Fun Question - What Would Happen If Mat Diced/Gambled Against Another Tave'ran??

[The Fisher King]

This is just a Fun Hypothetical Question I was pondering this weekend. I originally posted it in another thread, but that thread was really alot more about other stuff, so I put it here...

 

 

But, what if Mat diced against Rand or Perrin?

 

 

Mat's sneaky, but, imo, the chances of him having his head handed to him rise exponentially.

 

 

What do you think would happen?

 

 

One thing to keep in mind is that Mat's amazing results when he gambles may well be among the most egregious misunderstandings among fans...

 

 

Regarding the often Amazing Results of Mat's Exploits, People usually marvel and shake their heads and wonder...''Where does it come from???''

 

 

Folks wonder if the often amazing results of Mat's cards or tosses of the dice come from, maybe:

 

 

1 His 'Luck'?

 

 

2 His Old Blood?

 

 

3 His experience in The Rhuidean Doorway with the Finns?

 

 

4 A side effect of being Tav'eran?

 

 

5 None of these?

 

 

6 A combination of SOME of them?

 

 

Uh, how about 'Nooooo' to all 6 choices, lol.

 

 

And people don't understand that its really not.

 

 

To put it simply, Mat's amazing results at gambling come ONLY from his 'Luck' and Mat's 'Luck' is 100% solely derived from his being probably the 3rd (behind Rand and Perrin) most powerful Tav'eran since Hawkwing.

 

 

This is why Mat doesn't lose at cards or dice to 'regular folk' (interestingly, however, and paradoxically, and ironically, and inversely, games that do NOT rely on chance are games that often seem to overwhelm him - its why he has never beaten Thom (a logical master) at a game of Chess...Errrrr Go....Errrrrr...'Stones lol  )

 

 

Mat's Luck at Gambling comes from his being a Taver'an. Hes NOT 'Lucky'. He never has been. (the fact that he has never before been lucky in his life is even often remarked upon - most notably in Book 3, TDR.)

 

 

But, again, what if Mat diced against Rand or Perrin? (Or any other Fellow Tav'eran, for that matter.)

 

 

You know what I think. (That he'd get Roasted and Toasted, as all the evidence suggests)

 

 

But, what do YOU think?

 

 

Fish

 

 

 

[richnewton82]

.

[FishFish]

Obviously, the dice would come alive and try to brutally kill everyone in the room, before taking over their identitys.

 

 

Realisticly though, Mat would probably win against both of them. Like richnewton82 said, it wouldnt have any effect on the pattern so Rand would have no reason to win, and neither would Perrin.

But there's always the possiblity that it would do something that makes no one win, like stack on top of each other or have them all land on a corner or something strange.

[OptimusPrime]

I think if Rand and Mat played, the only time Rands Ta'veren would alter it would be if the game affected something vital for Rands purpose as a Ta'veren. In a friendly game Mat would win. Even if Rand had no money and felt that he needed some, I think Mat would win unless it was vital that Rand have money at a certain time not long afterwards. You know, the sort of time where we'd see Rand note to himself afterwards "Wow! I took over a hundred gold crowns off Mat in dice games!" and then in the same Rand PoV someone offers a Seal or something extremely vital to Tarmon Gaidon for a hundred gold crowns. And Rand would then realize what had just happened.

[Vanin]

Actually his luck was manifesting itself as early as when he was dicing in that storage room in Sheinar

[richnewton82]

.

[Vanin]

Haha I pnly remember that because I re-read that chapter the other day

[Thorn]

There's more than one point where Rand gambles or makes a random choice and it works out, and he then says "it had to work for me eventually" or similar wording.

 

Rand, Mat, and Perrin were all ta'veren at the start of the series, and experiencing incredibly lucky coincidences right from the start (Moiraine, Thom, etc., all being in Emond's Field at Winternight, etc.)

 

It's just that Mat relies on his luck more, which gives the Wheel more opportunities to weave the Pattern to benefit him.

 

It's also possible that there's some aspect of Mat's particular role within the pattern that makes him especially "lucky," but that's unverifiable.

 

It's probably *not* the dagger -- Padan Fain never seems to have "luck" as a trait (although Fades do have "the Dark One's Own Luck").

 

I also don't think it's proven that Mat and Perrin aren't Horn Heroes, even though Hawkwing didn't talk to them by name. He was preoccupied with Rand/LTT's presence and the Banner. There were a hundred Heroes of the Horn there, after all -- only the leaders, Hawkwing and Rand, were chatting.  Further evidence for Mat being a Hero of the Horn is that he's so clearly Odin, in so many ways -- he's the fact that our current legends of Odin are based on. So he must be a hero of the horn, because that's what the heroes of the horn are.

[Mr Ares]

To put it simply, Mat's amazing results at gambling come ONLY from his 'Luck' and Mat's 'Luck' is 100% solely derived from his being probably the 3rd (behind Rand and Perrin) most powerful Tav'eran since Hawkwing.

Mat's luck comes from the dagger.

 

(interestingly, however, and paradoxically, and ironically, and inversely, games that do NOT rely on chance are games that often seem to overwhelm him - its why he has never beaten Thom (a logical master) at a game of Chess...Errrrr Go....Errrrrr...'Stones lol)

Funny you should mention that. Ta'veren is quite capable of affecting what people do or say. So a game of stones against a ta'veren, or a horserace, or similar, could be affected by the ta'veren. Mat's luck doesn't affect these things.

 

Mat's Luck at Gambling comes from his being a Taver'an.

There's nothing to support that. Indeed, Mat thinks of his luck as being something different to his ta'veren.

Hes NOT 'Lucky'. He never has been. (the fact that he has never before been lucky in his life is even often remarked upon - most notably in Book 3, TDR.)

On the contrary, he says he was always lucky, and the others remember him as always being the lucky one. Firthermore, his luck increased on two occasions after leaving Emond's Field. It came from the dagger.

 

It's probably *not* the dagger -- Padan Fain never seems to have "luck" as a trait (although Fades do have "the Dark One's Own Luck").

It almost certainly is the dagger, the weight of evidence suggests that is so. And there really isn't a credible alternative. Ta'veren runs into problems such as Mat thinking of the two as different, and ta'veren doesn't work in the way his luck does. And Fain is referenced as being by Slayer.

[Thorn]

 

It's probably *not* the dagger -- Padan Fain never seems to have "luck" as a trait (although Fades do have "the Dark One's Own Luck").

It almost certainly is the dagger, the weight of evidence suggests that is so. And there really isn't a credible alternative. Ta'veren runs into problems such as Mat thinking of the two as different, and ta'veren doesn't work in the way his luck does. And Fain is referenced as being by Slayer.

 

Sorry, I just think you're wrong here. "Luck" is repeatedly established at many, many, many places in the books as a trait of those who are ta'veren. Rand's luck does work in similar fashion when he relies on luck (such as picking the Rhuidean symbol from the Portal Stone), but he relies on luck far more seldomly than Mat does. That's why Mat's luck is more noteworthy -- Mat gambles more, giving the Pattern more opportunities to twist chance in his favor. It's also likely that the *particular* nature of Mat's ta'veren status is one that emphasizes luck more heavily -- the *finn refer to him as "Gambler" as an archetypal title, and we know that different ta'veren twist chance and fate in different ways. Perrin has luck similar to Mat's luck -- for example, the map being conveniently available in Knife of Dreams -- but, again, he relies on it less, so it's less evident.

 

There is the counterexample of the Truly Bizarre Coincidences flowering around Rand (all the marriages, deaths, etc.) but that's because Rand is astronomically more ta'veren than Mat, and also serves a different role within the Pattern. Rand's job is to be the Dragon and bring the world back to *balance*; Mat's job is to be Odin/Loki, the Lord of Battles, and luck is part of his mythology (hence the *finn calling him "Gambler" and "Trickster"). They're both ta'veren, but they're different ta'veren and they twist chance in different ways because of that.

 

There are far more references in the series to "the Dark One's own Luck" than there are to luck as an aspect of the dagger/mordeth/mashadar/fain; I don't recall the reference to Fain being lucky made by Slayer, but since even Myrddraal are described by Lan as having "the Dark One's Own Luck," it's probable that if Fain is lucky, the trait comes from his being touched by the Dark One, not from Mordeth.

 

 

As to Mat's own opinion -- I just dont' give that much credit; Mat isn't very self-aware, and he doesn't like thinking of himself as ta'veren, so he discounts the possibility. But he's wrong. The "dice" roll in Mat's head when a major event in the Pattern is about to happen (like his wedding, etc), not when he's more or less connected to the Dagger. Mat's luck also *does* impact what people do and say -- it impacts battles heavily, for example -- it's just more indirect. When the pattern wants him to win a dice game, it just makes the die rolls work out; when the pattern wants him to win a horse race, it makes sure he finds a Domani Razor (and has won enough dice games to afford it).

 

If Rand or Perrin diced as much as Mat does, and actually needed to win the games for the purposes of their role in the Pattern (as Mat often does, especially in TDR/TSR), then they'd win all the time too.

 

Finally, if nothing else, Mat's bond with the dagger has been severed. It damaged him and left holes in his memories, but there's no reason to think it left him with any positive traits at all. Furthermore, Mat's luck started growing significantly *after* his connection with the dagger was severed -- and in proportion as his ta'veren status took hold and he started fulfilling his role in the Pattern. People just get confused because his luck first got really notable right after he was Healed, but that's because the Pattern needed him  out of Tar Valon at that point. It's post hoc ergo propter hoc -- just because Mat's luck hit him hard right after he was Healed doesn't mean the Healing caused it; as discussed above, Mat had always been lucky (he'd always been ta'veren, and a ta'veren who was going to need to rely on luck in the future).  

 

If you insist on his luck deriving from something other than his ta'veren status, you can make a better case that it's the Horn of Valere that gave him his luck, not the dagger. He's at least arguably still connected to the Horn, and there's just as much textual evidence that being linked to the Horn causes luck as there is to think being linked to the Dagger causes luck (i.e., none apart from a mutual association with Mat).

 

[The Dirty Landry]

Mat mentions in TFoH that "A man ought to be able to find a profit in something like that, having events twist themselves around him. Rand certainly had, in a way. He himself had never noticed anything twisting around him except the fall of dice."

 

By this point in the series Mat has finally started accepting what he is. He flat out says here that the only taveren stuff he has noticed about himself has been the dice. After TDR he NEVER mentions anywhere else in the series that the dagger caused his ridiculous luck. Given RJ's penchant for restating things in books, if the dagger was responsible then he would have restated it somewhere in the series. The only reason Mat says he believes it was the dagger in TDR is because he hasn't accepted that he IS taveren at that point. He doesn't even want to admit that Darkfriends and Forsaken are pursuing him until the end of TFoH.

 

In WoT Mat is lucky because the Pattern needs him to be. You have to remember in TDR alone he needed a lot of money because:

 

1. The prices for his and Thoms passage on ship were somewhere around 5-10 Gold Crowns. A pretty hefty sum.

2. Prices in the places they stopped at were ridiculous due to Gaebril and also the Civil War in Cairhien.

3. He needed to use almost all that he had earned in order to gain passage to Tear in order to stop Comar and help rescue the Supergirls.

 

There are many reasons i can point to that require him to earn vast sums of money in order to fulfill his role in the Pattern. There is no basis in fact to conclude that Mat's luck is caused by an EVIL dagger.

 

 

Now back to the question. If Mat gambled with Rand the dice would probably land on the same count every time so that nobody won. If mat gambled with Perrin, I think he would beat Perrin. Perrin's tavereness has more to do with having people follow him.

[Kaznen]

I think if Rand and Mat played, the only time Rands Ta'veren would alter it would be if the game affected something vital for Rands purpose as a Ta'veren. In a friendly game Mat would win. Even if Rand had no money and felt that he needed some, I think Mat would win unless it was vital that Rand have money at a certain time not long afterwards. You know, the sort of time where we'd see Rand note to himself afterwards "Wow! I took over a hundred gold crowns off Mat in dice games!" and then in the same Rand PoV someone offers a Seal or something extremely vital to Tarmon Gaidon for a hundred gold crowns. And Rand would then realize what had just happened.

Going with what Thom said to Tuon about ta'verens it could stand to reason that the only reason Mat wins buttloads of money is because the pattern knows he will need it down the road.  Remember he pays for the Band of the Red Hand out of his own pocket, his dice pays his soldiers' wages.

 

And when he was leaving Tar Valon in tDR he needed lots of gold and fast because of all the expenses he was going to face "down river" and all the way to Tear.

[Thorn]

  Remember he pays for the Band of the Red Hand out of his own pocket, his dice pays his soldiers' wages.

 

And when he was leaving Tar Valon in tDR he needed lots of gold and fast because of all the expenses he was going to face "down river" and all the way to Tear.

 

Yeah, remember that Rand doesn't have the same need to win dice games -- he owns something like a tenth of Cairhien, Tear, and Illian, as per Aiel looting customs, ans his Aiel troops serve for non-monetary reasons.

 

I know there's some discussion of Perrin and taxes, but I can't remember how he funds his armies.

[Mr Ares]

"Luck" is repeatedly established at many, many, many places in the books as a trait of those who are ta'veren.

Yes, but Mat's luck works differently to ta'veren. Ta'veren doesn't always work in favour of the ta'veren. Mat's luck does. It doesn't cause the random stuff we see elsewhere, with Rand, it doesn't affect innocent bystanders, it affects Mat, and Mat alone. Also, ta'veren can change people's minds, make the, say or do things they didn't plan to do. Mat's lcuk can't. It can't make a horse he's betting on win, or another fall. It doesn't affect horses at all. He relies solely on his knowledge or horses. Ta'veren should be able to do that, but Mat's luck works with dice, and cards to a lesser extent. If it was ta'veren, he should be equally lucky at whatever he tried. As it is, the more random, the luckier he is. So it works differently to ta'veren.

 

he doesn't like thinking of himself as ta'veren

But this persists throughout the series. Even in the most recent books, he accepts he is ta'veren, but it is different to his luck. He doesn't discount his luck being ta'veren, so much as he never thinks to link them.

When the pattern wants him to win a dice game, it just makes the die rolls work out; when the pattern wants him to win a horse race, it makes sure he finds a Domani Razor (and has won enough dice games to afford it).

That's not true at all. His luck doesn't affect horses. And he never raced the Razor. His success at horse racing was purely down to his knowledge of horses. And why should the Pattern care that he is lucky at dice rather than cards or horses? Ta'veren doesn't make sense because the luck only affects random things, not concious actions. Luck makes him good at dice but doesn't touch horses. Ta'veren could. If the Pattern is trying to make him rich, why is it only trying to make him rich with dice? He only wins games of chance with his luck, not skill, when ta'veren could affect either. Ta'veren doesn't fit. Nor does the timing, nor does Mat thinking of the two separately. All three together really puts a big hole in the ta'veren theory, and there is nothing against the dagger.

 

Furthermore, Mat's luck started growing significantly *after* his connection with the dagger was severed

His luck first increased right after he picked it up. It changed again after he was severed, so we have two changes in his lcuk, both relating ot the dagger, neither relating to any known change in his status as a ta'veren, him becoming ta'veren made no change to his luck, and prolonged contact with SL has only otherwise been seen in Fain, a man who has develped powers. So it is not unreasonable to say that Mat could as well.

(he'd always been ta'veren

Mat became ta'veren a short ehile before Moiraine arrived in the TR, along with Rand and Perrin. No-one is born ta'veren. So the first increase in his luck, after SL, comes some time after he becomes ta'veren. Becoming ta'veren didn't affect his luck at all. We are specifically told this. The timing doesn't fit.

 

you can make a better case that it's the Horn of Valere

Only if you ignore the evidence. He got lucky after SL. He was lucky in Shienar. His luck was the same on the road to TV. It first increased before he ever set eyes on the Horn, and stayed the same for a long time after blowing it. The weight of evidence suggests the dagger. I've been hammering that into people's heads for more than 40 pages in the other thread, hopefully people here will be more reasonable.

 

After TDR he NEVER mentions anywhere else in the series that the dagger caused his ridiculous luck.

Wrong. He doesn't say the dagger caused it in TDR. That is simply what the evidence forces us to accept. Of course, given RJ's penchant forrestating things in the books, we are conveniently told, throughout the books as late as CoT at the very least, if it isn't mentioned in KoD (there's certainly a mention in one of the two, and in WH) that the luck and the ta'veren are separate. That is restated. Luck isn't ta'veren.

The only reason Mat says he believes it was the dagger in TDR is because he hasn't accepted that he IS taveren at that point.

He doesn't. He questions whether or not the dagger did it, but he doesn't say it did. There's a difference. He does say that he doesn't want to think about it maybe being something to do with SL. He doesn't want to consider the possibility. And he maintains the two are separate long after he has accepted he is ta'veren.

There is no basis in fact to conclude that Mat's luck is caused by an EVIL dagger.

Only if you insist on ignoring the evidence. If you accept it, it cannot reasonably be taken to be anything other than the dagger.

 

his dice

Precisely. His dice. Only his dice. Cards don't work as well, horses don't work at all. Ta'veren could affect either, but despite apparently needing Mat to become rich, it also needs him to become rich by playing dice, as oppposed to by being really good at stones, or winning horse races, or card games.

[Thorn]

Leaving out the points I've already addressed so this doesn't devolve into quote-spam:

 

Ta'veren doesn't always work in favour of the ta'veren. Mat's luck does.

 

Mat's luck works against him fairly often. It makes the wall fall on him at the end of (Lord of chaos?); he finds himself constantly caught in battles all through Fires of Heaven. His luck isn't just dice luck, and you're wrong to assert that; it's also battle luck, and he generally wants to avoid battles. Note that the dice stop rolling in his head at major plot points.  

 

 

 

you can make a better case that it's the Horn of Valere

Only if you ignore the evidence. He got lucky after SL. He was lucky in Shienar. His luck was the same on the road to TV. It first increased before he ever set eyes on the Horn, and stayed the same for a long time after blowing it. The weight of evidence suggests the dagger. I've been hammering that into people's heads for more than 40 pages in the other thread, hopefully people here will be more reasonable.

 

You could make the same argument that Mat's luck derives from his proficiency with juggling, which he picks up at about the same time. There is no textual evidence whatsoever to associate the dagger with luck apart from timing, and massive textual evidence pointing to an alternate explanation (ta'veren). The books state repeatedly that ta'veren are lucky, from many authoritative sources. The only points that associate the dagger with luck are mat's own suppositions, and those aren't reliable.

 

You also keep shifting the "timing" argument back and forth -- sometimes you're arguing that the dagger caused the luck because he got lucky after it, sometimes you're arguing that Mat was lucky before he got the dagger. If Mat thought he was lucky before the books even started, that doesn't really support anything (except the theory that Mat is optimistic).  

 

his dice

Precisely. His dice. Only his dice. Cards don't work as well, horses don't work at all. Ta'veren could affect either, but despite apparently needing Mat to become rich, it also needs him to become rich by playing dice, as oppposed to by being really good at stones, or winning horse races, or card games.

 

Because Mat represents the archetype of the Gambler within the Pattern; that's why the *Finn call him by name as "Gambler". The differences between Rand's ta'veren chance-shifting and Mat's are because they're different types of ta'veren fulfilling different roles within the pattern.

 

And note that Mat *does* win horse races -- because he knows horses. Which is, conveniently, part of his history within the Pattern. It's always the Pattern, shaping events, it's just doing it in more and less direct ways.

[Aemon raHal]

"Luck" is repeatedly established at many, many, many places in the books as a trait of those who are ta'veren.

 

It's repeatedly said that Luck is a trait of men who can begin to channel.

 

Thats why the Red's were specifically targeting lucky men (during the 'Vileness'?)

 

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

I think if Rand and Mat played, the only time Rands Ta'veren would alter it would be if the game affected something vital for Rands purpose as a Ta'veren. In a friendly game Mat would win. Even if Rand had no money and felt that he needed some, I think Mat would win unless it was vital that Rand have money at a certain time not long afterwards. You know, the sort of time where we'd see Rand note to himself afterwards "Wow! I took over a hundred gold crowns off Mat in dice games!" and then in the same Rand PoV someone offers a Seal or something extremely vital to Tarmon Gaidon for a hundred gold crowns. And Rand would then realize what had just happened.

Going with what Thom said to Tuon about ta'verens it could stand to reason that the only reason Mat wins buttloads of money is because the pattern knows he will need it down the road.  Remember he pays for the Band of the Red Hand out of his own pocket, his dice pays his soldiers' wages.

 

And when he was leaving Tar Valon in tDR he needed lots of gold and fast because of all the expenses he was going to face "down river" and all the way to Tear.

 

Also remember that Mat knows he will win at dice, which is why he went to find games. Dice games are the best way to restate the nature of Mats luck and how it differs from the others, especially when Mat cross-references his dice luck against his experiences with card games. If the Pattern so desperately wanted Mat to have money, he'd be winning games of cards and pretty much everything he plays. Mat himself notes that his luck doesnt work with cards and his PoV shows that he understands why. Cards are not random. Nobody can shake that one off, if Mat having money was vital to the Pattern it would not limit his winning streaks to dice. No way. Card games could easily be manipulated by the Pattern if it was necessary. The person shuffling the cards would just happen to end up stopping when the deck is in the right order for one person to get the best hand. We have seen Mat take notice of this, and understand that it is true. This is why his luck isnt Ta'veren. There are a million different ways Ta'veren would hand him money, not just with the same type of game.

 

My belief is that Ta'veren put Mat on the path that would lead him to get his different luck. Not the cause of the different luck itself.

[The Dirty Landry]

Ares you don't even bother talking about the quote from TFoH, where he talks about being taveren and the only thing he's seen related to taveren is his twisting of the dice.

 

I can debate the rest, but there is no point until you can refute the actual quote.

[Kaznen]

I think if Rand and Mat played, the only time Rands Ta'veren would alter it would be if the game affected something vital for Rands purpose as a Ta'veren. In a friendly game Mat would win. Even if Rand had no money and felt that he needed some, I think Mat would win unless it was vital that Rand have money at a certain time not long afterwards. You know, the sort of time where we'd see Rand note to himself afterwards "Wow! I took over a hundred gold crowns off Mat in dice games!" and then in the same Rand PoV someone offers a Seal or something extremely vital to Tarmon Gaidon for a hundred gold crowns. And Rand would then realize what had just happened.

Going with what Thom said to Tuon about ta'verens it could stand to reason that the only reason Mat wins buttloads of money is because the pattern knows he will need it down the road.  Remember he pays for the Band of the Red Hand out of his own pocket, his dice pays his soldiers' wages.

 

And when he was leaving Tar Valon in tDR he needed lots of gold and fast because of all the expenses he was going to face "down river" and all the way to Tear.

 

Also remember that Mat knows he will win at dice, which is why he went to find games. Dice games are the best way to restate the nature of Mats luck and how it differs from the others, especially when Mat cross-references his dice luck against his experiences with card games. If the Pattern so desperately wanted Mat to have money, he'd be winning games of cards and pretty much everything he plays. Mat himself notes that his luck doesnt work with cards and his PoV shows that he understands why. Cards are not random. Nobody can shake that one off, if Mat having money was vital to the Pattern it would not limit his winning streaks to dice. No way. Card games could easily be manipulated by the Pattern if it was necessary. The person shuffling the cards would just happen to end up stopping when the deck is in the right order for one person to get the best hand. We have seen Mat take notice of this, and understand that it is true. This is why his luck isnt Ta'veren. There are a million different ways Ta'veren would hand him money, not just with the same type of game.

 

My belief is that Ta'veren put Mat on the path that would lead him to get his different luck. Not the cause of the different luck itself.

With cards he still wins more often then not(there is still a heavy random element) and he always comes out ahead.  But the stakes are much higher in card games then dice.  So he wins the money he needs faster.

[Mr Ares]

Mat's luck works against him fairly often. It makes the wall fall on him at the end of (Lord of chaos?);

ACoS, and that's not his luck.

he finds himself constantly caught in battles all through Fires of Heaven.

Not his luck.

His luck isn't just dice luck,

It only affects random things, nothing that can be controlled. Ta'veren can affect matters of concious choice.

 

There is no textual evidence whatsoever to associate the dagger with luck

There is, you're just ignoring it.

and massive textual evidence pointing to an alternate explanation (ta'veren).

Nothing points to ta'veren. Indeed, RJ has taken pains to show them as separate and distinct.

 

You also keep shifting the "timing" argument back and forth

No, I don't. Mat was always lucky, thenhis luck imporved after SL, then his luck improved again after the Healing. He first became ta'veren shortly before the beginning of the series, back in the TR. His initial luck thus came before ta'veren, becoming ta'veren resulted in no change to his luck, and there were two changes to his luck some time after he became ta'veren.

If Mat thought he was lucky before the books even started, that doesn't really support anything

Well, if his luck was there before ta'veren, then that can hardly be the explanation, can it?

 

Because Mat represents the archetype of the Gambler within the Pattern

So being an archetypal gambler means that he's not much good at many forms of gambling?

And note that Mat *does* win horse races -- because he knows horses.

Exactly - nothing to do with ta'veren. This is something ta'veren could affect, but Mat's luck doesn't. Even though it is gambling.

It's always the Pattern, shaping events, it's just doing it in more and less direct ways.

You give an awful lot of credit to somethingt that's non-sentient, that RJ described as a "fuzzy-logic" mechanism. It knew Mat was going to be ta'veren, so it made him knowledgeable about horses so that he would be able to win at horse races even though ta'veren should be able to affect them....? And your point about Mat being addressed as Gambler is meaningless - Mat is a gambler. Doesn't mean the Pattern reached down from on high to make him so. Doesn't mean he is some sort of gambling Hero of the Horn. The Aelfinn read people's futures.

 

Ares you don't even bother talking about the quote from TFoH

There's nothing to talk about. It's not relevant. The dagger is the cause of his luck. Sooner or later, you'll accept that or give up.

 

he always comes out ahead.

He doesn't always come out ahead even at dice, and his luck is better with them than it is with cards.

[Thorn]

 

With cards he still wins more often then not(there is still a heavy random element) and he always comes out ahead.  But the stakes are much higher in card games then dice.  So he wins the money he needs faster.

 

Yes, the quote is  ( I think it's in TDR) that Mat has figured out his luck works *best* with dice, but that he still comes out ahead over the long term in other forms of gambling as well, including cards and horses. The more random it is, the better his luck functions (because more random events are more easily twisted by the Pattern) but he does have positive luck at cards, horses, etc. also.

 

Note furthermore that having a slightly-less-dramatic win ratio at cards makes it possible for him to play with the nobles, who won't play him at dice at all after a while. But they'll still play him at cards -- and still lose, and lose more to him over the long term, because the nobles in the stone of tear play cards for higher stakes than peasants dicing.

 

There are a few hints here and there that Mat's luck *might* come from the dagger (just like there are hints that it might come from the Dark One -- basically, at a few points Mat wonders about the source of his luck, and supposes the Dagger and supposes the Dark One as possibles), but those are false trails RJ laid so that people would have debates like this. It's ta'veren. There's a reason the dice roll in Mat's head at major plot points, and not whenever he happens close to Padan Fain.

[Cillian]

Yes, the quote is  ( I think it's in TDR) that Mat has figured out his luck works *best* with dice, but that he still comes out ahead over the long term in other forms of gambling as well, including cards and horses. The more random it is, the better his luck functions (because more random events are more easily twisted by the Pattern) but he does have positive luck at cards, horses, etc. also.

 

Mat winning on horses has nothing to do his luck or being ta'veren.

He has a keen knowledge of horses that he got from his father, who is the best horse trader in the Two Rivers.

[Thorn]

 

Mat winning on horses has nothing to do his luck or being ta'veren.

He has a keen knowledge of horses that he got from his father, who is the best horse trader in the Two Rivers.

 

That gets into a chicken-and-egg problem we've all been sort of dancing around, though. I mean, if the Pattern can make Rand be born on Dragonmount as a child of a Maiden of the Spear who is also Andoran royalty, then it can make Mat lucky enough to grow up with a father who's an expert horse-trader.

 

If you want to, you can argue that almost anything is "the pattern" (except "The Dark One's Own Luck," which is the Dark One touching the Pattern).

 

SO it wouldn't be mutually exclusive to argue that, say, Mat's luck was from the dagger AND from his ta'veren nature (making him grab said dagger). But there's just so little evidence outside Mat's suppositions & timing to suspect the dagger as a source of luck, and both those reasons are suspect (mat's suppositions change at different points in the series, and other events happen at around the same times), so there's just not enough evidence for the dagger theory to really make it convincing in the face of a sufficient alternate explanation (Mat's a ta'veren who's specific role is to be an Archetypal Gambler).

[Cillian]

Mat mentions in TFoH that "A man ought to be able to find a profit in something like that, having events twist themselves around him. Rand certainly had, in a way. He himself had never noticed anything twisting around him except the fall of dice."

 

Is that an exact quote? What chapter is it from?

[Mr Ares]

including cards and horses.

It works better with dice than cards, but doesn't work at all with horses. Ta'veren can affect non-random things (like changing what someone is going to say), Mat's luck can't. It works differently to ta'veren. Therefore, it's not ta'veren. If it doesn't look like a duck or sound like a duck - if we are given no reason to believe it's a duck beyond the fact it, like a duck, is a bird - then why say it's a duck?

 

There are a few hints here and there that Mat's luck *might* come from the dagger

And none at all that it might come from ta'veren.

There's a reason the dice roll in Mat's head at major plot points, and not whenever he happens close to Padan Fain.

There's also a reason why the dice are unique to Mat, not something shared with other ta'veren.

 

That gets into a chicken-and-egg problem we've all been sort of dancing around, though.

No, it doesn't.

it can make Mat lucky enough to grow up with a father who's an expert horse-trader.

But that's his knowledge of horses having nothing to do with luck or ta'veren. Ta'veren doesn't come into his knowledge of horses at all. Ta'veren has nothing to do with him winning horse races, although it could. His luck cannot affect horse races.

 

But there's just so little evidence outside Mat's suppositions & timing to suspect the dagger as a source of luck

No reason at all to think it's ta'veren. There's nothing against it being the dagger, and it has more for it than anything else. That makes it the best theory we have.