Is the second half of the series what you envisioned?

[Arkelias]

And no matter how good KoD was, it was kind of jarring to jump right in and have so much happen after the tedious wait, ya know? Eh, it got all back on track  but it felt a little turbulent to me.

 

I just finished KoD yesterday for first time since it came out.  It did feel a bit, I don't know, I guess rushed is the best word.  After so much build up in so many plots I think I was looking for a longer payoff, especially with Mat and Tuon.

 

Not that it was a bad book, mind you.  I liked it nearly as much as the first six, and it really made me proud of RJ that he finished with a book that harkened back to his earlier work.

 

For the first time since finishing Lord of Chaos I'm excited about the next book.  Thanks for the strong finish RJ!  I can't wait for October 27th.

[mb]

Forgive my ignorance but I can't recall if they did or didn't know Mat and Perrin were Ta'veren. Does anyone remember?

They did not, or if they did none of the viewpoints we were given access to suggested it.  Everything we saw suggested they were still just trying to figure out which one was the Dragon.

Actually, Ishamael/Moridin knew; also Lanfear/Cyndane.  Because of their ability to find the location of Taveren.  Also, Moridin mentions it in the Knife of Dreams meeting.

 

Knowing that one of the 3 was the Dragon Reborn (and/or the confusion of which one) I take comes from the fact that each of the 3 were taveren.

 

[Mr Ares]

Long winded self-pitying whining with a lot of insults thrown in for good measure.

I paraphrased it a bit. Now, I think it's a bit unfair to say I strut like a peacock. I mean, I strut way better than any damn peacock, and you know it. You're right, though, that I couldn't argue my way out of a wet paper bag. That would take physical force. On the other hand, with an intelligent, thinking person I can argue very well. If one comes along, I'll show you.

 

Now, if you have a problem with the mods, take it up with them, or the site admins. No use whining in this thread about it. As it is, I don't recall any mod interference in the thread, which makes your complaint a tad bewildering. They're not deleting your posts left, right and centre. Might be better if they did, but never mind.

 

As for taking courses and reading books on writing, whether or not I have done these things is irrelevant. I will get to the imaginary promise in due course. I like that you refer to my being secure in my own superiority in response to a comment that couldn't be more tongue in cheek if it tried. Now, I have listened to everything you've said. Much of it wasn't worth the effort, but never mind. I am not ignorant of character and event driven stories. I know exactly what they are. A character driven story is one where the plot is driven by the characters, event driven, or plot driven, is where the characters are created to serve the requirements of the plot. Simple. However, your grasp of these terms appears to be a bit dubious. WoT isn’t character driven. RJ has an awful lot of foreshadowing, and awful lot of prophecy, and the actions of the characters are shaped to fit these pre-determined requirements. Now, this is not a knock on RJ’s characterisation, but take Perrin giving up the axe as an example. It was always going to happen. RJ just had to steer Perrin’s character into position to do it. Throughout he has been moving a cast of characters towards TG. Their actions are decided by RJ, he has complete control. LotR is a somewhat dubious example of a character driven story, given that Tolkien is seldom singled out for his brilliance at characterisation. So WoT was driven throughout by the requirements of the plot, by the need to get certain people into certain places in order to do certain things, and the people were shaped around that, and that didn’t change throughout. So RJ didn’t change course. So if a promise was made about which he would use, it was never broken. Another example of plot driven narrative is an Agatha Christie style detective story - characters are required to be suspects in a plot. Usually a small cast. Now, these types of stories can often result in thin characterisation, but this is not necessarily so. Perhaps the event/character driven story is something that’s too simple to apply to WoT? Really, all that’s changed is that there are more characters, and the pace has slowed a bit.

 

Now, I never crow about how awesome I am. I’m too awesome for that. I raven about it. If you actually bothered to read my posts, your opinion of them might improve, but I doubt it. All you can do is whine. As it is, you’ve given no reason why Perrin or Elayne’s stories could be removed, no reason why any given pov character shouldn’t be given a pov. And the onus is on you. And doesn’t it strike anyone as odd that in a series which has, according to you, become event driven, is known for having fewer and fewer events? Or extra characterisation to be given to minor characters in a story not driven by characterisation in its latter half? Which chapters could be removed? Put your money where your mouth is. Explain how these chapters failed to forward the story.

 

As for why the reader cared that Perrin killed Rolan, that’s up to you. He seemed like a pretty decent guy to me, and he was helping Fale (even though he did want to get into her pants shift) and didn’t much deserve to get his head smacked in by Perrin. Hell, they were on the same side by that point. I was just pointing out that the act itself wasn’t inexplicable.

 

Your tone, by the way, has not been a good match for my own. You lack the requisite sense of humour, for one thing. You need to be capable of both egomania and self-deprecation. You have shown a gift for neither. As a Mr Ares impersonator, I’m sorry, I’m going to have to give you a mere 2/10.

 

He does seem to go the extra mile to be condescending though....

I’m glad someone appreciates my efforts. Of course, I save most of my hostility for those who refuse to discuss, or those who try to discuss settled matters of fact. Arkelias is the former, with his hard-done-by act.

 

And now, our main even: The Implicit Promise. You at the back, wake up. According to the link Arkelias posted, the implicit promise is made with the first page, or even the first paragraph of the story. At this point I would like all of you to open your copy of EotW and read the first paragraph. Now, tell me, all of you, what you think was promised. A character-driven story? An epic showdown between good and evil? A post-apocalyptic tale? The story of how squirrels conquered the world? I would say we were promised description. It is, after all, a description heavy paragraph. And the story remains descriptive throughout. Promise fulfilled! Of course, not all of you will decide that’s what’s being promised, which is why I want other options posted. Tell me what, if anything, is being promised by EotW page 1. And every different answer we get is another nail in the coffin of this idea of an implicit promise. Why? Because every different version further muddies the water about what we actually have been promised. What were we promised? Who knows. Arkelias has already given us two answers, and I a third. Now, he gets this crap from books and courses on writing, but fails to apply common sense.  There is not some rule about promising something, that is something made up after the fact. Possibly to help fill these books and courses. An acquaintance of mine, a PhD in English literature, once told me a story about how, at Uni, she had said to her teacher that she was glad to be part of the first generation really able to appreciate Shakespeare. He thought this quite funny, because each previous generation used its own tools to appreciate his works. The implicit promise is a modern fad. There will come a time when no-one will remember it. People will say, we are not promised anything, we read the text and put our own interpretation on it. The author is dead. He no longer matters once he has written it. Nor do any promises he might make. There is no implicit promise. Not outside the confines of your own mind, and that of like-minded people. It is not implied, it is inferred. It comes from the reader, not the writer. And that is why it does not exist.

[Charlz Guybon]

I didn't really care for CoT the first time I read it because of the lack of resolution within it. I liked what I read in CoT, however the reason I was dissatisfied because there wasn't really a climax at the end of the book. I thought PoD and WH were both excellent and I loved KoD. When you read books 9-11 together at once the material in CoT works, but it shouldn't have been released as one book, the material there in should have been divided up between WH and KoD.

 

As a whole, while I like the first three novels very, very much, I like the latter novels better. I love the complexity, the wide variety of the point of views and breadth of scale. I really love how Jordan does politics. As for battles, I've really liked the ones Jordan has written and I expect there to be a lot more of them in the next three books, something that I think the prologue indicates.

 

By the way I started reading the books just after LoC came out.

 

[Charlz Guybon]

Now I'm pompous too? =(

 

Man, I can't win with you.  In this case I was being critical and intentionally condescending, just not of your posts.  I try to keep a good attitude and be as respectful as possible, but when someone disrespects me I tend to reply in kind.  My tone is a perfect match for Ares, and that's not accidental.

 

What I don't understand is why you'd consider my posts pompous, but his are peachy and friendly.  That doesn't jive, accept maybe because you happen to share his opinion.  Do you honestly think he was respectful in his posts?  Seriously? o.O

 

Like I said though, I knew my opinion wouldn't be popular here and I expect a fair amount of flak for the stances I take.  I don't like the later books and I feel like Jordan lost his way.  That automatically makes me a target for about 85% of the people on these boards, and honestly was why I had said I was going to leave.

 

Being a lightning rod is a lot less fun than being the lightning.  I decided to stay because of what some of the people here had to say, and because of several emails I got from members on the board.

 

I also notice that not a single mod touched any of my posts despite their tone, which was a pleasant surprise.  

 

In regards to your posts, by and large they are civil but you mix in enough insults to irk me *shrugs*.  Honestly?  They come across as condescending, though not as much as Mr. Ares.

 

You asked what the promise is.  Here, read this:

 

http://dorireads.blogspot.com/2009/05/in-august-i-am-planning-to-attend.html

 

Its not the best explanation I've seen, but it was the first one on Google.  She does a decent job of getting across the promise a writer makes when he tells a story.  Its a sort of unspoken agreement you make with your readers when you first set out on a tale.

 

It's important because when you break that promise you lose your readers.  They subconsciously expect certain things, and if they don't get them they quickly get upset.  There have been entire books written about this promise, and about the rules of writing.

 

Some authors get away with breaking a few.  Most pay the price if they ignore them, and RJ is no exception.  No matter what you believe about the later books I think everyone is aware of how much they are reviled by a large portion of his former fans.  It's not accidental that nearly every person who dislikes the later books stopped liking the series at the same point.

 

Almost everyone says the last good book was five, and some will say six.  Book 7 was the first one to really break the promise, which is why almost everyone who left the series did so by that point.

 

I know people who are avid fantasy readers.  They love Martin, Williams and Hobb to name a few.  All of them discovered the WoT when I did, back in the mid 90s.  None made it past book seven, and if you bring up the series they'll flare up into a tirade almost immediately.

 

That sort of passion comes from how well Jordan wove his tale initially, and how amazing he made his world.  The concept of Aes Sedai, the Dragon Reborn, the one power, the White Tower, the borderlands, the Dark One, the Age of Legends...they were all so masterfully crafted.

 

People were swept away by the tale initially, and we desperately wanted to find the end of that tale.  We wanted to see the kids from Edmond's Field build up to Tarmon Gaidon, and then fight and win the last battle.  We wanted to see them become powerful Aes Sedai and Ashaman and generals.

 

We did not want to see the PoV of every Aes Sedai in the tower.  In giving them to us RJ stripped away the mystery and wonder of his world.  No longer were the Aes Sedai incredibly powerful women who made the world dance.  No, now they were a bunch of catty women who argued over trivial things and made stupid decisions despite the looming last battle.

 

We wanted to see our heroes triumph, not be blasted into uselessness like Rand has been.  He's a cripple in so many ways I've almost lost count.  He's lost a hand, has two wounds that won't heal, is going insane despite the taint being cleansed and can't channel anymore because of the dizziness and the fear that LT will seize it if he tries.

 

The implicit promise is that the heroes of our tale will face many dangers, but they will ultimately triumph.  If you subscribe to Joseph Campbell's myth of the hero you know that most epics are broken into three parts.  Star Wars is the best known example of this so I'll use that to explain.

 

In Star Wars Luke leaves his safe secure home to venture into a wider world.  He learns how to use the force and grows stronger.  He gathers allies and sees fantastic things he never dreamed of (Battling the death star for example).

 

In Empire Strikes back our heroes get their asses kicked by the Empire.  This is the phase where the hero learns he is not immortal, and that he can make mistakes.  He learns and grows from this but goes through painful experiences.

 

In the final chapter, Return of the Jedi, our hero returns and whoops large amounts of ass.  He accomplishes the quest he's had since the beginning of the book.  He topples the empire, or in Rand's case wins Tarmon Gaidon.

 

The problem we have with the WoT is that we got Star Wars, then we got Empire Strikes Back and then we got another five episodes of Empire Strikes Back.  Our heroes are supposed to be winning, but instead they are still fumbling about making mistakes after mistake.  Bad things continue to happen to them instead of them moving into Return of the Jedi and beginning to triumph against the Shadow.

 

Many, many people subconsciously expected the hero myth.  We've wanted Return of the Jedi for a long time, and are just plain tired of Empire Strikes Back.  Does that explain a bit better, wavemistress?

 

See, if you ask questions and/or want to talk about the books the discussions are much more fun =)

That's not the hero we're promised in the Eye of the World though. From the very beginning we are promised a hero who will go insane and be as big a threat to the world as the Dark One. If we had gotten anything like the hero myth epitomized in Star Wars I would have thrown down the books in disgust.

 

I certainly don't want there to ever be a Return of the Jedi phase, just a long, brutal struggle where Rand manages to just barely triumph at the end and then dies or trudges off into the wildnerness.

 

The fact that Jordan stripped away the mystery and wonder of the Aes Sedai is to his credit. The Aes Sedai are human and most humans are foolish, short sighted and selfish. I've definitely enjoyed their deconstruction and self inflicted destruction.

[Arkelias]

I paraphrased it a bit. Now, I think it's a bit unfair to say I strut like a peacock. I mean, I strut way better than any damn peacock, and you know it. You're right, though, that I couldn't argue my way out of a wet paper bag. That would take physical force. On the other hand, with an intelligent, thinking person I can argue very well. If one comes along, I'll show you.

 

I might be willing to concede that you strut better than a peacock, however the idea that you strut way better than a peacock is ludicrous as any peacock will tell you.  In this case I've gone to an old peacock friend named Phil.  Phil, how do you feel about Mr. Ares wild claims?

 

http://revengeofthegamer.com/phils-take-on-mr-ares/

 

So, you can say what you want to about me but I'd be careful when you talk about Phil.  I've seen peacocks tear a man limb from limb.  I'm just saying...

 

Now, if you have a problem with the mods, take it up with them, or the site admins. No use whining in this thread about it. As it is, I don't recall any mod interference in the thread, which makes your complaint a tad bewildering. They're not deleting your posts left, right and centre. Might be better if they did, but never mind.

 

This was actually an issue I had primarily on other threads, and one I've worked out with them.  I was quite frustrated, but they were just doing their jobs.  You were just the thread that happened to break the camel's back so to speak.

 

Ultimately I decided to stay because of the tremendous outpouring of support I received.  Some on this thread and a lot of it through PMs.  Many seemed especially pleased to see me put you in your place, which surprised me I have to admit.  As far as inflamatory posters go Maj has you beat.  He can be condescending, but he almost always has a good argument, whereas you are just a troll.  He's made me concede multiple points through this wonderful tool called discussion.  You should look into it.

 

I like that you refer to my being secure in my own superiority in response to a comment that couldn't be more tongue in cheek if it tried.

 

This is a nifty tool called Irony.  One of my favorites too.  Yes, I just used the word nifty in a sentence.

 

As for taking courses and reading books on writing, whether or not I have done these things is irrelevant

 

These things are irrelevant to your ability to enjoy the books.  However, they are very relevant when you try to argue that the WoT is art.  If you aren't trained to understand literary art, how are you qualified to dictate to me what it is?  If you can somehow do that without this training, how would another reader such as myself not be qualfied?  It has to be one or the other. 

 

Either the average reader, you know all those poor saps on amazon you like to disparage, are qualified to have our own opinion about the series, or we're not because its art like you said.  If its art it seems you aren't qualified to appreciate it either, because of your lack of artistic training.  Uh oh, Mr. Ares shot himself in the foot again.  MEDIC!!!

 

Much of it wasn't worth the effort, but never mind.

 

Wait, this suggests that part of it WAS worth reading!  Which part was that?

 

 

A character driven story is one where the plot is driven by the characters, event driven, or plot driven, is where the characters are created to serve the requirements of the plot.

 

Awesome!  He can be taught! In the EotW the plot was driven by the characters.  Look at how few there were and how well defined they were.  Think about the number of scenes with Rand, particularly when he and Mat are on their own.  Think of the fear and the anguish he felt, and how well RJ brought that to the reader.  My first read through I worried what would happen to him.  I felt his horror when he learned to channel.  The story was propelled forward by his growth, and the growth of his companions.

 

Did you get a similar feeling in book ten from anyone?  Which character?  Or did the series feel like it slipped from character to character each giving their own view of specific events?  Cause that latter is the event driven story.

 

I'd be very pleased if you actually answered this question and tried to do it without sarcasm.  I mean, I like the give and take between us but I prefer discussion.  If you honestly feel this way, back it up man.  Give us something other than an insult to work with.

 

WoT isn’t character driven

 

Alright, an assertation!  That's almost like actual debate. Ok, I'll bite.  If you believe that the first few books of the WoT are not character driven could you point to a fantasy series that is?  This is, for the record, called supporting your argument.

 

RJ has an awful lot of foreshadowing, and awful lot of prophecy, and the actions of the characters are shaped to fit these pre-determined requirements. Now, this is not a knock on RJ’s characterisation, but take Perrin giving up the axe as an example. It was always going to happen.

 

Right, and we knew that Rand would fight the dark one almost as soon as we figured out he was the Dragon Reborn.  That's the whole point of a character driven story.  Its not a mystery (many event driven books are).  We know what's going to happen.  We want to see how it comes about, and more importantly how it shapes the characters.  Will Rand go insane?  How will marrying the Daughter of the Nine Moons change Mat?  These are the hallmarks of a good character driven story.

 

Perhaps the event/character driven story is something that’s too simple to apply to WoT? Really, all that’s changed is that there are more characters, and the pace has slowed a bit

 

I disagree, but that whole last paragraph was great.  I like this sort of discussion.  What's changed is that there are more characters who each get considerably less page count.  As they get less page count we see less development for each.  Also, the actual development slowed considerably.  Take a look at Elayne for example.  From the time she arrives in Caemlyn to the time she assumes the throne how did you feel she developed or grew emotionally as a character?  I didn't see any development.  In fact, after three books she was still complaining about the pregnancy, the windfinders, and well pretty much all the same things she did when she got there.  I see no character development, like you'd see in a character driven story.  I see events moving forward.  She is slowly claiming the throne and moving towards Tarmon Gaidon.  This feels more event driven than character driven.

 

Now, I never crow about how awesome I am. I’m too awesome for that. I raven about it.

 

You should make that your signature.  It make me chuckle!

 

 

If you actually bothered to read my posts, your opinion of them might improve, but I doubt it

 

Obviously I did read your posts or I wouldn't have shredded you so effectively.  Believe me, I'm paying attention.  Was there some part of your previous posts I didn't address?  Some argument you put forward that I didn't counter?  Because I can't find any.  Which makes this seem like backpedaling to avoid the next hammer blow.  Don't make me send in Phil, Ares.  You wouldn't like him when he's angry.

 

And doesn’t it strike anyone as odd that in a series which has, according to you, become event driven, is known for having fewer and fewer events?

 

This is actually the crux of my argument.  We lost the character driven feel to the story, and it wasn't replaced with grand events.  It was replaced with soap opera style let's-drag-it-out-another-season scenes.  So we got the worst of both worlds.  Characters I don't care about and events I want to see, but don't get to.  See my thread about Cleansing Saidin for more on this.

 

As it is, you’ve given no reason why Perrin or Elayne’s stories could be removed, no reason why any given pov character shouldn’t be given a pov. And the onus is on you.

 

Seriously? =(

 

Ok, I'll do it again.  Perrin's story doesn't need to be removed (as I said), it needs to be seriously shortened. Why?  Because those chapters are boring and add nothing to his character development.  How did those books advance Perrin's character?  If you feel like they did, could they have been shortened and still accomplished whatever character development RJ was going for?

 

There, I've put forward a hypothosis.  Before you can bring up this point again you need to actually challenge that hypothosis.  Its quite possible I'm wrong, but if I am you actually have to prove it.  Not toss the ball back in my court and pretend like you did.  Answer.  The.  Question.  You still haven't, and I've asked it in each of my responses for about five pages now.

 

The chapters removed could be replaced by Rand going to the Black Tower and announcing the cleansing of Saidin.  Of battling Taim for the loyalty of the Asha'man, showing the split in the Black Tower.  That's just one of many awesome scenes that would have moved the story forward, and been interesting to the reader.  Far more interesting than Perrin's endless quest.

 

For Elayne I wouldn't remove it.  I'd redact the crap out of it.  Every chapter I went through I'd say to myself 'does this endless bickering between Seafolk Windfinders, the Kin and a handful of Aes Sedai move the story forward?'.  Every chapter that didn't would be removed.  Remember the 200 pages in CoT where Elayne walks around the caslte for 200 pages having an internal monologue?  This all has to go.  People want to read about events, not hear about them later in someone's head.

 

People wanted to see Mat kill Couladin, for example.  We didn't want to hear about it later.  These scenes are simply not interesting.  They presented no new aspects of Elayne's character, and the conflict surrounding caemlyn was dull and lifeless.  We knew from the start how it would play out, and there was no danger or tension.  I've pointed his out before, but you refuse to address this or respond to my point.

 

Every time I make the point your next post says:

 

you’ve given no reason why Perrin or Elayne’s stories could be removed

 

Dude, how many times must I give the same reason?  Its cool if you disagree with it, but could you at least admit that I HAVE responded?  Could you actually answer my questions?  I've said why I think they can be redacted and most of the scenes removed.  Surely you can see that.  Maybe you think its a bad reason, but if so tell us why!  Again, dazzle us with your legendary debate skills.

 

I’m glad someone appreciates my efforts. Of course, I save most of my hostility for those who refuse to discuss, or those who try to discuss settled matters of fact. Arkelias is the former, with his hard-done-by act.

 

That's it.  I'm calling Phil.  Don't say I didn't warn you.  By the way the 'settled matters of fact' is the issue people have with you.  These aren't settled issues or we wouldn't be here discussing them.  You may believe they are settled, but if you want anyone to agree with you you're going to have to debate and explain your case.  We aren't going to just recognize your greatness and fall into line.

 

So, convince us if you want to change our stance.  Again, this is how a discussion works.  You might consider speaking to Maj if you need help understanding how this is supposed to work.

 

And now, our main even: The Implicit Promise.

 

I linked that to show you that the promise did in fact exist.  I notice you've now accepted that fact.  Remember back a few pages when it was the 'implicit promise' in quotes because you said it didn't exist?  Please wipe the egg off of your face now.

 

 

According to the link Arkelias posted, the implicit promise is made with the first page, or even the first paragraph of the story. At this point I would like all of you to open your copy of EotW and read the first paragraph. Now, tell me, all of you, what you think was promised. A character-driven story?

 

She doesn't do the best job explaining the promise, Ares.  In a short story it is almost always in the first three paragraphs. In a novel it can take the first several chapters to get across to the reader.  The point about the promise, Ares, is that tells the reader right off the bat what they are getting into.  RJ admitted that as of EotW it was meant to be a trilogy.  That was his first contract.  His next was for six books.

 

You've told me that I'm wrong about this, but these are well known facts.  You're much younger than I am, I assume.  I remember back when the legions of loyal WoT fans first came into existence.  Before the web.  I remember each book as it came out.  For the first six books RJ followed his promise, which is why I stayed up night after night devouring his books eagerly.

 

The characters very nearly became real people, and I agonized over the dangers they went through.  I cheered their victories.  I ached over Lan and Nynyeave, knowing they couldn't be together and wishing they could.  This feeling, this promise, faded in the later books. 

 

Tell me what, if anything, is being promised by EotW page 1

 

You challenge the validity of the promise, and that's fine.  That's the sort of debate I encourage.  What bothered me was the part where you told me it didn't exist.  Remember that, Mr. Ares?

 

You are a master of backtracking.  You are a mire of shifting stances, all designed to prevent you from ever being wrong.  The thing is you are wrong.  I know it and so does Phil.  If you want to post again, I'll shred that too.  I want to close with this though.  You still have yet to answer my questions about the Elayne and Perrin story arcs.  Until you can answer those you really do come across as ranting in a desperate attempt to avoid being proven wrong.

 

I believe you are intelligent, Ares.  I believe you have valid opinions.  I just wished you believed the same about me, and had the respect to argue your points.  It's a pity you don't.  Or do you?  Prove me wrong.  Make me look bad.  Put up a great argument in favor or Perrin's eternal quest, or Elayne's 3 books of skirt smoothing, agonizing over her pregnancy and the catty channelers she is surrounding by.

 

I'd be happy to discuss that, and to explain to you why I feel you're wrong.  But just talking down to me like I'm a moron without backing up your own arguments just makes you look like a clown.  Right Phil?

[Mr Ares]

I might be willing to concede that you strut better than a peacock, however the idea that you strut way better than a peacock is ludicrous as any peacock will tell you.

Any peacock that would tell you otherwise is talking out of its over feathered arse.

 

Ultimately I decided to stay because of the tremendous outpouring of support I received.

I must say, I was terribly disappointed at your lack of staying power. After all, four days? That's it? Terrible.

Many seemed especially pleased to see me put you in your place, which surprised me I have to admit.

I must say, it surprises me a lot too. After all, when did you put me in my place? Hasn't happened yet. The king, he stay the king.

He can be condescending, but he almost always has a good argument, whereas you are just a troll.

No, if you actually bothered trying to understand my posts, you'd see that I have an argument.

 

These things are irrelevant to your ability to enjoy the books. However, they are very relevant when you try to argue that the WoT is art.

No, they're not. You don't need to know how to write a book in order to criticise one. The two are different skills.

Uh oh, Mr. Ares shot himself in the foot again.

Not even close. I think 'tis you who needs the medic.

 

Much of it wasn't worth the effort, but never mind.

Wait, this suggests that part of it WAS worth reading! Which part was that?

All right, you've caught me out. I was just being polite, nothing of what you said was a good argument. It is only worth reading for the meagre amusement of watching you make yourself look foolish.

 

Awesome! He can be taught!

Not only can he be taught, he knew this stuff before you, and was acutally the one to provide definitions. You just said character driven=usually small cast, event driven=usually large cast, which is useless, not least because of those usually-s, a neat cop out.

In the EotW the plot was driven by the characters.

Not really. They left the TR due to an attack of Trollocs, they went to the EotW because Ishy kept going on about the Eye. They needed to go, so RJ came up with a reason for them to go.

Look at how few there were and how well defined they were.

Neither a relevant factor. Size of cast isn't in the slightest bit relevant to determining if the characters are driving the plot or vice versa, nor how well defined the cast is. The terms are fairly self-explanatory. Is the plot born out of the actions of the characters, or are the characters born out of the requirements of the plot? From a reader's pov, this is not relevant. It is to the writer (and many writers might use a combination of the two). If you read for plots, then you want fiction with good plots, and if you read for characters then you read for good characters. If a writer has an intricate plot, but the characters he creates are three-dimensional, then both are happy. If he creates three-dimensional characters, and their interactions require a complex plot, both are happy. The two are not mutually exclusive. WoT has both good characters and good plots. But which is driving which doesn't matter to any save the writer (or perhaps as a  matter of intellectual curiosity), and thus it forms no part of any implicit promise. If you are writing yourself, you decide for yourself how best to write. Do you plan, or just start writing? Do you come up with a good character and put him in the world and see what he does, or do you start with a good plot and create characters who will function within it? Or a little of each? That matters if you are writing it. Not if you are reading it.

Think of the fear and the anguish he felt, and how well RJ brought that to the reader.

No-one is denying that RJ was good with characters, so this isn't relevant.

The story was propelled forward by his growth, and the growth of his companions.

The story was propelled forward by the need to get somewhere. First TV, then the Eye. In book 2, it was get the Horn. Then Callandor. Then go to Rhuidean, on to Al'cair Dal, then follow the Shaido, and so on, all the while working towards TG, and pre-determined end point. When we first meet the characters, they are at a, and TG is z. RJ is just getting them from a-z.

 

In later books, RJ had more characters and plots to deal with, so just as much plot or character development spread over more characters leaves a different feeling from the few characters and plotlines of the first books. But this isn't something that changed all at once. The story just grew. You can't point at one and say there's a huge change. In book 4 he stops drawing his characters together at the end, having his climaxes play out separately rather than together, but Perrin's was disconnected in TDR, so this was nothing new. However, there were moments of good character development in the later books. Perrin and the Shaido in book 10, for example. Faile's arc while in captivity (her finest hour? Possibly). Egwene going from puppet to Amyrlin in her own right to captive to bringing down Elaida from within. It is something of a mistake to look at the books, particularly the later ones, in isolation. It is a continuing story. In CoT we see Egwene's plan to block the harbours, and two of the people she planned on using to do it were killed off. Ultimately, she decided that it was up to her to do it, rather than sending Bode. A great moment for Egwene. And it helped to set up her later arc in KoD. So there were moments that I liked in that book, great character moments. Really, that's not a change in the series. It's been the same throughout. Also, Tuon was great, and Elayne's determination to unify her country in time for TG.

 

If you believe that the first few books of the WoT are not character driven could you point to a fantasy series that is?

Gormenghast trilogy by Mervyn Peake. If you've not read it, you really should.

 

Right, and we knew that Rand would fight the dark one almost as soon as we figured out he was the Dragon Reborn. That's the whole point of a character driven story.

In a character driven story, the story is driven by the characters. The plot requires Rand be at TG, and he is a slave to its requirements.

We know what's going to happen. We want to see how it comes about, and more importantly how it shapes the characters.

And that has not changed throughout the story. It has more characters now, but if the characters were driving the story then they still are, and if they weren't then they're not now, and if it was half and half then it's the same now. The focus has widened, nothing more.

 

I disagree

With which part? That it's too simple, or that the only changes are number of characters and slowing of pace (that last is the biggest criticism of the latter half of the series, by the way.

What's changed is that there are more characters who each get considerably less page count. As they get less page count we see less development for each.

But for most of them, we have seen them already. They have been set up, they don't need as much development. But there was a lot of character development given to minor characters, as there has been throughout. People like Pevin the Bannerman, or the rivalry between Halwin Norry and Reene Harfor.

 

In fact, after three books she was still complaining about the pregnancy, the Windfinders, and well pretty much all the same things she did when she got there.

There's a lot more to her than that. What's the first thing we see her doing in CoT? Visiting a lord sworn to her. Why? Because she knows the story of that visit, and others like it will spread. It won't help her win the throne, but it will help after it, winning the country, solidifying her rule, because she knows she cannot wait until afterwards. She is not just passively waiting, she is acting, as much as she can. Now, how much character development would you expect to see during this amount of time? And of what sort? Elayne's chapters in CoT take place in a single day. How much development would you expect of anyone in a similar time frame? It's not like it's many chapters.

 

Obviously I did read your posts or I wouldn't have shredded you so effectively.

Oh, that gave me a good laugh, that did. Let me know when the shredding is to start, please. I'd hate to miss it.

 

This is actually the crux of my argument.

I thought we'd covered this, you don't have an argument, you're just whining.

We lost the character driven feel to the story, and it wasn't replaced with grand events.

So it's not event driven. As there aren't many events driving it. This is the crux of most of the objections to CoT, not that it is no longer character driven, but that the pace has slowed. RJ likes to take his time, and is doing so more than usual in the later books, and in this one most of all. Hence this being rather incomplete as a book in its own right, but serving as a good set up book for later events.

 

Seriously? =(

Seriously.

 

Perrin's story doesn't need to be removed (as I said), it needs to be seriously shortened. Why? Because those chapters are boring and add nothing to his character development. How did those books advance Perrin's character?

I don't know, what did Perrin torturing someone and throwing away his axe in disgust add to his character? Anyone? It's a mystery, that. I suppose next you'll be asking what Faile showed? And, again, what could have been removed? Not just saying shorten it, actually tell me what cuts you'd make. Which plot points? Which descriptions (I don't think we need to know how to clean silk, for one). And what of the plot development? Throughout, RJ hasn't ignored the importance of plot. Character development might be done in a few lines, so what will take up the rest of your narrative?

 

The chapters removed could be replaced by Rand going to the Black Tower and announcing the cleansing of Saidin.

Theoretically, yes. Of course, nothing was stopping RJ from writing that in the first place. He could have added that to CoT, or KoD, if he had wished. But why? Would would we gain? The Asha'man know it's clean, and they don't need Rand to tell them. He doesn't trust them, they might not believe him if he told them (Logain didn't) he did it, and really there is just no reason to do it.

Of battling Taim for the loyalty of the Asha'man, showing the split in the Black Tower.

But the whole point is he's ignoring it. That's going to blow up in his face, sooner or later. And we can see the BT just fine, we don't need another glimpse of it. That's the problem you criticise elsewhere.

 

That's just one of many awesome scenes that would have moved the story forward

No, it wouldn't, not in the way RJ wanted, if at all. Rand going along giving a speech doesn't advance the story. And if his ignoring it helps lead to Logain's glory, for example...

Every chapter I went through I'd say to myself 'does this endless bickering between Seafolk Windfinders, the Kin and a handful of Aes Sedai move the story forward?'. Every chapter that didn't would be removed.

The problem is not that each chapter doesn't move things forward, it's that not enough of each chapter moves things forward. We don't need to see Elayne taking a bath for half the chapter, even if the other half is the plot-relevant bargain she made with Zaida. Just trim it so that we get a paragraph of bath.

Remember the 200 pages in CoT where Elayne walks around the castle for 200 pages having an internal monologue?

No.

People want to read about events, not hear about them later in someone's head.

Ah, but it's frequently quicker and easier to recap them later. It might be interesting to see an assault on the walls, but if we just hear that they are quite common we don't need to see every bloody one. We don't need to see every example of Windfinders making demands, but if we see a couple and hear about others it works, and that's what RJ did.

People wanted to see Mat kill Couladin, for example.

True, but from a plot point of view it wasn't necessary, and from a character point of view this way is probably better. I think it worked very well. It would have been a major disappointment if that was the climax of the book, though.

We knew from the start how it would play out

We knew from the start how TG would play out.

Dude, how many times must I give the same reason?

If it wasn't a good enough reason before, it isn't now. Simply saying you'd remove a lot of stuff is meaningless. What would you take out? Why? That's what I've been asking all along, but you keep dodging the issue. Saying you'd take out most of the scenes tells us nothing of any use.

 

By the way the 'settled matters of fact' is the issue people have with you. These aren't settled issues or we wouldn't be here discussing them.

Frequently, they are. People refusing to acknowledge the facts isn't conducive to debate. They just ignore the evidence infavour of their pet theory, and do so usually at great length. What respect do they deserve? None. I'll start by debating, but if the other side won't, if they'll just ignore my points, I'll bulldoze them into submission. I'm fully prepared to debate. If others aren't, they'll suffer the consequences.

 

I linked that to show you that the promise did in fact exist.

Didn't work.

I notice you've now accepted that fact.

Yes, my saying it doesn't exist really shows that I accept its existence, inverted commas or no. It doesn't exist. Its just a fad, popular in some quarters, perhaps, but not something authors make to readers. Its a myth. You have said nothing to justify its existence.

 

She doesn't do the best job explaining the promise, Ares.

Did my name drop a Mr, boy? And if she didn't do a good job explaining, then she didn't support your point. If you can't explain it well, and no-one else can, why should we accept it as some sort of revealed truth froma higher power on the art of writing?

The point about the promise, Ares, is that tells the reader right off the bat what they are getting into.

And what did RJ promise? That he was prepared to take his time? Like I said, it's meaningless. You don't always know what you're getting into early on. No reason why you should. No need for a promise.

RJ admitted that as of EotW it was meant to be a trilogy. That was his first contract. His next was for six books.

The first contract RJ signed for this series was six. Any possibility of a trilogy was out the window before he even finished writing book one (the events of books two and three were supposed to be in book one).

 

You've told me that I'm wrong about this, but these are well known facts.

No, they're not. I did look into this, beleive it or not, and that was what I found. His first contract with Tor was six books, at Tom Doherty's insistence. He didn't think it would take that long, although he wasn't insistent on a trilogy.

You're much younger than I am, I assume.

You assume wrong. Very wrong. Although I accept you've been a fan longer than me. Not that that is in any way relevant.

 

What bothered me was the part where you told me it didn't exist. Remember that, Mr Ares?

I do. It doesn't. We were not promised anything by RJ, only by ourselves.

 

I just wished you believed the same about me, and had the respect to argue your points.

Respect is earnt.