach and kill him. Rand is actually dead, in the sense that this world defines death: that his body is dead. Yet he lives, and the death and the living are concurrent. Alivia and Rand collaborated in the death. He blurred with another man, and one did live and one did die. Then there is the fact that i dont see our hero ending up as a beggar at any stage, and then there is the ongoing unhealable damage that RJ is inflicting on him.

 

I dont nessasarily like the bodyswap. I just think it is the only thing that fits all the facts, and is the most likely to occur.

 

[Mystica]

first off, sorry for making you go through this again. I must have missed the previous times.

 

But holy cow.... :o how many hours did you spend contemplating that??

 

in your extrapolations, I get the feeling that you treated each dream/foretelling/vision as if each one referred to one event. What if some of them refer to different, unrelated, events? Like Min seeing him as a beggar and with his eyes covered. Couldn't that be two different events? He changed into a beggar like person when he first went to visit Elayne in the castle at Andor where he ended up being bonded to his three women. I don't necessarily see him turning up as a beggar in Min's vision being linked to Moridin posing as a beggar. I understand your attempt to tie things together as they surely must be at some point, just trying to wrap my head around it and thinking out loud. Sorry (I seem to be saying that a lot when talking to you) if this has been discussed before. You don't need to respond if you don't want to.

 

There's another possibility this body swap theory opens though. It may be a stretch, but bear with me.

 

As you say, Rand and Moridin fight and Rand cuts off Moridin's connection to the Dark One, forcing Moridin to draw on the One Power instead. Following your line of thought, this would trigger the completion of the link between the two, where they would merge fully. Both 'spirits' in both bodies, even if for a second. Now what if... 'Alivia will help him die' means that Rand and Alivia will kill the Rand-body while the Rand-spirit takes controle over the Moridin-body. Rand would die (his body as you said it) yet would live (in the body of Moridin), while Moridin himself is defeated and killed for real.

 

Our hero wins the day, has a brand new body in perfect working order and can go make many more babies with his three wives. ;)

 

[Luckers]

first off, sorry for making you go through this again. I must have missed the previous times

 

That's ok, it's been a while since it was brought up.

 

But holy cow....  how many hours did you spend contemplating that??

 

In truth I need to update this, but I can't be bothered. There is such dislike for the bodyswap theory that people leap all over it the second its posted. It'll happen here, mark my words.

 

That's not to say I think this is definate--I don't really like this idea, and hope it's wrong, but the degree to which people respond against it has made me so tired of talking about it. Every point addressed is re-raised seconds later in great vitriolic detail.

 

I can't be farked. I'll restate it, and let the people cry out. The fact that the theory has survived so many years despite such general hatred speaks for itself. We'll see what happens.

 

in your extrapolations, I get the feeling that you treated each dream/foretelling/vision as if each one referred to one event. What if some of them refer to different, unrelated, events? Like Min seeing him as a beggar and with his eyes covered. Couldn't that be two different events? He changed into a beggar like person when he first went to visit Elayne in the castle at Andor where he ended up being bonded to his three women. I don't necessarily see him turning up as a beggar in Min's vision being linked to Moridin posing as a beggar. I understand your attempt to tie things together as they surely must be at some point, just trying to wrap my head around it and thinking out loud. Sorry (I seem to be saying that a lot when talking to you) if this has been discussed before. You don't need to respond if you don't want to.

 

It is certainly possible that some of those prophecies speak of different things. The bit about Moridin being a beggar is just my sense of retribution at work--the only necassary parts are those that refer specifically to his death. And those must be reguarded as linked. They all speak of the same event.

 

There's another possibility this body swap theory opens though. It may be a stretch, but bear with me.

 

As you say, Rand and Moridin fight and Rand cuts off Moridin's connection to the Dark One, forcing Moridin to draw on the One Power instead. Following your line of thought, this would trigger the completion of the link between the two, where they would merge fully. Both 'spirits' in both bodies, even if for a second. Now what if... 'Alivia will help him die' means that Rand and Alivia will kill the Rand-body while the Rand-spirit takes controle over the Moridin-body. Rand would die (his body as you said it) yet would live (in the body of Moridin), while Moridin himself is defeated and killed for real.

 

Our hero wins the day, has a brand new body in perfect working order and can go make many more babies with his three wives.

 

That's actually the idea I suggest. Rand ends up in Moridin's body, and lives that way. It would explain what was wierd about Aviendha's babies, for instance.

[Mystica]

oh, I missread that then. I thought you meant Moridin survives in that beggar state, then Rand the spirit and Alivia kill him, but I didn't make the connection that Rand would take over the body then. Personally, I don't see Rand floating about for a while as a spirit while Moridin retreats to beggar state. If this happens, it's much more realistic that the taking over, dying and living in another body will all happen in one move. Not spread out over time.

[Luckers]

Yeah, no I meant that Rand would have Moridin's body. Not that it would be a spirity thing.

[Mystica]

After this i believe that Moridin in Rands body will escape, and the Dark One will be defeated. In the epilogue we will come to Moridin, hiding as a beggar, feeling despair, yet some hope that he may yet recover things. Alivia and Rand will approach and kill him. Rand is actually dead, in the sense that this world defines death: that his body is dead.

 

 

that's what got me confused and thinking you meant the Rand Spirit. I was like 'huh, is he going to possess Alivia and then the 'two' of them will kill the Moridin-in-Rand-body ? *scratches head* LOL

 

Clear now though :)

[Bob T Dwarf]

I'm usually the one who jumps on this.

 

Parts I can agree with and parts not.  Rand will die.  My take is that Moridin will again attempt the rip-his-soul-from-his-body trick that he first attempted at the beginning of their battle in Tear.  This time Rand will allow it to occur.  Moridin will then with the DO's help insert his soul into the Rand body.  

 

So, we agree about two key things:

1.  Rand will die.

2.  Moridin will come to inhabit Rand's body.

 

Where we begin to disagree is that I don't believe there will be a two-way transfer of souls.

 

I think Rand dies at this point and the Dragon soul returns to T'a'R.  Just because Moridin might be able to insert his soul into Rand's body doesn't mean that Rand will know how, or even want to inhabit Moridin's body.  He's got far more powerful mechanisms at his disposal.  If the transfer is two-way, then Alivia helping him to die is via her killing MoriRand.  Logain could then achieve his glory by killing Randidin.  Or vice versa.

 

If the Dragon stays dead, he can return to the fray as one of the Heroes whenever Mat sounds the Horn of Valere.  Invulnerable.  Unstoppable.  Triumphant.

 

Or, Nynaeve can find the Dragon soul in T'a'R and cast it out as she saw Moggy do with Birgitte.  Once bonded and recovered, that leaves him with a new, unwounded, unblemished body.  And, with all of the Dragon's memories from all of his incarnations. ( Dusty room with tiny dragons settling into his skin ).  That's chancier than if the Dragon stays "dead" but still provides a way for the Light to win.

 

The smartest thing they could do is to allow the Dragon to remain "dead" until after the battle is won.  Then cast his soul back out into the world and bond him, taking him to Tar Valon to recover. ( 3 on a boat - scales tipping - probably the last scene of the Epilogue of the last book to best fit the Arthur symbology )

[Jemlin]

Hmmm

 

I have to say I forgot about the two points that The Dragon was tied to the Horn as well as the thing MOgh did with Birgitte.

 

I am not sure if Nyneave actually saw how to do that. I don't think it was something done strictly with the One Power, as although Morg shone like the sun with One Power when she did it, Nyn didn't report seeing any weaves.  Its possible she used the One Power to augment her natural Dream abilities, similar to what Egwene did when the Wise Ones put her in childrens clothes.

 

Eitherway, that might be possible, but once again, it seems a little too, well, easy lol

 

[kivo]

I'm usually the one who jumps on this.

 

Parts I can agree with and parts not.  Rand will die.  My take is that Moridin will again attempt the rip-his-soul-from-his-body trick that he first attempted at the beginning of their battle in Tear.  This time Rand will allow it to occur.  Moridin will then with the DO's help insert his soul into the Rand body.  

 

So, we agree about two key things:

1.  Rand will die.

2.  Moridin will come to inhabit Rand's body.

 

Where we begin to disagree is that I don't believe there will be a two-way transfer of souls.

 

I think Rand dies at this point and the Dragon soul returns to T'a'R.  Just because Moridin might be able to insert his soul into Rand's body doesn't mean that Rand will know how, or even want to inhabit Moridin's body.  He's got far more powerful mechanisms at his disposal.  If the transfer is two-way, then Alivia helping him to die is via her killing MoriRand.  Logain could then achieve his glory by killing Randidin.  Or vice versa.

 

If the Dragon stays dead, he can return to the fray as one of the Heroes whenever Mat sounds the Horn of Valere.  Invulnerable.  Unstoppable.  Triumphant.

 

Or, Nynaeve can find the Dragon soul in T'a'R and cast it out as she saw Moggy do with Birgitte.  Once bonded and recovered, that leaves him with a new, unwounded, unblemished body.  And, with all of the Dragon's memories from all of his incarnations. ( Dusty room with tiny dragons settling into his skin ).  That's chancier than if the Dragon stays "dead" but still provides a way for the Light to win.

 

The smartest thing they could do is to allow the Dragon to remain "dead" until after the battle is won.  Then cast his soul back out into the world and bond him, taking him to Tar Valon to recover. ( 3 on a boat - scales tipping - probably the last scene of the Epilogue of the last book to best fit the Arthur symbology )

 

I prefer this speculation to the body swap.

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

Moggy said "there are only nine left living who know that weave" probably meaning the foresaken, and while they all know how to enter the dream world in the flesh, they arent all necessarily dreamers. She says weave, so it is made up completely of the one power. also, it implies that there is a equal and opposite weave which would allow birgitte to be put back into t'a'r.

[Mystica]

Hm, come to think of it, Bob, I think I like your version better too. But only because it is less demeaning to our Hero than having to live in the body of a former forsaken. Though to be honest, I think Luckers might have the closer deal there. There was to be something 'weird' with Aviendha's babes....

[Bob T Dwarf]

Hm, come to think of it, Bob, I think I like your version better too. But only because it is less demeaning to our Hero than having to live in the body of a former forsaken. Though to be honest, I think Luckers might have the closer deal there. There was to be something 'weird' with Aviendha's babes....

 

Done the way I envision, Rand comes out of it with a different body - just not Moridin's body.  So, while Aviendha's children would be the children of Rand's soul they would not be the children of Rand's body.

 

My personal belief is that he  comes back looking like LTT.