Moiraine post ToG

[The Dirty Landry]

Do you believe that there will be anything different about Moiraine when she comes back?

 

Lanfear came back with a new body and weaker in the power (although i'm not sure if that wasn't her being resurrected by the DO and not her escaping)

 

Will Moiraine be stronger in the OP? weaker? Will she have asked for 3 gifts?

 

I've wondered if she has some awareness of events in the world while she is there. Its going to take her awhile to get up to speed with all that has happened since she has been gone.

[Charlz Guybon]

She's either been stilled and will eventually be fully healed or she has not been harmed and is as strong as ever. A toss up in my opinion.

 

She probably doesn't have any awareness of the world.

 

EDIT: 800th post!

[sumquy]

That's a good question. No doubt she's been out of touch and needs to be brought up to speed. Doubt she got any wishes after being in a fire fight with lanfear right there in the lobby so to speak. Personally I think the Finn stilled lanfear and then later perhaps killed her for some infraction or other that would exain how she got a new body but moraine is still alive and held. One thing I've always wondered about though is during the battle of shadar logoth cyndane thinks that Alivia is stronger than she was before the Finn held her and then thinks that it's not possible for a woman to be stronger without aid. Wonder if lanfear had ever visited the Finn during the age of legends. "make me as strong as a woman can be" perhaps.

 

Sorry for the mess, on my iPhone at work :-)

[DemandredFO]

My money she will be burnt out because a.  The ter'angreal had a meltdown b.  If she were able to channel I'd think she'd have created fire to blind.  sumquy, I've always wondered about that too, about Lanfear, she just seems to have alot of oddities like making Everyone else feel less, maybe it's just weave but maybe not.

[sumquy]

I agree most likely burnt out won't she be surprised they can fix that now!!! Or maybe not...stupid rings always giving out free foreknowlege. I can't wait to read a reunion between her and Rand. There will be laughter and tears that day I bet you.

 

As for lanfear almost every seen she's in with another woman Jordan makes a point of telling us how much more beautiful lanfear is. Even compared to the wonder girls and I think we know how in love he was with them. Makes me wonder.

[richnewton82]

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[Luckers]

There is suggestive evidence that being burned out can be healed. I'll deal with them in parts.

 

Irgaine, Sashelle and Ronaille

 

The strongest bit of evidence for the idea that being burned out can be healed is in the fact that Irgaine, Sashelle and Ronaille were healed from what Rand did to them. Whilst Rand did it to them, and thus would be termed 'stilling' what he did was not the knife sharp weave described by Nynaeve; rather he crushed weaves they were holding in fists of spirit, essentially overstressing their ability and expunging it in that manner.

 

Given that the distinction between stilling and burning out which everyone holds to be significant for this topic is that burn outs can't sense the source, whilst stilled people can, suggests that burns outs suffer a more complete, and thus less treatable version of being severed. However this information--that stilled people can still sense the source--is directly stated not just as a result of being stilled (as in having someone intentionally sever you), but being stilled by the knife-sharp weave Nynaeve described.

 

Given that what Rand did to those three is functionally much closer to what occurs when a ter'angreal goes wrong (an external source applies too much presure or presure in the wrong way to the channelers ability, thus burning it out) than it does to the weave Aes Sedai use to still people, and given that Sashelle Irgaine and Ronaille were all healed no problem, we do have the basis to suggest burning out can indeed be healed.

 

Egwene; Madness or Method

 

Certainly Egwene and the Rebel Aes Sedai seem to think burning out can be healed, as Egwene states clearly that novices no longer had to fear burning themselves out. That comment may have just being an assumption on her part, based on the healing of Siuan and Leane--yet it seems a remarkable one if it is. Aes Sedai are very aware of the difference between Stilling and Burning Out. You would think someone would have raised the question.

 

And yes, Aes Sedai are given to trusting assumptions without evidence, but that's usually applied to long held beliefs. Paradoxically they are actually quite methodical when it comes to studying something new. Therefore the certainty with which Egwene thinks it could be taken as evidence that the Aes Sedai have concidered this issue, and for some evidentiary reason we arn't aware of now regard it as resolved (say, a novice really did burn herself out, and got healed).

 

Or the Aes Sedai have displayed heretofore unknown levels of stupidity. Whichever.

 

The Pretty Little Doll Factor

 

The final piece of evidence is in Cyndane. Normally I don't go into detail on Cyndane since its so complex--but since the whole subject directly relates to the topic of this thread, I figure why not. To get to the reason why it's likely that Cyndane was burned out and healed by a woman, I first have to cover the other reasons people have suggested along the way.

 

How did Lanfear lose her strength?

 

1. The Cyndane body was not as strong as Lanfear’s in the One Power.

 

This was suggested often when Cyndane first appeared weaker, and at first glance it does hold some merit in that we know it takes the Shadow some time to find suitable bodies to contain their disenfranchised Chosen. However, if this were the case, how was it that Moridin, Osan’gar and most importantly Aran’gar retained their strength and connection to the Source? If Demandred’s thoughts on Cyndane—specifically that her reduced strength made it unlikely that she was Lanfear—then we know that the other Recycled Forsaken strength’s were all exactly the same as what they had been before. Moreover, if this aspect of channeling were a function of the body and not the soul, than how is it possible that Aran’gar still channeled saidin?

 

2. The Dark One purposefully reduced Cyndane’s strength as punishment.

 

We know that Cyndane was in a lot of trouble when she was transmigrated. Attacking Rand against orders, going off on her own, and so on and so forth… so the suggestion was that the decline in power resulted from the Dark One’s anger. Now, even if you accept that the Dark One could do this—and there is no evidence of anything of the sort—this makes very little sense. For starters, Cyndane was immediately bound by a cour’souvra. This ensured complete control of Cyndane by the Shadow.

 

This is where it begins to make no sense. The Dark One has shown that he has a high appreciation of the value of his Chosen’s strength and proficiency at channeling. RJ has even commented on how little he trusts Third Age channelers, so here is the question: Why would the Dark One hamstring himself by weakening Cyndane? At this stage he has total control of Cyndane; she is effectively nothing more than a tool, and it makes no sense for the Dark One to limit the effectiveness of that tool, especially when he has already punished her by trapping her soul.

 

Some people argue that the Dark One is so alien that normal conceptions of common sense don’t apply; and they are partially correct. Yet when it comes to his agenda’s, and his beliefs (that Second Age channelers are more useful) the Dark One is not a fool. There is a pattern of logic that he does indeed follow, and under that pattern it makes no sense for him to have reduced Cyndane’s strength.

 

3. Could the Finns have altered Lanfear’s strength?

 

There have been a number of theories about Finn involvement, including Lanfear making a badly worded wish, her paying for a wish with some of her strength, of Moiraine asking for, and taking Lanfear’s excess strength, but the fact is that all of these are unlikely.

 

For starters, despite the perception of the Finns as magical creatures akin to genies, bound to give three wishes as an innate part of their being, we know that this is not true. The Finns offer a service, a skill that they have, in exchange for something they desire. The nature of the relationship between humanity and the Finns is very much that of a trade agreement—and we know this for a fact. The agreement with humans is something that was reached, not expected on behalf of humans; and based on the Eelfinn we meet who is wearing human skin, the agreement is not something they hold to like some magical law. If broken, they react.

 

Then we have Moiraine and Lanfear. Their arrival not only severs a source of trade that the Finns doubtlessly find highly valuable, but if what occurred on this side of the doorway is any indication then they also caused a rather vicious fire, which as a source of light is expressly forbidden in the treaty. If someone kicked in a merchants door, bringing with them something expressly illegal—and dangerous—then that merchant is unlikely to offer to serve that individual.

 

Beyond that, we also have evidence of the Finns have a dislike for the Shadow—a dislike so strong that they punish people severely who even ask questions that might relate to the Shadow, and here we have Lanfear who is as close to the Shadow made flesh as it is possible to get.

 

And indeed, we even have direct proof of the Finns unhappiness in the fact that Lanfear and Moiraine were both held against there will, and Lanfear later ended up dead. Essentially it is unlikely to the edge of absurdity to expect the Finns to offer Lanfear or Moiraine any wishes.

 

4. Cyndane was severed from the Source, and healed by a woman.

 

This one is a little more convoluted, so I will handle it in parts.

 

The Circumstances in Cairhein

 

When we last saw Lanfear she stood channeling through an angreal that Moiraine clawed out of her hands as they both fell through a ter’angreal which subsequently exploded. From the beginning of the series we have been warned time and again of the dangers of channeling near ter’angreal. Add to that the fight over the angreal and the transportation to a different reality, and the likelihood that they weren’t both burned out becomes slim.

 

Beyond that, at that exact moment Lan’s bond to Moiraine was snapped, and as far as we’ve seen only two things cause a bond to snap—death and the Aes Sedai being severed from the True Source. Since we know Moiraine did not die (as of Knife of Dreams), than that leaves the possibility of being severed.

 

Now, as a side point, some suggest that the bond was severed when the passage between the two realities was severed, and yet there is still a passage between the real world, and the realm of the Finns in existence. Still, there is nothing to directly preclude this as a possibility.

 

A final piece of evidence can be found in the fact that the Finns managed to hold Moiraine and Lanfear (which we know they did between Moiraine’s letter in KoD and Lanfear’s comment in Winter’s Heart). We also know that channeling works against the Finns as a deterent since Rand manages to hold the Finn of with his fiery sword. So, the question is this: If Moiraine and Lanfear weren’t severed, how did the Finns manage to hold them? Both possessed their own angreal, and both would have been at least somewhat aware of how to deal with the Finn’s (fire, music, iron). Indeed, it’s likely Lanfear even knew of the Tower of Ghenjei, and the way out of Finnland. So how did the Finns contain these two powerful channelers?

 

Some suggest the Finns have the ability to break weaves of the Power, as with Mat’s ter’angreal. Yet the presence of the Aes Sedai symbol small as the foxes eye on that ter’angreal suggest it was made by the Aes Sedai for the Finns, not the other way round. Moreover, Cyndane’s shock upon encountering a similar ter’angreal when she was fighting Alivia essentially prove that she had never encountered anything of the sort prior to that event.

 

How did Cyndane Come to be Healed?

 

So, we know that after being held for a time, Lanfear died and was recycled into a new body. From Aran’gar we know that a person’s channeling state follows the soul through the transmigration progress, so if Lanfear were severed from the source, then she would have returned to life still severed from the source.

 

Some claim this would not be the case, citing Robert Jordan’s comment that if a person is severed from the Source they will be whole and complete when they are next reborn, but it should be remembered that the transmigration process is not rebirth, again, as proved by Aran’gar.

 

So, if Cyndane were returned to life severed, how would the Shadow react? At this stage Moghedian had just been brought to Shayol Goul, and even if she didn’t inform the Shadow of Nynaeve’s discovery, the fact that the Shadow knew to rescue her show that they are keeping close eyes on the Rebel Aes Sedai, and the likelihood that such a marvel as a way to heal being severed had not reached Moridin’s ears is very slim.

 

Now this was prior to Finn’s discovery, so the Shadow had no way of knowing that a man would heal a woman to full strength, so the obvious and logical option for the Shadow, rather than leave one of the Forsaken unable to channel, would be to summon a Black Sister to heal Cyndane… for even a weakened Chosen is better than a severed Chosen.

 

From there the function of the healing is easy. A dream message to Aran’gar and a Black ‘Yellow’ Sister sent to Shayol Goul by gateway. It would not have even aroused any suspicion, because as Siuan observes, at any one time up to twenty sisters are off elsewhere in the world attending to other matters.

 

The Discrepancies Between the Loss of Strength

 

The most vehement argument against Cyndane having been severed, and healed by a woman is that Siuan and Leane lost such a large amount of strength, whilst Cyndane only lost a little. But is everything what it appears to be?

 

Firstly, how much did Cyndane lose? We know that she is stronger than Graendal, and that even if Graendal’s beliefs about her own strengths are self-delusions, as RJ suggests most of the Forsaken’s beliefs about their own strength comparative to others are, we still know that Graendal is very strong—indeed, without the angreal Graendal was still stronger than Someryn, who had never encountered anyone stronger than she amongst the thousands of Aiel Wise Ones who could channel.

 

For very rough perception, lets say that Lanfear was a hundred. If Graendal is an 85 or an 80, Lanfear could have lost 10 to 15 units of strength, and still be stronger than Graendal. At 85 there would not be many women the world over who topped Graendal. But is this comparable to what Siuan and Leane lost?

 

Now, the first thing that we must remember in dealing with Siuan and Leane is that there situation is distorted by the Aes Sedai social hierarchy. People speak of them having lost ‘half their strength’ citing their own comments as evidence, but lets actually have a look at what they say.

 

“If Nynaeve couldn’t heal us all the way the first time, then maybe she can take us to two-thirds what we were. Or even half. Even that would be better than now, but still here many would be as strong, and a good many stronger.”

[LoC: 30 – To Heal Again – 617]

 

Now, I draw your attention first of all to the fact that when they speak of returning to two thirds, or half of what they were, they are not speaking of their over all strength, but rather of the strength they lost. Effectively their current strength is zero, and their top strength is a hundred. The two-thirds and half are referring to the gap in between their current strength and their old strength.

 

So, the comment itself is not readily presenting us with an qualitative position on their strength, as people assume. In face, all that we know is that their current strength is bellow the average strength of Aes Sedai in Salidar, and that that average stands roughly half way between their current strength, and their full strength.

 

So, what can we state absolutely about their new strength? Well, as of CoT we can state that their strength is above the cut off strength for becoming Aes Sedai.

 

Akkarin was not strong in the Power, little more than Siuan, if at all, but only one other of the six, Therva, a slim woman in yellow slashed riding skirts and a cloak edged in yellow, stood even as high as she.

[CoT: 19 – Surprises – 459]

 

So we have two women around Siuan’s strength, and four who are weaker. Add Daigian and Elise Worrel and of the twenty-two Aes Sedai we have strength related comments about, six are weaker than Siuan.

 

Why is this significant? Because if Siuan and Leane are still within the range of Aes Sedai strength than a) they did not lose more than half their strength, and b) their strength attains an immediate judgment within the social hierarchy in reference to their old strength and position.

 

Lets take at what that hierarchy and judgment reflects. So, the social hierarchy represents a very limited range of strengths. According to RJ [insert proper quote] the Aes Sedai cut off point is at the 36.2 percentile which establishes the bottom limit for the social range, whilst the upper limit is established by Siuan’s previous strength, where Romanda and Lelaine now sit (note: I exclude Cadsuane and the Wonder Girls because they are outliers; the former is thought dead and the latter aren’t truly included in the Aes Sedai range by most Aes Sedai due to the way they were raised).

 

Again, on a very rough chart lets say for the purpose of consideration that Siuan’s former strength was 60, that means the social hierarchy range includes less than 30% of the range of channeling strengths. Therefore, even a minute loss of strength would result in a fairly large decrease of social standing. If Siuan and Leane lost the same degree of strength as Lanfear (10 to 15 units) than yes, they would experience the loss of social standing stated. Beyond that, keeping in mind that RJ has stated that the Aes Sedai strength distribution is not even it also allows for the average to be roughly half way between their new and old strengths.

 

At this stage many people raise the fact that Siuan was unable to lift Gareth Bryne, thereby proving what a massive decrease in strength she suffered, yet in that exact sentence Siuan goes on to admit that lifting things with the power were amongst the hardest things that could be done. Furthermore, at the end of CoT we see Leane weave Mask of Mirrors, create Cuendillar and disguise her ability all at the same time proving that whatever strength these women lost, they are far from being ineffective channelers.

 

 

Conclusion

 

There is some highly suggestive evidence that despite the fact that burn outs can't sense the source, as stilled people can (thus suggesting that burning out is a more complete form of being severed), they can still be healed just the same. We don't know for sure, however.

[richnewton82]

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[richnewton82]

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[Luckers]

Suian was the Amryllian Seat. And incredibly young. Which meant she was at or very near the top of the food chain in terms of One Power level. Now she can't even lift a person up. She lost more than half her strength. As the passage itself very clearly states. Lanfear lost a small amount of her strength. She may have been healed by a woman but we really don't know (I'm personally doubting this). But your post is 100% speculation..

 

There are twelve entire paragraphs on the issue of the discrepency of loss, including specific addressal of all your points, and that's the extent of your response? One dismisive declarative statement?

 

Incidently you over use the phrase '100% speculation'. Speculation?  Of course its speculation. It's a speculative argument based on events in the text. That's why it's a theory, and not a fact. But 100% speculation? A 'one hundred percent' speculative argument would be 'I think there is a planet named Sansabar were elves live'--it's also called delusion. It's a sidehanded way to try and dismiss an argument, and this is far from the first time I've seen you use it.

 

I'm not saying don't disagree with me, but come on people this is a discussion forum. Let's try to be constructive about rubbing people's faces in the dirt. Your post does nothing to further the thread at all, and frankly makes it look like you didn't bother to read the post before posting yourself.

 

also.. when does Egwene say that novices no longer have to worry about burning themselves out?

 

Somewhere in Crossroads of Twilight. Her exact comment was that it was hard to keep the novices moving slowly now they no longer had to fear burning themselves out.

[paulie]

I think you have way too much time on your hands Luckers, please say you copy/pasted most of that ;)

 

In general defence of your argument regarding Landane losing a little of her strength and Siun/Leane losing a lot of theres.  Perhaps a fixed and absolute amount of strength is lost in the process, not a percentage.

 

We are told early on (but its easily forgotten as powerful channeler after powerful channeler crawls out of the narrative) that the difference between standard Aes Sedai (up to Siuan strength say) and the wonder girls is massive (with Cadsuane appearing and sitting somewhere in between).  Its quite possible and probable that 15 Points is a few % of Landane's overall ability and an absolutely massive amount of Siuan's/Leane's.

 

I don't agree with the rest though, since I now think that the foxy people killed Asmodean ("One of you!", as opposed to "you!"), which means they must have had wishes. Using 100% speculation I also think that perhaps their wishes were taken from the only things the two (Moirane and Lanfear) could agree on, which would definitely have included Asmodean's removal.

[Luckers]

I think you have way too much time on your hands Luckers, please say you copy/pasted most of that ;)

 

Yup. Whenever I take the effort to make one of the uber posts I copy it to word. Saves time as these topics come up on rotation.

 

Besides, I'm at work--you wouldn't have me actually work, would you.

 

I don't agree with the rest though, since I now think that the foxy people killed Asmodean ("One of you!", as opposed to "you!"), which means they must have had wishes. Using 100% speculation I also think that perhaps their wishes were taken from the only things the two (Moirane and Lanfear) could agree on, which would definitely have included Asmodean's removal.

 

Haha, fair enough. Extreme, though I'd buy it if only to see an Asmodean jacket, with handbag excessory. Lol.

 

I still reckon there is next to no chance wishes were granted.

[Owners.Inc]

Suian was the Amryllian Seat. And incredibly young. Which meant she was at or very near the top of the food chain in terms of One Power level. Now she can't even lift a person up. She lost more than half her strength. As the passage itself very clearly states. Lanfear lost a small amount of her strength. She may have been healed by a woman but we really don't know (I'm personally doubting this). But your post is 100% speculation..

 

There are twelve entire paragraphs on the issue of the discrepency of loss, including specific addressal of all your points, and that's the extent of your response? One dismisive declarative statement?

 

Incidently you over use the phrase '100% speculation'. Speculation?  Of course its speculation. It's a speculative argument based on events in the text. That's why it's a theory, and not a fact. But 100% speculation? A 'one hundred percent' speculative argument would be 'I think there is a planet named Sansabar were elves live'--it's also called delusion. It's a sidehanded way to try and dismiss an argument, and this is far from the first time I've seen you use it.

 

I'm not saying don't disagree with me, but come on people this is a discussion forum. Let's try to be constructive about rubbing people's faces in the dirt. Your post does nothing to further the thread at all, and frankly makes it look like you didn't bother to read the post before posting yourself.

 

also.. when does Egwene say that novices no longer have to worry about burning themselves out?

 

Somewhere in Crossroads of Twilight. Her exact comment was that it was hard to keep the novices moving slowly now they no longer had to fear burning themselves out.

 

For what its worth, I don't think the post was rubbish ;D

 

I don't know about you, but I've always felt its kinda intuitively obvious (to use RJ's phrase out of context) that burning out could be healed just like stilling was. To me their essentially the same thing caused by different means. I can see some may not agree with that, but its what I think.

 

In any case, Moridin does know about Healing stilling - but he thinks its only partially done. In POD, Chapter 3, he mentions the primitive people (referring in the context to Avi's unweaving of the gateway) that they keep pulling impossible stuff out of their asses. (yes, i paraphrased). He mentions that they managed to heal, to heal severing to SOME extent. Which indicates that he has moles in Salidar? Moles that know about Siuan and Leane but not Logain? Anyway, I thought I'd mention it.

[Tryeman]

Luckers; well thought out response. I don't have a better counterargument for why Cyndane has a reduced ability to channel the power but when Siuan talks about her reduction in power she is using her original level of power and saying that she's not halfway to that(at least that is how that passage reads to me). The best way around this is to use the fixed power loss argument instead. However, if this were the case then many channelers could never be healed at all; as I assume there are many channelers who have a relative power of "15 units" or under. It seems to me that a percentage would be lost and its hard to reconcile the cyndane/Lanfear power ratio to the post stilling/pre-stilling Siuan ratio. Anyways, I can't wait for poor Moiraine to be rescued!

[Luckers]

The whole power discussion with Siuan is obscured by the social hierarchy. The extreme skew of her comments is dictated by that hierarchy, were a small difference in strength results in a radical difference in standing, but I went into great detail on that above. The significant point here is that given Siuan is above the Aes Sedai cut off limit she cannot be less than half her original strength. That option is out.

 

The fixed decline, by the way, was what I was suggesting. Alternates are a fixed percentage--which would mean Cyndane lost more. Or a rotating reaction--i.e. the weaker you are, the more you lose, and vice versa. Possibly too, the strength of the healer affects the result--though that would again result in Cyndane losing more, unless Semirhage were brought in to perform the actual heal, which is unlikely given the fact that Demandred is unaware Cyndane is Lanfear.

 

There is alot which may effect this--the point is Siuan and Leane's decrease in strength is not as realistically dramatic as they make it out. It is their drop in strength relative to the Aes Sedai hierarchy which is so dramatic. They are, in effect, counting shawl strength as 0 and their previous strength as 100 (they thought Cadsuane was dead). As such their decline did exceed more than half their strength.

 

However, given they both stand above the cut off point (several steps above it, actually), neither lost more than half her original strength.

[The Dirty Landry]

I think it will be interesting to see why exactly that Lanfear was killed and Moiraine was spared. I hope we are able to find out. I don't think you can look at the Snakes and Foxes (too lazy to type the real names, haha) as either good or evil. They are merely different than humans and the only thing we really know about them is that they see through visitor's memories, they have a tower that is hard to escape from, and that you have to cheat to beat them. So its doubtful that Lanfear was killed because she was evil and a Forsaken.

 

Its possible that her arrogance caused her to be killed, but as a person from AoL you think she would have some knowledge of this realm and would be smart enough not to make a mistake with them. The only other reason i can think of is that she either died when she was severed or that she was killed somehow by Moraine.

 

If the snakes and Foxes did kill her I wonder if a certain someone has a new set of pale leather straps from Lanfear's hide? haha.

[Luckers]

It may simply be her connection to the Shadow--good, evil or otherwise the Finns have shown an aversion to dealing with things relating to the Shadow, and Lanfear, as one of the Chosen, is as close to the Shadow made flesh as was possible befor Shaidar Haren walked on stage.

[richnewton82]

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[richnewton82]

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[Ben-Oh]

yes 100% speculation.

 

The facts are pretty limited.

 

Lanfear fell into snake/foxy land. Cyndane emerges a few books later with less One Power strength.

 

Meanwhile Suian and Leane lost a large part part of their strength after being stilled and then healed.

 

To take those events and say that its likely Lanfear was stilled by the snakes and foxes, given a new body by the DO, and then healed by a woman, is 100% speculation. There is absolutely NO evidence to support your claim at all. In a court it would be immediately dismissed. Its a great theory but it is completely speculative. We have no idea if she was stilled, burned out, killed, or none of the above (or all of the above). We know practically nothing. Can't people just accept something as being a deliberate unknown.

 

I have absolutely no problem with accepting something as "deliberate unknown". I have not read a single page of the infamous "who killed A...", just to name something deliberately left unknown.

 

On the other hand, luckers was just constructing a theory to explain the 'facts' we know from the story. And in this respect it is 100% speculation (although I would say 80% speculation, given some small facts in the books). A theory is not a court-case, so there is no reason to critisize(sp?) this theory based on that argument.

 

Now if you really rather have this left deliberately unknown, don't read this thread. If, on the other hand, you disagree with the theory, please by all means shoot some holes in it by pointing out flaws in the theory. Luckers even left some pointers in his text where there are some weak points.

 

[Luckers]

yes 100% speculation.

 

The facts are pretty limited.

 

Lanfear fell into snake/foxy land. Cyndane emerges a few books later with less One Power strength.

 

Meanwhile Suian and Leane lost a large part part of their strength after being stilled and then healed.

 

To take those events and say that its likely Lanfear was stilled by the snakes and foxes, given a new body by the DO, and then healed by a woman, is 100% speculation. There is absolutely NO evidence to support your claim at all. In a court it would be immediately dismissed. Its a great theory but it is completely speculative. We have no idea if she was stilled, burned out, killed, or none of the above (or all of the above). We know practically nothing. Can't people just accept something as being a deliberate unknown. RJ wrote the story and he put such limited information in regarding Lanfear that we can't know what happened to her. Not to mention we cannot hope to know what will happen to Moraine either.

 

And yes that is the crux of your argument so that's the part I'm going to argue against. Suian couldn't even lift Gareth with the power and it explicitly states that she wishes she could be healed to 50% of her original strength which means she is now BELOW 50%. Arguing against that is pretty obtuse because the text is VERY clearly written (for once).

 

You arn't doing alot to help yourself. I wrote twelve paragraphs on the 'points you've used to argue against the crux of my argument'--and all you've done is restate what you said before with CAPITALS to emphasise your indignation. You've not addressed any of my points--in fact you've ignored them utterly. I can't really respond to that--I mean, I suppose I could requote my entire thread, but that seems counter-productive, don't you think?

 

Tell you what, go back and read through what I wrote again and we can start over in a discussion on the issue. Where in my logic do you think I fell through? What points do your specifically disagree with, and why?

 

Helpful hint #1--when I raised Cyndane as possible evidence that burning out can be healed, you can pretty much assume that I wouldn't then go on to suggest 'that its likely Lanfear was stilled by the snakes and foxes' [your words].

 

Helpful hint #2--get rid of comments like 'In a court it would be immediately dismissed.' It 'immediately' makes you sound like you don't have an argument of your own, and are desperately searching for the established authority to back you up--'my teacher said', 'my proffessor said'--In other words, it makes you sound like you don't know what you're talking about. It also makes you sound a bit young. I assume none of that was your intention?

 

Courts, by the way, run on speculation. Events that arn't speculative are called facts, and when the facts are clear the case is usually settled out of court. A well presented bunch of bull-diddy would not get thrown out so long as it touched on the evidence. Whether it'd recieve a good verdict is a different matter entirely, but that'd bring us back to the specifics of the argument, which you've yet to address.

 

 

[dwn]

I've never seen any evidence to suggest that 'burning out' is any different than 'stilling' (as someone already mentioned).  Specifically, does anyone have page references (or FAQ references) to say that someone who is burnt out can no longer even sense the source?

 

Also, so far as I can tell there was no such distinction in the AoL; both were called severing.  Since 'stilling' is done on purpose (trial or combat) and the AoL was a time of Happy Fluffy Things, losing one's ability in such a way probably wasn't common, hence only one term for it was needed.

 

-- dwn

[Luckers]

From the Glossary. (aCoS I believe).

 

burning out:

If the ability to channel is lost by accident, the proccess is called being "burned out." The results of

being burned out are much the same as being severed (stilled or gentled) with one difference. The man

or women who is burned out can neither channel nor sense the One Power.

 

stilling:

The act, performed by Aes Sedai, of shutting off a woman who can channel from the One Power. A

woman who has been stilled can sense the True Source, but she cannot touch it.

 

That's why the distinctions between what the Aes Sedai do in stilling someone and what Rand did to Ronaille, Sashelle and Irgaine are so important. The Aes Sedai method, of cutting cleanly, leave a person able to sense the true source. People take that as a sign that Burning Out, which leaves you unable to sense the True Source, is more complete.

 

However, functionally speaking, Rand's actions resulted in an effect more akin to burning out then stilling, which is why that incident is so significant.

[dwn]

From the Glossary. (aCoS I believe).

 

From the aCoS glossary: "[...] When the ability to channel is lost accidentally, it is called being burned out, though 'stilling' is often used for that also.  Women who are stilled, however it occurs, seldom survive long [...]"

 

This strongly implies that both results are the same.  I'm still looking for your reference, though.

 

-- dwn

[dwn]

Read the glossary entry for yourself.  I simply omitted text irrelevant to the topic.

 

Anyway, I found the actual reference.  The distinction is made in the Teresa Patterson book, page 22: "The woman who is burned out can neither channel nor sense the Power."

 

The rest of the passage suggests that they are simply different degrees of the same thing (i.e. the terms are used interchangeably).

 

-- dwn