The Very Helpful Verin Theory

[Thorn]

Here's a thought what if Verin had used the ring ter'angreal to enter Tel'Aran'Rhiod and had, while there, had the three oaths removed either through some action of her own or by accident - this removal would apply when she returned from TAR and she would be free of the three oaths, but would have to appear to be bound by them for her own safety

 

Well, she must be bound by the Rod; she has the ageless face. Presumably,the reason BA still have the ageless face is that they swear other oaths instead (to obey the Dark One?). So even if Verin had been BA at some point in the past, and isn't one now, she still must have some binding swear as per the oath rod, or there wouldn't be ageless face.

[Mr. Micawber]

[quote author=Mablir Dorlig link=topic=48123.msg1314216#msg1314216

Here's a thought what if Verin had used the ring ter'angreal to enter Tel'Aran'Rhiod and had, while there, had the three oaths removed either through some action of her own or by accident - this removal would apply when she returned from TAR and she would be free of the three oaths, but would have to appear to be bound by them for her own safety

 

Well, she must be bound by the Rod; she has the ageless face. Presumably,the reason BA still have the ageless face is that they swear other oaths instead (to obey the Dark One?). So even if Verin had been BA at some point in the past, and isn't one now, she still must have some binding swear as per the oath rod, or there wouldn't be ageless face.

 

As Galina thinks to herself, the Black Ajah swears a different trinity.

 

I think part of it is that Ishamael when he set up the BA knew that they would need the ageless face, but I rather like to think the other part of it is that, as Luckers said on a different thread, the Dark One's kind of a douche. I wouldn't be surprised to see Elan Morin and Shai'tan having a cup of joe - sorry, kaf - and laughing at the stupidity of these half trained superstitious children.

[rygar]

Does an oathbound sister have to dance around the lie?

Yes. Black sisters can lie outright, only those bound by the Oaths have to dance round it, speaking half truths.

 

Poor wording on my part.  I realize that.  I meant does a non black sister have to dance around lying.  Dancing is what I am getting at.  N0 other sister goes through the thought process of trying to not lie - they just do it.  When you have to think about it, it could mean that you are trying not to lie, and trying not to show you could be black. 

 

 

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

I appreciate the quotes luckers. That does sort of clear up for cads, unless she wanted to dig up everyone who was in the black ajah as some type of power move for herself, but that is a bit far fetched. Verin I am still not sure about. I see your argument and the reasons for it, but it doesnt make me 100% sure. We'll just have to agree to disagree and RAFO.

 

In regards to something someone else said, as a sort of aside: I dont think being freed from the 3 oaths makes the ageless face disappear, as the only time we read about that is when siuan and leane are stilled. Its possible it does disappear with time (after un-swearing) i guess, but i think if you are bound by the oaths long enough to achieve the ageless face, it doesnt go away if you are freed from them as well.

 

I have always wondered what the black sister's swear. Probably something about not betraying their comrades i would think, but what about the other two?

[Luckers]

Does an oathbound sister have to dance around the lie?

Yes. Black sisters can lie outright, only those bound by the Oaths have to dance round it, speaking half truths.

The only thing the Blacks have to be cautious about is getting caught in an out and out lie.

 

The point I was making was that Verin wasn't being cautious about others knowing, she was rationalizing her comment to herself so that she could speak it. It was entirely private, and entirely unnecassary. That's why I drew the parallel between her thoughts when she was misrepresenting the truth, and Galina's when she was doing the same thing. Verin rationalizes, whilst Galina is ruefully amused that she can get away with was using the truth to serve her agenda.

 

Poor wording on my part.  I realize that.  I meant does a non black sister have to dance around lying.  Dancing is what I am getting at.  N0 other sister goes through the thought process of trying to not lie - they just do it.  When you have to think about it, it could mean that you are trying not to lie, and trying not to show you could be black.  

 

They do think about it though. All of them. Here's Cadsuane, for instance: "I don't care a fig your coramoor." Cadsuane continued, her voice still mild. All the figs in the world about the Dragon Reborn, but not one for the Coramoor.

 

They train themselves to do it fast and smooth, but they still do it. Because misrepresenting the truth without having a rationalisation for it is a lie.

[Blackhoof]

Yes, you are probably right.  ;D

[Mr Ares]

I meant does a non black sister have to dance around lying.

Yes. Only Blacks can lie, so any AS bound by the Oaths has to dance round them, say misleading true things rather than falsehoods. Verin is no different in this respect than anyone else, and thus is still bound.

[rygar]

I meant does a non black sister have to dance around lying.

Yes. Only Blacks can lie, so any AS bound by the Oaths has to dance round them, say misleading true things rather than falsehoods. Verin is no different in this respect than anyone else, and thus is still bound.

 

Right, i realize this. 

 

Does anybody have the passage about Verin dancing around the lie?  I don't have it in front of me.  I seem to recall that she way out of her way in the POV to explain how she gets around the lie, which is abnormal for most POV for aes sedai.  Very abnormal if I recall.

[Blackhoof]

I suppose we haven't had many scenes where an Aes Sedai is misleading and its from her POV. But Elayne does it when she misleads the borderlanders.

[Dmitri]

Does anybody have the passage about Verin dancing around the lie?  I don't have it in front of me.  I seem to recall that she way out of her way in the POV to explain how she gets around the lie, which is abnormal for most POV for aes sedai.  Very abnormal if I recall.

 

TPoD, Prologue.

 

Verin uses her own kind of Compulsion on Beldeine, and then...

 

... At last Beldeine’s convulsions lessened, stopped. She raised a filthy hand to her head. “What—? What happened?” she said, almost inaudibly. “Did I faint?” Forgetfulness was another good point about the weave, not unexpectedly. After all, Father must not remember that you somehow made him buy that expensive dress.

 

“The heat is very bad,” Verin said, helping her to sit up again. “I have felt light-headed myself once or twice today.” From weariness, not heat. Handling that much of saidar took it out of you, especially when you had already done it four times today. The angreal did nothing to buffer the effects once you stopped using it. She could have used a steadying hand herself. “I think that’s about enough. If you’re fainting, perhaps they’ll find something for you to do out of the sun.” The prospect did not seem to cheer Beldeine at all.

------

Here you are, a nice example of dancing around a lie.  ;)

 

[Mr Ares]

I seem to recall that she way out of her way in the POV to explain how she gets around the lie, which is abnormal for most POV for aes sedai.

No it's perfectly normal. Only a BA, unbound, could do otherwise.