What's the deal with Callandor?

[Arkelias]

Just after Rand gained Callandor he used it for the first time in the beginning of book four.  Myrdraal and Trollocs were invading the stone, and Rand used it to throw lighning with unerring accuracy that shot through the entire stone wiping out only shadowspawn while leaving all his allies intact.  That's some pretty amazing precision, and was a great scene.

 

Fast forward four books.  RJ has realized 'Uh oh, I gave my main character a tool that will allow him to easily accomplish most tasks.  I know, I'll have him jam it in the stone and never use it again!'

 

The sword would have made a number of situations easier.  Imagine Rand striking down the Shaido army when it first crossed the Dragonwall instead of using a little Angreal to hurl lightning bolts.  Imagine if he brought it with him when he fought any or all of the male forsaken.  I could list other examples, but you get the point.

 

When Rand finally does use the sword we learn that it 'supposedly' requires the man wielding it to link with two women and give control of the flows to one of the women.  Huh?

 

This is clearly a ret con.  If it had that limitation how was he able to use it with such precision in book four?  Why wouldn't Lanfear have told him about that limitation, especially when it could have given her an opportunity to link with him?  Why would the male forsaken have been so desperate to get it with such a crippling limitation?

 

There aren't a lot of 'oops' moments I can spot in the series, but this one really stands out.  It can be challenging as an author to give a character a McGuffin, and then deal with the fallout.  I really think RJ failed on this front.  I realize this will probably draw a lot of flak from the community, but this plot thread was poorly handled IMO.

[Luckers]

The problem with the sword is its lack of a buffer, which induces wildness of the mind due to its lens like effect on the taint. This is immediately apparent in Rand's mindless efforts to resuscitate a dead girl.

 

Which Rand also cites for his avoidance of using it throughout the series prior to Cadsuane's explanation of the cause. It was, in effect, there all along. RJ did not 'suddenly insert it' to deal with his main character having too powerful a weapon, it was there from the beginning.

 

This is clearly a ret con.  If it had that limitation how was he able to use it with such precision in book four?  Why wouldn't Lanfear have told him about that limitation, especially when it could have given her an opportunity to link with him?  Why would the male forsaken have been so desperate to get it with such a crippling limitation?

 

It's effect of inducing wildness of the mind has no influence on precision--just on what one does with that precision. Lanfear didn't tell him because 'why the hell should she'? She wasn't on his side, no matter what she said. Her linking with him would not have solved the problem anyway. As for the male forsaken, they are protected from the taint, so as long as they are careful to not overuse it (and thus kill themselve) they don't have a problem.

 

[Aiemond]

The problem with the sword is its lack of a buffer, which induces wildness of the mind due to its lens like effect on the taint. This is immediately apparent in Rand's mindless efforts to resuscitate a dead girl.

 

Which Rand also cites for his avoidance of using it throughout the series prior to Cadsuane's explanation of the cause. It was, in effect, there all along. RJ did not 'suddenly insert it' to deal with his main character having too powerful a weapon, it was there from the beginning.

 

This is clearly a ret con.  If it had that limitation how was he able to use it with such precision in book four?  Why wouldn't Lanfear have told him about that limitation, especially when it could have given her an opportunity to link with him?  Why would the male forsaken have been so desperate to get it with such a crippling limitation?

 

It's effect of inducing wildness of the mind has no influence on precision--just on what one does with that precision. Lanfear didn't tell him because 'why the hell should she'? She wasn't on his side, no matter what she said. Her linking with him would not have solved the problem anyway. As for the male forsaken, they are protected from the taint, so as long as they are careful to not overuse it (and thus kill themselve) they don't have a problem.

 

 

Well, in TPoD he seemed to have a precision problem with it, but it could have been the taint taking over. He hit his own camp instead of the seanchan even though that was not what he intended.

[Luckers]

No, he didn't. The weaves worked fine, it was how he applied them.

 

Remember the original poster asked how he could make something so intricate--my post was simply that the lack of a buffer didn't mean a lack of skill, simply a wildness in how he used that power.

[Aiemond]

No, he didn't. The weaves worked fine, it was how he applied them.

 

Remember the original poster asked how he could make something so intricate--my post was simply that the lack of a buffer didn't mean a lack of skill, simply a wildness in how he used that power.

 

True. It was like shooting the rocket launcher at your feet :P

[Arkelias]

If Rand could use it with the precision he did in the stone, how would hitting an enemy army a ways away be harder than that?  He didn't misuse the weaves.  How is that even possible?  He's had another couple of years to master the power, and is better with it by the time he uses Callandor again, not worse.  Blaming his weaves doesn't make any sense, not after the stone.

 

Rand's efforts to save the girl were NOT mindless.  He was holding more of the power than he ever had, and was desperate to bring her back.  That wasn't some cheesy effect of the sword, that was him being upset about a dead child.  It had nothing to do with a buffer, nor was the buffer mentioned at that stage of the book.  If I'm wrong there please cite a page reference.

 

Rand never once said he was avoiding using the sword because of a buffer.  He said he wasnt' using it because he was afraid of that much power being used, and what he could do with it.  If the buffer was an issue when he used it against the Seanchan it should have been an issue when he used it in the Stone.  It clearly wasn't based on what he accomplished there.

[WWWwombat]

If Rand could use it with the precision he did in the stone, how would hitting an enemy army a ways away be harder than that?  He didn't misuse the weaves.  How is that even possible?  He's had another couple of years to master the power, and is better with it by the time he uses Callandor again, not worse.  Blaming his weaves doesn't make any sense, not after the stone.

 

Rand's efforts to save the girl were NOT mindless.  He was holding more of the power than he ever had, and was desperate to bring her back.  That wasn't some cheesy effect of the sword, that was him being upset about a dead child.  It had nothing to do with a buffer, nor was the buffer mentioned at that stage of the book.  If I'm wrong there please cite a page reference.

 

Rand never once said he was avoiding using the sword because of a buffer.  He said he wasnt' using it because he was afraid of that much power being used, and what he could do with it.  If the buffer was an issue when he used it against the Seanchan it should have been an issue when he used it in the Stone.  It clearly wasn't based on what he accomplished there.

 

Rand trying to resurrect the girl can be explained by amplification of the taint as can his sending lightning among his own men.  He leaves Callandor in the stone because of the prophecies as well as being scared of it.  I think RJ was planning that, as it furthers the "Sword in the Stone" parallel.

[Luckers]

If Rand could use it with the precision he did in the stone, how would hitting an enemy army a ways away be harder than that?  He didn't misuse the weaves.  How is that even possible?  He's had another couple of years to master the power, and is better with it by the time he uses Callandor again, not worse.  Blaming his weaves doesn't make any sense, not after the stone.

 

Again, his skill in weaving is not effected by the flaw in Callandor, it is his mental stated which is effected. Neither the 'kill-shadowspawn' weave, nor the 'hundreds of lightning' bolts weave were simply.

 

The effect of the flaw is to increase the taint, which induces a wildness of the mind. In Tear it resulted in him trying desperately (in a rather macabre way) to resuscitate a dead child, in tPoD it had him pulling lightning from the heavens in droves.

 

It was there all along.

 

Rand's efforts to save the girl were NOT mindless.  He was holding more of the power than he ever had, and was desperate to bring her back.  That wasn't some cheesy effect of the sword, that was him being upset about a dead child.  It had nothing to do with a buffer, nor was the buffer mentioned at that stage of the book.  If I'm wrong there please cite a page reference.

 

The effects weren't cheesy, but they were of the sword. His natural inclination to save a child was heightened and made intense by the heightened influence of the taint resulting from the use of Callandor.

 

More to the point, Rand did not know it was the lack of a buffer which caused this. We did not learn that until Cadsuane told him. Nevertheless the lack of the buffer was the cause, and it's effects are referenced from the beginning.

 

Rand never once said he was avoiding using the sword because of a buffer.  He said he wasnt' using it because he was afraid of that much power being used, and what he could do with it.  If the buffer was an issue when he used it against the Seanchan it should have been an issue when he used it in the Stone.  It clearly wasn't based on what he accomplished there.

 

Rand not saying it was because of the buffer makes sense--he didn't know. But the wildness caused by the lack of the buffer is referenced from the very beginning, and Rand cites the incident with the dead child, and his fear of what it caused in him several times--which means whilst he wasn't aware of the cause, he was aware of the effect.

 

We did not have the explanation until later, but the effects were in play the whole time. Sorry.

[Tyrell]

The reason that linking is advised with Callandor is because in a circle it is impossible to over-draw the power and burn yourself out, in the same way that it isn't with most properly constructed angreal. I would suggest that the reason two women are suggested is either because

 

-With two women a woman can lead, so the guy who's feeling the taint doesn't have control.

-Cads is an Aes Sedai, AS of the present day are Megalomaniacs, they want one of their number in charge.

-Possibly the leader of a circle could still over-draw and burn themselves out though participant members can't do so.

[Arkelias]

I see what you guys are saying, but I still disagree.  The buffer is a way to rationalize the story, but to me its still a cheesy reason inserted later to explain why Callandor was left behind.  You can say RJ always intended it that way, and maybe you're right, but I still went 12 years believing something that was eventually changed. 

 

This is part of a larger issue I have with the series, though.  That issue is Rand himself.  His constant failures and flailing in the later book have destroyed the love I had for the character as originally presented. Falling off his horse in battle, losing his hand, not being able to channel without getting sick, mistake after mistake after mistake...it gets old.

 

What happened to the calm confident character who took the Stone, drove the Seanchan from Falme and boldy headed into the Aiel waste to bring the People of the Dragon under his banner?

 

Anyway, that's a topic for another thread.  Thanks for the replies guys!

[Voscaia Sedai]

One more point on Lanfear: She couldn't know about the flaw because she was sealed away when Callandor was crated during / after the Breaking! This is a major difference to the CK which were known to the Chosen towa rds the end of the WoP.

[Balefire to da face!]

I see what you guys are saying, but I still disagree.  The buffer is a way to rationalize the story, but to me its still a cheesy reason inserted later to explain why Callandor was left behind.  You can say RJ always intended it that way, and maybe you're right, but I still went 12 years believing something that was eventually changed. 

 

This is part of a larger issue I have with the series, though.  That issue is Rand himself.  His constant failures and flailing in the later book have destroyed the love I had for the character as originally presented. Falling off his horse in battle, losing his hand, not being able to channel without getting sick, mistake after mistake after mistake...it gets old.

 

What happened to the calm confident character who took the Stone, drove the Seanchan from Falme and boldy headed into the Aiel waste to bring the People of the Dragon under his banner?

 

Anyway, that's a topic for another thread.  Thanks for the replies guys!

 

I was dissapointed when Callandor proved to be flawed, too. It was very disheartning to see Rand "lose" to the Seanchan, also. You seem to be letting your dissapointment with Rand's character cloud your judgement, though. I never saw this as ret con, and I tend to be pretty meticulous when it comes to ret con cause I absolutely hate it.

 

Luckers explanation makes perfect sense. All of those things may have been employed by Jordan to keep Rand from being too powerful, too early, but they were in place from the beginning, not added later.....

[OptimusPrime]

I was dissapointed when Callandor proved to be flawed, too.

 

I think its brilliant. Look at all the other fantasy/medievil stories where the protagonist has his sword. King Arthur had excalibur. Belgarion had the Sword of the Rivan King, Rand al'Thor Richard Rahl had the sword of truth, Aragorn has that one that was remade in the last pile of crap...

 

I think its a brilliant idea; the one thing we were expecting Rand to have with him all the time, what some people would have expected to be his signature weapon, is dangerously flawed. Also, I find Rands fear of both Callandor and the Choeden Kal to be something most of us would relate to if we were in a similar situation. Imagine that you could deliver a fatal blow to the world. Then imagine not being able to control that strength, being paranoid that one slip and that fatal blow was delivered. I wouldnt be hanging on to it either.

[Arkelias]

Optimus, I hear this rationale about the series a lot, and I have to admit it drives me nuts.  "Look, RJ did it differently!  Instead of having a hero we care about I'll screw him over and over and crush reader expectations.  See, my books are different!"

 

Its not accidental that the later books have a 1 star rating on Amazon.  Screwing over your protagonist over and over doesn't make people want to keep reading.  Having it happen occasionally is ok, but most people read fantasy for a reason.  If I wanted to see people getting screwed over constantly I'd watch the news.

 

Regarding Callandor I -can- see the rationale Luckers is using.  My point is that the READER didn't know anything about this.  Nothing is shown in the series in books 3-7 to suggest anything is wrong with Callandor, not until Cadsuane brings it up.  It doesn't matter what RJ intended, it matters what his readers knew and had access to.

 

I read each of the books as they came out, and to suddenly have the rug jerked out from under Rand AGAIN is like a smack in the face.  It really is a pity, because following the early books RJ had what could have been the best epic story ever told.

 

It was decisions like this that will prevent the series from ever wearing that honor.  There are others, of course, but I won't belabor them here.  I started the thread about Callandor, and I want to stay on topic.

 

Having something introduced that you explain in a certain way fixes it in the reader's mind.  Changing that without any warning is a ret con in my opinion.  If RJ wanted it that way from the beginning there were any number of ways he could have introduced that information to the reader.

 

God knows he likes random view points from characters we don't care about and never see again.  You couldn't have introduced this very vital information sooner?

 

Also, here's the flaw in Lucker's logic.  If the sword is flawed because of the buffer every time its used you should have the problem right?  When rand used it to kill all the trollocs why didn't the flows go wild?  Him healing the child was a separate use of the power.

 

Even if I accept that the sword was making him irrational in that scene, which I don't, it should STILL have exhibited some sort of problem when he nuked the shadowspawn with it.  Why did that go perfectly when everything else went awry?  Why wasn't his judgement clouded then?  Shouldn't he have had a similar reaction to when he rained lightning on the Seanchan?

 

Maybe RJ intended it otherwise, but if its this hard for a reader whos read the series multiple times to see then he did a poor job of it.  When an author writes a story he makes an intellectual promise to his readers.  Nothing pisses off a reader more than having that implicit promise broken, and that's exactly what he did here.

 

Your facts line up Luckers, and looking back at the series through the lens of hindsight you can make things line up to fit your hypothesis.  I can accept that.  It's still stupid, and a poorly conceived part of the story. 

 

I don't expect you to agree, and I do respect your opinions.  I'm just stating mine.  Obviously I love the series or I wouldn't be so passionate about it.  Its just hard watching the man butcher his own series in the later books =/

 

 

[Moorz]

I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who is annoyed with RJ's treatment of Rand. I used to love him as a character whereas now everything he does frustrates me. I know RJ was doing this to Rands character for a reason but it's gone too far.

 

In my mind Mat is now the most interesting character in the book. I look forward to his PoV the most.

[Arkelias]

Here here Moorz!  We lost Perrin to Faile and Rand to madness and incompetence =(

 

At least we still have Mat!

[Moorz]

I just hope we don't lose Mat to Tuon.

 

Things will be getting bad if Egwene becomes my favourite!!

[Arkelias]

You know what's really scary?  Nyneave is becoming one of my favorite characters now that she's more humble =O

 

Tuon seems like a cool character so far, and I like the interplay between her and Mat.  Hopefully that doesn't change!

[Moorz]

I have re-read the Tuon - Mat characters again and again. I could almost quote them. I agree with you on Nynaeve - I can't believe it. Who would have thought it - I wanted to pull that damn braid off her head formthe last 10 books and all of a sudden it's changing.

 

Maybe it's how she is standing up to Cadusuane (kind of anyway).

 

Maybe it's the coolness of Lan rubbing off on her.

 

Or maybe it's her scene when she sends Lan to Worlds End and starts the process of recruiting his army - "The Golden Crane flies for Tarmon Gai'don".

[Tyrell]

I do think there is some... throttling of Rand's power level involved in the decision to make Callandor flawed, and to have him loose his fat man Angreal, and for him to be reluctant to use the Cheodan Kal. It's half forced and half necessary but it works. The story would be a lot more boring if he just took Callandor / male CK and conquered the world one lunch time; with either he could probably take on either the tower or the rebels in direct combat and win. A few supercharged weaves and boom game over. 

[Arkelias]

I liked his relucatance to use Callandor.  What I didn't like is when he finally DOES use it, it blows up in his face.  We waited five books for him to finally claim Callandor, a little mayhem against the Seanchan would have been nice instead of yet another failure.

[OptimusPrime]

Optimus, I hear this rationale about the series a lot, and I have to admit it drives me nuts.  "Look, RJ did it differently!  Instead of having a hero we care about I'll screw him over and over and crush reader expectations.  See, my books are different!"

 

 

Except theyre your books as well, arent they? Because you're talking about them as much as I am. Excuse me for liking something because it isnt the same as everything else.

 

Im tired of some old hyped up sword being the thing that makes the main guy the main guy. The sword identifies the guy for who he is and ends up being the only thing-or at least a main contributer-that sets him apart. At last, we have a character that doesnt get all of his power from yet another plot significant sword.

 

Callandor is crap. Deal with it.

[Arkelias]

Who pissed in your Wheaties, Optimus?  No need to get hostile because I disagree with your stance. 

 

In many fantasy series the sword defines the man.  Even if Callandor were not flawed it hardly defines Rand.  He's done almost nothing with it, and all in all its a minor part of the series.  Nor am I suggesting that change or that Rand's sword be super uber cool.  How about just not broken?  Callandor could have been a carving of a fish and not a sword and I wouldn't have cared.  My issue is Rand failing constantly, and in this instance how Callandor was changed to make that happen yet again.

 

I wasn't attacking your point of view, I was expressing mine.  Yes, they are my books just as they belong to everyone who's taken a measure of enjoyment from them over the years.  I have a right to my opinion, you have a right to yours.  In the same way that the super cool sword bothers me, Rand sucking in every way imaginable and constantly failing bothers me.  Deal with it.

 

If you like that part of the series great.  Obviously more people agree with me than with you.  Go check the reviews on Amazon if you don't believe me.  Many are heartfelt and express exactly what I'm saying here.  Many thousands of people.

 

Regardless of what they say or what I say why are you threatened by it?  My opinion doesn't invalidate yours.  Chill out man.

[McCBass]

Weren't all the Asha'Man's weaves acting funny during the battle with the Seanchan?  Something like the weaves were jumping?  I think Dashiva (Osan'gar?) got wicked angry at Rand and told him that Saidin was strange or something to that effect.  I think it had something to do with the Bowl of the Winds the SuperGirls used. 

 

I agree that finding out Callandor was flawed was a big downer, but it really doesn't change much.  Rand hardly used the thing  before he found out about the flaw, so the fact that he's probably not going to use it in the future really doesn't matter a whole lot.

[Hybrid]

Weren't all the Asha'Man's weaves acting funny during the battle with the Seanchan?  Something like the weaves were jumping?  I think Dashiva (Osan'gar?) got wicked angry at Rand and told him that Saidin was strange or something to that effect.  I think it had something to do with the Bowl of the Winds the SuperGirls used. 

Exactly.

 

I liked his relucatance to use Callandor.  What I didn't like is when he finally DOES use it, it blows up in his face.  We waited five books for him to finally claim Callandor, a little mayhem against the Seanchan would have been nice instead of yet another failure.

The Seanchan disagree with you.  After all, they thought they lost that battle.