Our heroes and villains during the time of Jesus

[Monitor]

The battle between evil and good has taken place many times. Important persons may return but with new roles. So who from Rand's time would be who during the time of Jesus?

 

Jesus - Rand. The savior who will die in order to save the world. Who then will be resurrected. The wound in the side is similar, as is the crown of swords to the crown of thorns, as is markings on his hands/arms to Jesus' wounds from the spikes. Car'a'carn/Coramoor is similar to Messiah. Jesus was born to virgin, Rand to maiden. The devil is tempting Jesus and seems to consider converting him to be more important than killing him, as is the dark one with Rand.

 

Judas - Mat. Both among the closest followers. Judas turned to dark side due to greed, Mat almost due to the dagger and greed. Both hanged. Both receiving silver as payment.

 

Peter - Perrin. Both among the earliest and most trusted and dependable of followers. Peter was a major (spiritual) leader in Jesus' homeland after the crucification, as Perrin is now and likely will be after TG.

 

Paulus - Logain. Both late in joining the movement but was or is likely to be among the most important leaders after the crucification/TG of the institutions Jesus/Rand created. The influence of church spread over the world, the influence of the dark tower is likely to do similarly.

 

Three women finding the empty tomb - Aviendha, Elayne, and Min.

 

Mary Magdalene - Nynaeve. Mary Magdalene was likely the most prominent female follower of Jesus and the first to see him after the resurrection. Nynaeve is certainly prominent as having together with Rand cleansed the taint and maybe her healing will be important for resurrecting Rand.

 

Mary - Moiraine. If anyone is Rand's (spiritual) mother it is Moiraine who guided him while still Rand still was weak and innocent.

 

Joseph - Lan. See above.

 

Fallen angels - Forsaken. Although Lanfear deserves mention as similar to Eve (Paaran Disen = Paradise).

 

Legion - Slayer. Both being several minds in one body.

 

None - Padan Fain/Mordeth. Outside the pattern.

[Asgard Thorin]

I don't think they really compare. According to the Faith, Jesus is not only perfect, but the Son of God, meaning the He is God, the Father, Son, Holy Spirit being the Three Persons of the One God.

 

Whether you credit that or not, a sacrifice is supposed to be perfect. Rand is not perfect. Of course, that is not a stipulation of the prophecies. I don't think Rand is really a sacrifice.

[Solarian]

(Paaran Disen = Paradise).

 

You just blew my mind

 

 

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

There are hundreds of links to religion and/or myths throughout WoT.

 

Here’s a little something I put together, with the gracious help of others, linking WoT to Arthurian legend:

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,37627.0.html

 

I thought it’d be quite interesting to do a run down on a few of the links between WoT and existing legends.

 

You never know, there might be an interesting little nugget in there that could give us a clue about the plot of AoL.

 

And yes, this has been done before.

 

Rand and Arthur

There are numerous links, some tenuous others less so, between Rands story and the Arthurian legends.

 

The Names

Al Thor – Arthur

While the easiest mythological link to Rands name is the Norse god of thunder, there is a striking similarity between the protagonists name and that of Arthur. Looking a little closer, you can find other links between character names and Arthurian legend.

 

Igerna / Igraine - Tigraine

Arthur’s mother, and a striking similarity between the names.

 

Uther Pendragon

Arthur’s father. No apparent similarities to Tam.

 

However, and I realize this might seem obvious … look at his surname. Again, yes, it’s an obvious point … but, studying Arthurian characters, the links are clear. Perhaps this is the most obvious reference.

 

The Names

Al Thor – Arthur Uther Pendragon

Arthur Pendragon = Artur Paendrag? Uther Pendragon = Luthair Paendrag?

 

Thank you, Mr Ares.

 

Uther Pendragon

- A source of details?

Uthers forces apparently rode under banners showing dragons, some sort of prophetic sign is credited with inspiring the king to take the dragon as his sign.

 

Uhter’s wife, and Arthur’s mother was Igrane or Igraine.

 

--- In WoT, Tigraine is Rands mother.

 

He dies by poisioning.

 

Arthur Pendragon = Artur Paendrag

The use of Arthur’s name suggests a close tie to Hawkwing.

 

Arthur forged an empire consisting of the British Isles, Ireland, parts of Northern France, and possibly Norway.

 

Arthur planned to march on Rome, but returned to Britain upon news of the Mordred-led rebellion.

 

Historians have been unable to verify that Arthur ever existed.

 

Morgase - Morgause

Arthur’s half-sister, daughter of Arthur’s father, Uther Pendragon, and Igraine. She has a sister called Elaine.

 

Mother of Gawain and two other sons.

 

She is killed by one of her sons for sleeping with his enemy, for some reason the son lets his mothers lover go, and the other sons, believing the lover killed Moragause, swear vengeance and hunt him down.

 

- Does that last paragraph ring any bells?

 

Egwene al’Vere = Guinevere

Another Arthurian connection that you forgot to mention is the similarity in name between Guinavere and Egwene al'Vere. 

 

The only real connection I see is that Guinavere was a queen and Egwene is the Amyrllin which is a good as if not better than being queen.  I guess you could also argue that each was part of a rebel faction since Guinavere was the cause the Lancelot's rebellion against Arthur and Egwene is the leader of the rebel Aes Sedi. 

A more tenuous comparison between Guinavere and Egwene Al'Vere, both are originally the love interest of the hero (King Arthur and Rand Al'Thor, respectively) who somewhat innocently fall for a Knight.

Once again, thanks to Cuba and Leopoled B.

 

A little filler:

 

Guinevere was the wife of Arthur, famous from her affair with Lancelot. The affair is brought to Arthur’s attention by Mordred.

 

Guinevere is sentenced to death, and is due to be burnt on a pyre, until Lancelot and his allies rescue her from Arthur’s knights, starting the war.

 

It is noted that Gawain (a knight loyal to Arthur) does attempt to prevent the rescue of Guinevere, despite being ordered to by Arthur. Though, in some versions of the story, Gawain instigates the war and later fights Lancelot, suggesting that his decision to avoid the confrontation over Guinevere was not out of loyalty to Lancelot, but to the queen.

 

Darth Andrea has highlighted the possibility that Gawyn is modeled on Lancelot rather than Gawain, based upon the Lancelot – Guinevere connection:

Perhaps then that would make Gawyn, the Lancelot character. Seeing how he feels about Rand he could very well go into open rebellion against him. Until Morgase comes back out in the open and he see's her with his own eyes he may very well try and bring Rand down or at least try to kill him.

 

Following the end of the war, Lancelot and Guinevere see each other one last time before the widowed queen retires to a convent for the rest of her life.

 

Gawyn – Gawain

He’s often portrayed as the nephew of Arthur, through his sister Morgause. Gawain is killed in battle by the forces of Mordred.

Its been a while since I've read Morte de Arthur, but wasn't Gawain actually killed by Lancelot.  I remember Lancelot and Gwenevere having an affair which lead to civil war between Lancelot and Arthur.  During this conflict Gawain challenged Lancelot 3 or 4 times as was beaten severely each time that last resulting in his death. Since Gawyn is somewhat anti-Rand at the moment it would be cool if Lan ended up have to beat some since into him.  I could just see Gawyn being foolish enough to challenge Lan.

Cheers Leopoled.

 

I didn’t add this part of the myth because it is one version of the story, there are a variety of accounts within the Arthurian legends revolving around Gawain. The main reasons why I left it out being:

 

1. I don’t see Lan as a Lancelot-type. Their characters are different … however, they are the “best of the best”.

2. There doesn’t appear to be a love interest involving Lan that could split the Light apart…. Not involving Gawyn anyway.

 

I’ll add it to the “thoughts” section anyway, I'll also add the Lancelot-Lan connection.

 

Tam – Sir Ector

Ok, no link through the name.

 

However, Sir Ector was Arthur’s adopted father. Merlin spirited the boy away and handed him over to Sir Ector to be raised alongside his son, Sir Kay.

 

Sir Ector was never told of Arthur’s lineage. Sir Ector lived in an area called the “Wild Forest”.

 

Moiraine – Morgan le Fay

 

Another name for Morgan le Fay (among others) is Morgain.

 

She was a powerful enchantress, and became the nemesis of Arthur and Guinevere and is often stated to be the mother of Mordred. Before this occurs, she is represented as a figure with healing powers that she, occasionally, uses to aid Arthur.

 

She also turns up later on the Isle of Avalon and is one of the “Sisters” who heals Arthur after the battle of Caamlan.

 

Elayne – Elaine

Sister of Morgause.

 

Also another name for the Lady of the Lake. The Lady of the Lake fixes a broken Excalibur.

A second Elaine is Sir Galahad's mother, by Sir Launcelot.

Galad – Galahad

One of the three purest knights, he attained the Grail. He was the illegitimate son of an Knight of the Round Table (Lancelot). As a result, he was separated from his father at a young age. He was portrayed as being difficult to relate to due to his spartan, austere lifestyle and code of ethics.

 

- That’s got to be Galad.

 

Thom Mehrillin – Merlin

On Arthurian legends you forgot to mention Merlin the Magician and Thom Merlin the gleeman ( in one of the early books Thom while talking about remembered stories from past ages says that facts become jumbled so that in the future he could be seen as a hero who "breaths fire", etc.).

Thanks to Cuba for the above.

*Shakes his head at his own forgetfulness*

 

Scholars have stated that the most common Merlin myths are based on a travelling troubador called Myrddin Wyllt. He was some form of court bard, or entertainer, before the death of the lord he served.

 

Myrddin "died" three times. Firstly, he was beaten to death, later cast into a river, or the sea, and finally, was impaled.

 

Gareth - Gareth

A knight of the Round Table, usually portrayed as kind and unassuming.

 

Tenuous, I know.

 

Moridin – Mordred / Mordredus

Arthur’s nemesis, surprisingly few details about his life, he was often portrayed as the son of Morgase.

 

It is usually Mordred himself who fatally (?) wounds Arthur.

 

Damodred/Demandred – Mordred

Mordred? Mordred was Arthur's bastard son by his aunt Morgawse, and his slayer.

I immediately linked Moridin to Mordred, but, I guess it works either way.

 

The Lady of the Lake

The spirit-like figure that repairs Excalibur and, possibly, takes Arthur to Avalon.

 

Also known as Elaine and Nyneve and other names.

 

- Elaine is learning about all the various angreal types, and will be involved in the boat scene with Min and Avi.

 

Green Man: Green Knight or Green Man

Both in the Arthurian version, where Sir Gawain encounters the Green Man, and the much earlier Irish myths where Cuchulain encounters a nameless entity that by the description is obviously the Green Man, the story follows the same pattern: hero makes deal with Green Man to show how brave he is, hero cuts Green Man's head off, Green Man reappears three nights later to finish the deal by cutting hero's head off, hero goes honourably to his destiny, Green Man stays his hand at the last conceivable instant and compliments hero on bravery. [Emmet O'Brien]

Personally, I see this as a bit of a stretch.

The ent/treeman/treant/green man myth is a common one, found through many European cultures, and possibly further afield. I don’t see how the Green Man of Arthurian legend is linked to the Green Man / Green Knight of Arthur.

Surely it’s linked to the tree-man legends.

Elyas, Aram, Demandred, Bors: All the same as or similar to names of Arthurian knights.

 

Lan - Lancelot

There is a clear similarity between the names.

Here's an abridged version of some info. provided by Leopoled Boothe:

Gawain was actually killed by Lancelot. 

Lancelot and Gwenevere had an affair which lead to civil war between Lancelot and Arthur. 

During this conflict Gawain challenged Lancelot 3 or 4 times as was beaten severely each time that last resulting in his death.

Cheers Leopoled.

 

Lancelot is famous for the affair he had with Arthur's wife, Guinevere. This affair resulted in a civil war, and as pointed out by Leopoled, the death of Gawain in one version of the tales.

 

Lancelot is also heavily involved in finding the Holy Grail (which is linked by some DM members to angreal via the Holy Grail = Sang Real = Blood of Jesus route.) Lancelot fails to find the grail to his sin committed with Guinevere.

 

Lancelot is also commonly noted to be the father of Galahad.

 

Personally, I don't see more than a superficial link between Lan and Lancelot.

 

They are seen as the best of the best, (warders and knights respectively), so that's a tenuous link.

 

One could suggest that Lan's relationship with Nynaeve (while Moiraine is actually live and kicking) could be a link to Lancelot's adultery. Personally I don't see it, the killer blow (for me) is that Moiriane knew, and kinda approved, of Lan and Nynaeve by the time she went through the door.

 

Maybe, Lan is based on Lancelot maybe. Certainly, the name could well have been inspired. But I think his character is a stretch.

 

Amyrlin: Merlin/Myrddin

Arthur's chief advisor/magician, etc.

 

Places

Camelyn - Camlaan – Camelot

There’s a clear similarity between the names of these three. I can’t recall how the glossaries indicate Camelyn is to be pronounced, but, as a Brit, there’s not too much of difference in the pronunciation of “Camlaan” and “Camelyn” in my opinion.

 

Camlaan is the scene of the climax of the Arthurian legend. Mordreds forces, often Mordred himself, fatally (?) wound Arthur during the battle.

 

Camelot was the city Arthur founded, it became his capital and seat of power.

 

Tar Valon – Avalon

Avalon is the island to which Arthur is taken by the three women on a boat after the battle of Camlaan. There, he is healed and supposedly rests until his return. The island is inhabited by nine sisters.

 

- There’s a clear link to Mins prophecy re. the boat and the women, as would being healed by “sisters”.

 

Excalibur was also supposed to have been forged in Avalon.

 

- Callandor was made by Aes Sedai.

 

Others

Excalibur

The sword in the stone, maybe. There are accounts that the sword and the stone are in fact related to Galahad, however, many versions of the tale equate Excalibur to the sword in the stone. Excalibur had been placed in the stone to be removed by one who was worthy of the kingship of the island and was seen a symbol of that kingship. The sword was supposed to have been forged in Avalon.

One source of the name “Excalibur” is thought to be from ancient Gaelic (Welsh and Irish) mythology. Two famous swords are often mentioned in this respect, Caledfwlch and Caladbolg.

 

The sword is broken at one point and repaired by the Lady of the Lake.

 

Lady of the Lake a.k.a Elaine. – Elayne fixing Callandor?

The Fisher King: a king in the legend of Perceval who had an unhealable wound corresponding to the woes of his land. cf Rand's side wound which is not Healable, the ACOS Header Prophecy, and the "Fisher" figure in Moridin's favorite game.

Again, not truly Aurthurian, but a Grail Romance.

Sa’angreal

Sa'angreal: San Greal (Holy Grail). An alternate spelling, Sang Real, translates to "holy or royal blood"

This is quite a common link. It becomes relevant when the Romance traditions are added in.

The Return of Arthur

The myth of Arthur includes his miraculous return to the world.

 

Arthur was not killed at Camlann, but was transported by three women on a small barge to Avalon where he was healed.

 

When Arthur returns, he will come from Avalon.

 

Arthur’s return is normally associated with the return of the land to its rightful inhabitants and the expulsion of invaders.

 

- The die and live again prophecy would fit in here.

 

************************

 

So that’s my effort at a little light amusement.

 

Obviously, not all of the points above directly fit into WoT, and some of them have been adapted, but there are parallels, as we know.

 

I was interested to see that Gawain’s mother was killed and the brothers (not necessarily including Gawain) believed someone else had killed her.

 

Also, the implication that Galahad was one of the only knights to find the grail was interesting.

 

So......

 

My new thoughts (and yes, I know they aren’t likely to happen as I write them out):

 

1. The site of the climatic battle between Moridin and Rand will be at Camelyn. Moridin will “kill” Rand.

 

2. Rand will recover in Tar Valon.

 

3. Galad will find something important something to do with an angreal of some sort.

 

4. Gawyn will die at the hands of Moridin, or at least take a good beating.

 

5.      OR ....

Since Gawyn is somewhat anti-Rand at the moment it would be cool if Lan ended up have to beat some sense into him.  I could just see Gawyn being foolish enough to challenge Lan.

This is in reference to Lan being linked to Lancelot.

 

Cheers Leopoled.

 

6. Callandor will break and will be fixed by Elayne. Alternatively, and probably more likely, Elayne will remove the buffer flaw from Callandor.

 

Judas - Mat. Both among the closest followers. Judas turned to dark side due to greed, Mat almost due to the dagger and greed. Both hanged. Both receiving silver as payment.

 

Peter - Perrin. Both among the earliest and most trusted and dependable of followers. Peter was a major (spiritual) leader in Jesus' homeland after the crucification, as Perrin is now and likely will be after TG.

While the similarities between Mat and Judas are clear, I’d argue that it would appear to be Perrin who’s more likely to betray Rand.

 

We’ve seen his “Faile is the be-all-and-end-all” routine. Whereas Mat appears more reliable.

Three women finding the empty tomb - Aviendha, Elayne, and Min.

I’d say that that’s one of the clearest links to Arthurian legend, rather than Jesus’ story.

 

After all, the prophecy of the 3 on a boat is a clear, clear take off of Arthur’s body being taken away.

Mary Magdalene - Nynaeve. Mary Magdalene was likely the most prominent female follower of Jesus and the first to see him after the resurrection. Nynaeve is certainly prominent as having together with Rand cleansed the taint and maybe her healing will be important for resurrecting Rand.

What about the fact that Magdalene was a woman of “ill repute”?

 

Nynaeve was the exact opposite. As Wisdom she was held in high regard.

Mary - Moiraine. If anyone is Rand's (spiritual) mother it is Moiraine who guided him while still Rand still was weak and innocent.

 

Joseph - Lan. See above.

Personally, I don’t see any link between the four.

 

I think the danger of trying to “fit” WoT into a biblical context is that you stretch too far.

[The Doctor]

According to True Blood, and the DaVinci Code it's only an urban legend that Mary Magdelene was a hooker. Admittedly tenuous sources, but I'm not much of a bible thumper.

[dholm]

Listing The Da Vinci Code as a source is... not wise.

[Dark Justice]

Id even go as far as calling it silly..  ;D

[dholm]

It's also a bad example, as in that particular case, The Da Vinci Code is actually correct -- Mary Magdalene wasn't a prostitute. But there are far, far better sources. Especially since The Da Vinci Code falsely claims the Church named her a prostitute.

[Spirit1025]

Indeed, the Bible does not ever say Mary Magdalene was a prostitute. All it says is that seven (I think this is the correct number) demons came out of her. I think the Catholics came up with the idea of her being a prostitute. I'm not sure why.

 

But your idea with which women are who is a bit shaky. You speak of the three women finding the tomb as Elayne, Aviendha, and Min, but then you say that Nynaeve would be Mary Magdalene--who was one of the three women at the empty tomb. You also say that Moiraine would be Mary (as in Yeshua's mother), but again, she was one of those three women. So you don't have a perfect correlation in the story.

 

And Lan is Joseph? (I assume you mean Joseph, as in the one married to Mary, not Joseph of Arimathea?) Why wouldn't that be Tam, who raised Rand even though Rand was not his own?

 

There are quite a few Christian references in the books, I agree. Robert Jordan himself was, I believe, some sort of Christian. (I don't know which denomination.) But he also references many other religions and mythologies, as already stated. So it's not really such an obvious allegory. Interestingly, the concept of the wheel of time and ages, and everything being cyclical fits in with Jewish theology. It is believed among Jews that after Messiah returns and we are judged, we will live in New Jerusalem (which will be somewhat like the Age of Legends, I think) and then be returned to our original sinless state in the Garden of Eden. Which, one could theorize, would set everything up for another cycle of Fall, years of decline into sin, coming of the Messiah, more years of further decline while giving those who will time to come to the Messiah, second coming of the Messiah to judge the world, and then a several-stage restoration to the beginning. (Note that as far as I am aware, Jews don't usually believe that this thing happens over and over and over...I'm just throwing out a crazy thought.Many also don't believe in two comings of the Messiah although this is clearly lined out in the Tanakh.) It's, again, not a perfect match with the Wheel of Time, but it has similarities.

[Luckers]

I have real problems with idea of comparing Rand and Jesus. They are diametrically opposed to each other--one being a warrior whose only interest is in saving the world at large, even if it costs thousands of lives, the other was a spiritual leader whose 'saving' of the world occured purely in a metaphorical sense.

 

As for the supposed similarities... do you realise how many messianic figures their are in the history of the world. Ones who 'died' to save the world. Ones that then came back to life. Mayrtyrdom sings to the morbid side of human romantacism, and we tend to immortalise those that do it as some form of post hoc reward. And off the top of my head I can think of at least three times that a crown of thorns was worn by people in the the Book of the Yellow Emperor, and another in bhagavad gita. The beggar king, the hero of the disenfranchised masses displaying his humble poorness whilst being addulated for it by the sign of royalty... its as commen a story in history as elves and sorcerers are in fantasy.