Third Man, Rand/Moridin Link.

[Luckers]

The FAQ asks the question of who the random third fellow in Rand's head is.

 

http://www.siliconcerebrate.com/faqs/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.1_taveren/2.1.7_thirdman.html

 

Essentially the third man is Moridin. We learn this in KoD-18-News For the Dragon.

 

Abruptly another image was floating in his head, a man's face, and his breath caught. For the first time, it came without any dizziness. For the first time he could see it clearly in the moments before it vanished. A blue-eyes man with a square chin, perhaps a few years older than himself. Or rather, he saw it clearly for the first time in a long while. It was the fact of the stranger who had saved his life in Shadar Logoth when he fought Sammael.

 

As for how Moridin manifesting in Rand's head, Rand himself figured that out.

 

When our streams of balefire touched in Shadar Logoth it must have created some sort of link between us. I can't think of any other explanation. That was the only time we ever met. He was using their so-called True Power. It had to be that. I felt nothing, saw nothing except his stream of balefire.

 

And indeed, we see that link form.

 

Without a thought, his free hand rose, and balefire shot upward, a bar of liquid white fire slicing across the wave sinking toward them. Dimly he was aware of another bar of pale solid fire rising from the other man's hand that was not clasping his, a bar slashing the opposite way from his. The two touched.

 

Head ringing like a struck gong, Rand convulsed, saidin and the Void shattering. everything was doubled in his eyes, the balconies, the chunks of stone lying about the floor. There seemed to be a pair of the other man overlapping one another, each clutching his head between two hands. Blinking, Rand searched for Mashadar. The wave of shining mist was gone; a glow remained in the balconies above, but dimming, receding, as Rand's eyes began to clear. Even mindless Mashadar fled balefire, it seemed.

 

[aCoS-41-A Crown of Swords]

 

And it is on the next page that we first see the link active.

 

Suddenly he realized that he had not felt saidin when the man made balefire, either. Just thinking of that, of the two streams touching, made his vision double again. Just for an instant, he could see the man's face again, sharp where everything else blurred.

 

[aCoS-41-A Crown of Swords]

 

This raises the question--exactly how does the link work. It seems to have two different roles, the first being passive, and the second active.

 

Passive Transferal

 

The thread already lists other passive transfer--Rand seeing Moridin's face in his dreams, Lews therin listing him as a destroyer, and so on. In CoT we learn that's continued and that Rand is not getting foggy visions of Moridin's face awake...

 

He no longer feared killing Min or Elayne or Aviendha any more than he feared going mad. Madder than he already was, at least, with a dead man in his head, and sometimes a foggy face he could almost recognize

 

[CoT-24-A Strengthening Storm]

 

There are also references to the foggy or vague face in WH-22-Out of Thin Air and WH-35-With the Choedan Kal.

 

Later in the CoT-24 we see that just as with Lews Therin, knowledge and thoughts seem to be filtering through the link. In CoT we see Rand wax poetic about the Creator...

 

Did he think the Creator had decided to stretch out a merciful hand after three thousand years of suffering? The Creator had made the world and then left humankind to make of it what they would, a heaven or the Pit of Doom by their choosing. The Creator had made many worlds, watched each flower or die, and gone on to make endless worlds beyond. A gardener did not weep for each blossom that fell.

 

For an instant, he thought those must have been Lews Therin’s reflections. He had never gone on that way about the Creator or anything else that he recalled. But he could feel Lews Therin nodding in approval, a man listening to someone else. Still, it was not the kind of thing he would have considered before Lews Therin. How much space remained between them?

 

[CoT-24-A Strengthening Storm]

 

Now Rand concludes that this must come from an amalgamation of his and Lews Therin's thoughts, but that's only because he knows Lews Therin didn't say it and couldn't think of who else might--and the reality is that this seems much more in tune with Moridin given his philosophical background.

 

Active Transferal

 

The passive transferal seems to just flow through when ever, but the the link seems to be tied in with saidin--specifically whenever Rand draws on, or releases saidin it activates the link. I'll touch more on the significance of the fact that it is only when he draws on, or releases the source later. But for now, we first witness the channeling sickness in tPoD.

 

Reluctantly he let go of the Power, forced himself not to hang on like a man clutching salvation with his fingernails as life and filth drained from him together. For an instant, he saw double; the world seemed to tilt dizzily. That was a recent problem, and he worried it might be part of the sickness that killed men who channeled, but the dizziness never lasted more than moments.

 

[tPoD-Floating Like Snow]

 

From there it continues, whenever he gathers or releases saidin. There was hot debate between whether it was the Taint or the Link which was causing this. Rand himself assumed it was the taint, and in addition to Morr that is the main reason he buckles down in Winter's Heart to cleanse it. Afterwards he is at a loss to explain whilst it is still there.

 

That did not stop nausea from rising in Rand, though, the violent urge to bend double and empty himself on the floor. The room seemed to spin for an instant, and he had to put a hand on the nearest bedpost to steady himself. He did not know why he should still feel this sickness, with the taint gone.

 

[CoT-24-A Strengthing Storm]

 

But the Winter's Heart Prologue rules this out. In it we witness the dizziness come without saidin, but with the image of Moridin.

 

“You should have picked smaller books, “ he told her, pulling on riding gloves to hide the Dragons. “Or lighter.” He turned toward the window, to fetch the leather scrip, and a wave of dizziness hit him. Knees turning to water, he stumbled. A shimmering face he could not make out flashed through his head. With an effort, he caught himself, forced his legs straight. And the whirling sensation vanished.

 

LewsTherin panted hoarsely in the shadows. Could the face be his?

 

“If you think you’ll make me carry them all that way, think again,” Min grumbled. “I’ve seen better pretending from stablehands. You could try falling down.”

 

“Not this time.” He was ready for what happened when he channeled; he could control it to some extent. Usually. Most of the time. This dizziness without saidin was new. Maybe he had just turned too fast. And maybe pigs did fly... ”

 

[WH-Prologue-Snow]

 

Now the problem here is in the question of how the link could become active without Rand siezing or releasing saidin, as is the case every other time he experiences the nausea. The likely answer is that this time it was Moridin's channeling that activated the link instead of Rand's. There is more support for that being the case, but I'll address that in a second.

 

In any case it is confirmed completely that the neusea is caused by the link. Specifically, in KoD, we see the reverse occuring--Rand activating the link, experiencing the nausea, and seeing Moridin.

 

with saidin came the inevitable violent nausea, the almost overwhelming desire to double over and empty himself of every meal he had ever eaten. His knees trembled with it. He fought that as hard as he fought the Power, and saidin had to be fought ever and always. A man forced saidin to his will, or it destroyed him. The face of the man from Shadar Logoth floated in his head for a moment. He looked furious. And near to sicking up. Without any doubt he was aware of Rand in that moment, and Rand of him. Move a hair in any direction and they would touch. No more than a hair.

 

[KoD-21-Within the Stone]

 

So drawing and releasing saidin is what facilitates the link into becoming active, and it is the link that causes the nausea. Moreover Moridin is experiencing the nausea when Rand is activating the link, and given the Winter's Heart prologue, Rand is experiencing it when Moridin does.

 

Curiously, it seems to be saidin that activates it for both men. This seems strange, one would think that it would be channeling the True Power which caused this in Moridin given that it was the TP he was channeling when the link was formed, nevertheless given that Moridin seems to be using the TP without issue, and Demandres states that he is now using it exclusively after three thousand years of using both it and saidin in mixture.

 

Demandred flinched in spite of himself. That had been the True Power; he had felt nothing. A black speck floated across Moridin's blue eyes, then another, in a steady stream. The man must have been using the True Power exclusively since he last saw him to gain so many saa so quickly.[WH-13-Wonderful News]

 

So, it would appear that Saidin is the contributing factor in activating the link for Moridin as well. I have a possible explanation for this.

 

Why Saidin? And Why Does the Link Cause Nausea?

 

Firstly, on the nausea, consider the initial descriptions RJ uses to describe the formation of, and first activation of the link. "Head ringing like a struck gong, Rand convulsed, saidin and the Void shattering. everything was doubled in his eyes, the balconies, the chunks of stone lying about the floor. There seemed to be a pair of the other man overlapping one another, each clutching his head between two hands." and "Just thinking of that, of the two streams touching, made his vision double again. Just for an instant, he could see the man's face again, sharp where everything else blurred."

 

In both cases the link affected his perception, which is not unreasonable given the description of the trauma Rand underwent. However concider this, as time passes Rand slowly begins to percieve an imperfect image through the link--Moridin's face--and at the same time this perception induces nausea. Note that the one time Rand does perfectly percieve Moridin he does not feel the nausea. Rand even remarks on it. "Abruptly another image was floating in his head, a man's face, and his breath caught. For the first time, it came without any dizziness."

 

In effect the nausea is being caused by the weakness of the link. The perceptions coming to him of Moridin (or from Moridin? Or both?) are disjointed, vague and fuzzy. Worse yet it seems to be going straight into his brain before his concious mind becomes aware of it (or can make enough sense of it) to process an image from it. It is this that I would suggest is causing the violent nausea.

 

From this point, though not entirely related to it, we can deduce that the link is growing stronger. It started with a vague jumble that his concious mind couldn't even process, slowly stablizing and thus putting forth an imperfect image, and then beyond that into a fully cohesive image, which when percieved does not induce the nausea, until finally in the very last activation of the link that we witness in KoD 21 Rand states "Without any doubt he was aware of Rand in that moment, and Rand of him. Move a hair in any direction and they would touch. No more than a hair."

 

So, the link has been steadily growing stronger, and based on the above quote, it is also steadily pulling Rand and Moridin's souls closer together, by which I mean that not only are perceptions passing through the link, but it is also having a very real effect on both Rand and Moridin--it is not just a string between to cans, used for passing information along. It's almost like a bungy rope, connecting, but also drawing them together.

 

But, to continue the cans and string analogy, if the link is the string, and Rand and Moridin are people listening to the cans, then what are the cans themselves? Of course Rand and Moridin might be the cans, but the fact that some of what is passing through the link seems to be going straight into Rand's subconcious before his concious mind puts it together suggests that there is another element.

 

My suggestion would be that the link is based in the part of their souls that they use to reach out and touch saidin. Consider, channelers souls  have a natural affinity to each other in that area; a certain resonance exists between them. Like calling to like, as it were. This link seems to be attempting to do the same thing, so it makes sense that it would form in the parts of their soul that already have an attraction.

 

Furthermore, as I pointed out above, the link is actived only when reaching out to touch saidin, or in releasing it. In effect the link is only active when that 'ethric arm' (that connection or extension of the soul or whatever it is precisely that Nynaeve notices as have been cut off in Logain) is being used.

 

Also consider that there is a pre-existing a natural affinity between channelers which seems based in that 'ethric arm'. Women can sense 'the ability' in other women, and sense it as an attraction, a sense of kinship. Men's senses are more limited, but there is still a resonance between the souls of male channelers. A certain sense of like calling to like. This link seems to be slowly bringing them more in tune with each other, so it it makes sense that it would form in the parts of their soul that already have an attraction.

 

These two points are my answer to the question of why this is affecting Moridin's ability to channel saidin--the link is based in (occurred in, is of, etc) the parts of their soul designed to touch saidin. Of course RJ stated a normal shield (which seems to work as a constriction of that 'ethric arm') would stop someone being able to channel the True Power, which seems to suggest that the arm is used in channeling the True Power, however it would make sense that what could keep something in can keep something out, and thus the arm may not be involved at all.

 

Or it is involved and there is still some element of this that we don't understand--maybe its all in the like calling like, and use of the arm to touch the True Power doesn't resonate enough to activate the link.

 

 

So What Does All This Mean? What Comes Next?

 

The link is growing stronger, and Rand and Moridin are coming closer and closer together. There has been fierce argument about what this link may result in, but thankfully we finally have the answer.

 

 

 

Demandred looked up as Graendal glided through the arch. She paused momentarily and looked at him, amused. "You choose the Hall of Servants for our meeting place this time?"

 

"Enough of that," he growled. "What news of the battle?"

 

She walked over and took a seat opposite him, and only when she was well placed did she speak. "Al'thor and Moridin have swapped bodies."

 

"WHAT?!"

 

Demandred cast a look of distaste at the man sitting in the eleventh chair. "Control yourself Majsju."

 

"This is not possible." Majsju spluttered.

 

"I assure you it is." Graendal said placidly. "I saw something very similar in Tzora a hundred years before the war. It was not as spectacular, or ironic, as this though."

 

"NO!" Even Graendal flinched at Majsju scream of anguish. "NO!"

 

Demandred jumped to his feet. "Calm down--"

 

Majsju fell to his knees screamed the wordless screams of the innately falliable, and nearby Shaidar Luckers looked upon what he had wrought, and was content.

 

[tGS-Epilogue-The Light Grows Dim]

 

So there we have it boys and girls. A bodyswap. I guess we know now why the epilogue gave Jason the shivers.

 

I may have fudged some facts at the end there. It's better this way.

 

 

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Luckers, are you saying you support the bodyswap idea?!

[sheikh chilli]

this body swap idea is the most nonsensical stuff. what's this now?sylar's heroes

[The Desert Pea]

this body swap idea is the most nonsensical stuff. what's this now?sylar's heroes

 

How is it nonsensical? Nothing else even makes sense right now.

[Luckers]

Luckers, are you saying you support the bodyswap idea?!

 

Are you being ironic? I was the one who came up with it. That's what that joke was--Maj, i believe, was the first to respond back in the day, and ever since its been a fun hatred between us.

 

That parts just a joke, the rest of the thread was the point--someone was confused about the link in the tGS forum so I figured I'd throw it out there. But its not supposed to be bolded like that. I'll fix it.

[OptimusPrime]

Luckers I think you could have given you and Maj proper Shadowed up names. And you missed the icing on the cake.

 

Ba'alOptimus: Let the lord of chaos rule!

[Luckers]

Yes, because Majsju is so 'not' a Forsaken name. It actually means 'bringer of annoyingly well-researched opposition'.

 

And as for Shaidar Luckers, it translates as 'Luck to the Shadow'... which seems reasonable.

 

But 'Ba'alOptimus'? What's that--'be upbeat, you're about to be bitchslapped into permenant death by Moiraine'?

[OptimusPrime]

Well, considering that half the time I think Im Terry Goodkind and that despite being a human being I think Im a robot, well... Put it this way; instead of saying "I win again, Lews Therin" I'll be saying "Honestly, Ive never read Wheel of Time."

 

So yeah. Gotta give Moiraine the credit.

[Matrim DeLaneous]

As laid out in a few posts, this BS theory is always an interesting read.  However, when broken down to its simplest premises & conclusions, I'm still not convinced that it is any more likely than some other, indisclosed outcome. 

 

I'm still not sure <I may have missed it> how the BS theory addresses "Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed" prophecy. 

 

Yes, the bond / link with Moridin is unique and getting stronger.  But, similar to the link between the 3 ta'veren, I'm not sure there's any definitive proof how it will come into play in the last 3 books.  This link with Moridin may be what brings to the two champions together for TG?  It may also allow Rand to access the True Power to drain the Dark One?  I don't know, IMO these possibilities seem less "fantastical" than the BS theory, and as such, seem just as (if not more)likely. 

 

<ready for a pounding now>

[Padraic_Seebrr]

I have my own little theory I have devised while being bored out of my mind in school. Ok, this might just blow your mind. Rand is in TG, fighting the Dark One, when he suddenly comes to the point where he has to "die" according to prophecy. So he dies, and then since hes a Hero of the Horn, goes to T.A.R. Now remember, before Birgitte was Elayne's warder she was in T.A.R., then she was physically pulled out of it. So here it is, Rands chillin in T.A.R., and Elayne pops in with her ring and physically pulls him out. So bam, Rand was dead, then he's pulled out of T.A.R. physically, so hes alive again. And then, if he dies again, same thing! Amazing right?

[Hybrid]

Rand al'Thor, the Dragon of a Thousand Deaths  ;D

[OptimusPrime]

He wouldnt be in TAR in the flesh so he couldnt just come back. I asked a question on this in another thread, about whether or not Rand could be in TAR after dying and take over someone else who is there in the flesh, and then step back out, in someone elses body.

[mb]

The epilogue posted had to have been fan-made.  Doubtfully any of the books having anything like that.

 

That 'passive transferal' section of the post, I am not sure if the things there resulted from the balefire incident.

 

The sickness I think comes from two balefires trying to destroy each other.  Not sure if there would have been a difference than if both used saidin to weave the balefire.

 

If anything swaps, I think it would be just the heads since no other body part seems to have changed (which I think would have been mentioned if they did change).

 

[Luckers]

I'm still not sure <I may have missed it> how the BS theory addresses "Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed" prophecy.  

 

It doesn't. For one that may not even refer to his death--it could refer to a wounding, or to the deaths of Aiel--in effect it could refer to some entirely seperate situation.

 

Don't get me wrong, there are ways that I could work it into the bodyswap--for instance the bodyswaps activation involves a double stream of perception, and as such 'twice dawns the day' may have nothing the do with the day dawning twice, but of Rand percieving the dawn in two levels... consider, this is how he describes the initial formation of the link. "Everything was doubled in his eyes, the balconies, the chunks of stone lying about the floor. There seemed to be a pair of the other man overlapping one another, each clutching his head between two hands. "

 

Also, that prophecy continues on to say, "Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul. In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow." Red and black are Moridin's colours.

 

But ultimately we don't know enough about that prophecy. It could mean an eclipse or some funky time travel thing going on (we know the sky above the pit of doom is not the sky above the rest of the world, so Rand could see the dawn in the real world, and again in the Dark One's funky world. Maybe the breaking of dawn through through that crazy clouds will occur when the Dark One's defeated and his power is broken).

 

We just don't know. But my point wasn't to explain every aspect, merely to provide an explanation for every requirement established by the prophecies surrounding Rand's death--in particular when they contradict each other. This prophecy, if it does relate to Rand's death, is only setting the scenery, location and time. None of those things are opposed anywhere, but nor are they predictable based on what we know, so I didn't involve them. I have guesses on them but the point of this theory was to limit guesses by establishing requirements.

 

I have my own little theory I have devised while being bored out of my mind in school. Ok, this might just blow your mind. Rand is in TG, fighting the Dark One, when he suddenly comes to the point where he has to "die" according to prophecy. So he dies, and then since hes a Hero of the Horn, goes to T.A.R. Now remember, before Birgitte was Elayne's warder she was in T.A.R., then she was physically pulled out of it. So here it is, Rands chillin in T.A.R., and Elayne pops in with her ring and physically pulls him out. So bam, Rand was dead, then he's pulled out of T.A.R. physically, so hes alive again. And then, if he dies again, same thing! Amazing right?

 

Its been suggested before, the major problem with it being that what came out wouldn't be Rand any more than Lews Therin is Rand. And as i raised in the original bodyswap thread, some aspect of Rand's personal nature must survive--and more than that must survive co-currently with his death.

 

The epilogue posted had to have been fan-made.  Doubtfully any of the books having anything like that.

 

Was it the presence of mine and Majsju's names that gave it away mb?

 

It was a joke.

[WWWwombat]

But Rand and Lews Therin are the same soul...

[mb]

The epilogue posted had to have been fan-made.  Doubtfully any of the books having anything like that.

Was it the presence of mine and Majsju's names that gave it away mb?

More than that, though that was the main thing.  The other things said seem unlike previous things they said.

 

It was a joke.

Best to not use jokes to prove a theory.

 

[Luckers]

The epilogue posted had to have been fan-made.  Doubtfully any of the books having anything like that.

Was it the presence of mine and Majsju's names that gave it away mb?

More than that, though that was the main thing.  The other things said seem unlike previous things they said.

 

It was a joke.

Best to not use jokes to prove a point.

 

 

It wasn't to prove a point, or even to make a point, it was a joke. Me and Majsju like to take little snipes at each other every now and then. The sheer absurdity of the quote should have made that clear mb. Try to lighten up.

 

But Rand and Lews Therin are the same soul...

 

But completely different people.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Well Birgitte pretty much kept the same personality when she was pulled out of T.A.R., so why shouldn't Rand? Also, Birgitte's memories are currently fading, so maybe she will soon only be able to remember her latest life and the one she is currently living. If that is indeed what will happen, then the Rand thing could work O.o. Also, to Optimusprime, it wouldn't be Rand in the flesh in T.A.R., it would be him there waiting to get spun out again in T.A.R. So your argument is invalid. :P.

[OptimusPrime]

Shame on you Luckers! Your sense of humor will damn you to hell! How dare you make us think you and Maj are in the next book?!?!

[Luckers]

Well Birgitte pretty much kept the same personality when she was pulled out of T.A.R., so why shouldn't Rand? Also, Birgitte's memories are currently fading, so maybe she will soon only be able to remember her latest life and the one she is currently living. If that is indeed what will happen, then the Rand thing could work O.o. Also, to Optimusprime, it wouldn't be Rand in the flesh in T.A.R., it would be him there waiting to get spun out again in T.A.R. So your argument is invalid. :P.

 

No, Birgitte had her amalgamated personality in TAR, and retained it when she was pulled out. Rand, having died, would return to TAR as his amalgamated personality. He would not be Rand or Lews Therin, but the combination of those two and all other incarnations. Given how different Rand and Lews Therin are its fair to say we would not recognise the result. He wouldn't be Rand.

 

 

[Matrim DeLaneous]

I'm still not sure <I may have missed it> how the BS theory addresses "Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed" prophecy.  

 

It doesn't. For one that may not even refer to his death--it could refer to a wounding, or to the deaths of Aiel--in effect it could refer to some entirely seperate situation.

 

Don't get me wrong, there are ways that I could work it into the bodyswap

 

From the encyclopedia / TGH , ch26

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."

IMO, the reference to 'mourning', arguably connects this prophecy to Rand's death.  With that said, my original point is that the Rand / Moridin link can be viably worked in to other possibilities as well.   For intance, maybe by using the OP and the TP, Rand (and possibly a circle) will find a way to turn the wheel back, thus initiaiting a replay of the last day.   

 

[Matrim DeLaneous]

[best to not use jokes to prove a point.

Dude!!

[Luckers]

I'm still not sure <I may have missed it> how the BS theory addresses "Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed" prophecy.  

 

It doesn't. For one that may not even refer to his death--it could refer to a wounding, or to the deaths of Aiel--in effect it could refer to some entirely seperate situation.

 

Don't get me wrong, there are ways that I could work it into the bodyswap

 

From the encyclopedia / TGH , ch26

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."

IMO, the reference to 'mourning', arguably connects this prophecy to Rand's death.  With that said, my original point is that the Rand / Moridin link can be viably worked in to other possibilities as well.   For intance, maybe by using the OP and the TP, Rand (and possibly a circle) will find a way to turn the wheel back, thus initiaiting a replay of the last day.   

 

 

Could be worked into, but they still would not fulfil all the stated requirements in prophecy. The only theory to date to do so is the bodyswap.

 

Of course that being said I again acknowledge that that doesn't make the bodyswap certain. My claim has only ever been that based on our CURRENT knowledge of the situation it is the only viable explanation, by which I mean the only current theory which addresses each requirement established in prophecy. There is completely the possibility of new developments, or random interaction--certainly previous events in the books have shown that.

 

I don't say the bodyswap is definate, I say that where we sit now it is the only explanation to explain all the requisit points. Things change and I have no problem if new events move the flow away from this.

[mb]

Modified my comment.

 

[OptimusPrime]

Modified my comment.

 

 

Luckers wasnt trying to prove a theory with that joke either mb. It was purely for amusement and shouldnt be read into whatsoever.