Are the Dragon and The Dragon Reborn both part of the turnings of the Wheel?

[bmunge]

It seems like a single turning of the Wheel contains both a Dragon (Lews Therin) and a Dragon Reborn (Rand). Rand cannot be Lews Therin in a second turning of the Wheel simply because they live at completely different times. Lews Therin lived during the Age of Legends before the Dark One was ever freed. He fought a war against the Shadow and sealed the Bore, resulting in the Taint.

 

Rand however, lives at a very different time. He is likely destined to completely reseal the DO's prison and he also has cleaned Saidin. It's likely that the prison Lew Therin believed to be made by the creator was actually made by the Dragon Reborn. I find this interesting because it lends merit to the idea that the Dragon and the Dragon Reborn are completely seperate threads in the pattern. They both have their destinies to fulfill, but they are quite different.

[Owners.Inc]

No, actually, your argument allows enough space for both the Dragon and the dragon reborn to be the same person. remember, no one remembers their past lives, so the Dragon would not remember sealing the Bore as the Dragon Reborn, while the Dragon Reborn may be aware that a Dragon had sealed it, he may not realize that the sealing done before, was also by him.

 

But, yeah, I know what you mean. That's mostly how I've understood it myself.

[Aagaard]

Well the dragon is spun out of the wheel when the pattern requires him. When he is reborn he is the Dragon Reborn. LTT was not the first Dragon, which makes him also the Dragon Reborn.

 

Neither is it necessary for a soul tied to the Wheel only to be spun out once in every turning of the wheel. An example of this is Birgitte who have lived many lives since she fought Moghedien in the war of the shadow. 

 

Off course a lot of souls are tied to the wheel and only one is the Dragon, so he might be spun out only during the great battle of the age.

 

When Mat sounds the Horn of Valere during TGH they all call him Lews Therin, which proves that there are not both a Dragon and a Dragon Reborn. Or if that is the reasons, then different heroes should be tied to the horn for every age.

[OptimusPrime]

I believe that Lews Therin are both from the same turning of the Wheel. Herid Fels discussions with Rand pushed me along that line.

[Cillian]

Off course a lot of souls are tied to the wheel and only one is the Dragon, so he might be spun out only during the great battle of the age.

 

I don't have a quote, but I think RJ said the Dragon soul is spun out at other times too and he's not always a channeler.

[Durinax]

I always thoguht that souls where 'recylced' so torn apart, and then reassembled with different pieces allowing for change in that life. But heroes kept the core of their souls, allowing for the same amount of skills/etc and still allowing for change. But for people like rand he has most of LTT soul inside his, allowing him to remember LTT memories and such but at the same time being his own person

[Germs]

The Dragon and the Dragon Reborn are the same thread by definition. If they were different threads he wouldn't be reborn. He'd be Random Other Important Guy Who Does Important Things. Not the Dragon.

 

Each turning of the wheel spins out a "first" Dragon, (who's not actually first, he's been spun out before, but he's the first of that turning) who does Dragon stuff, then eventually dies. He is then reborn, in the same turning, to do the Dragon Reborn stuff. Then a new turning spins him out again, and again, and again, always in Dragon and DReborn couplets.

[Thorn]

Each time the Wheel turns, it repeats the Ages from the prior turnings, but with slightly greater variations each turning.

 

So the next time the Second Age (Age of Legends) rolls around, there will be a Dragon (and it will be the same soul Dragon, because he's bound to the Horn), but he'll be slightly different -- a different name, different appearance, so forth, and he'll be followed by a slightly different Third Age Dragon -- perhaps one named Arthur instead of Al'Thor, or who'll fight with a spear instead of a sword, or whatever. With each successive Turning of the Wheel the story the Pattern tells will get progressively more and more varied (Maybe the Dragon drills the initial Bore instead of Mierin. So forth) until it's unrecognizable as even the same story. Over and over again, endlessly, until the Shadow finally manages to win one.

 

Rand and LTT are both the Dragon, and the same "soul," but they are different incarnations.