Language

[Guest Winespring Brother]

Jonn says "I'm saying that the idea of a global language replacing all other languages is impossible. To the degree that all other languages are forgotten, a single language becoming so dominant...Never happened, hasn't happened even now with the popular languages that exist and it won't happen even if humanity does achieve near utopia"

 

 

 

Jonn mate, I really don't think that this is the case. Differences in languages arise from geograpical seperateness and cultural differences, which is why even within England an old person from the countryside speaks very differently to a London youth. As interaction between groups increases, and pysical geography becomes less of a hindrance to communication, there is convergence between the languages of different people. They use similar words because they interact with similar concepts and objects. This is why financial jargon is the same in London as it is in New York, even though residents of those cities may use different words for other things. Words only have a use so long as the concept they describe has relevance to society.

 

Now imagine what we have been told of the AoL. When people can cross the globe in a single step, geographical seperation is off very little significance as a barrier to comunication. Governance is centralised, and groups like the Aes Sedai span the globe. There would be no hindrances or differences between technologies in different locations. What I am getting at is that life would be very very similar in what ever part of the globe you lived in, and thus the things that people used, understood and encountered would be almost identical. Consequently, the words people use are equally applicable across all areas, and there is absolutely no need for distinct languages. Langauge is really a tool of necessity, brutally efficient at adapting and getting rid of what is no longer needed. Look at the way the people in the AoL did not understand the concept of war. I see no problem whatsoever (and I am another of these student that studied stinking linguistics at Uni) with a near homogenous language used across all parts of the world when society is as advanced and converged as it is in the AoL.

 

My whole problem with the languages used in WoT is not with the old tongue at all, but with the common one. Like I said, languages change very easily to suit the needs of the people that speak them. You can see by the way that people in Illian don't beleive in snow or trollocs that societies in Randland do not have that much interaction with each other. Most people in the Two Rivers have never left it. The Aiel stayed in the Waste for nearly 3000 years without leaving. The armies of Luther Pendreag left Randland for a thousand years and lived in a vastly different continent. On this time, languages should have changed a great deal, as the lives of the people are greatly different. Yet all the nations have evolved their languages, by dropping usage of the old tongue. They have changed a lot. But there is no way that they would have all changed into the same thing, when the cultures in which they live are so distinct. That the common tongue used by the Aiel could be the same as that used by the Seanchan is so almost as big a fantasy as channeling.

 

Having said that, it is probably just a plot device :roll:

[Jonn]

A society that grew out of a singular post apocalyptic social setting would have one singular global language base. The evidence suggests some form of apocalyptic battle happen (that destroyed our cities before the Age of Legends) and in a society with channelers the spread of people would have taken place on a global scale at an incredible rate. So yes, in such a situation the likliehood of the development of one singular language base is incredibly likely.

 

So, that is where I get my terminology. I don't need a stinking degree in languages to figure out what's instinctually correct

 

You mistake me. I don't need a degree in languages to speak on the subject because the parameters I am working with have to do with the terminology within the books.

 

When RJ writes about people having any difficulty with understanding one another's speaking, he uses the terms I was using, which are "accent", and "accents". He doesn't use the term DIALECT.

 

Dialect is used to reference too many kinds of variation. True, some dialects of language are so familiar and similar to each other, there is almost no difference, but then again, French and Portugese are considered dialects in relation as well. Are you saying that speakers of these languages have no trouble at all in speaking to each other? It's the wrong term to apply. RJ is talking about intonation, pronounciation and geographical differences that affect a SINGLE LANGUAGE.

 

Never does he say that Bayle is speaking an educated "dialect" of Illianer Common whereas Juilin speaks in a rough "dialect" of Tairen Common. There is none of that distinction. They're just speaking common tongue with Tairen and Illianer accents. That's how it's described. You could technically call it dialect if you want to go with the dictionary definition, but the implication in using that term is too suggestive that they are speaking entirely different distinct languages.

 

Here in the United States, we all speak the same language, but we can recognize accents. We don't usually use the term dialect, unless we are talking about a language foreign to ours. In other words, anything outside of English. Using the word dialect, in this case, implies stronger differences than slight regional variation. For example the difference between a Texan's English and a Australian's English is hardly comparable to the differences between Italian and French. Both sets are considered dialects in relation to each other, but those relationships are vastly different. To use the word dialect in reference to the language difference presented in the Wheel of Time is pretty convoluted and it just gets murkier the more you try to apply it.

 

 

 

No offence, but i'd say you do. Look up linguistics 101... nothing of what you are saying is even remotely 'instinctually correct'.

 

You do know that to say you mean no offence and then to offer up an offensive statement right after that, is kind of offensive. Anyhow...

 

It just so happens I do have figured an explanation as to how they could all be speaking the same language. The only problem is that there is a sense of ingnorance of any other language existing in the world we are seeing.

 

The explanation is that the world in the books is much MUCH bigger than we have been able to see.

 

Say there was a Breaking in our reality...If the Breaking had mashed all of the predominantly English speaking countries together somehow, it would be comparable to the continent we are so familiar with now in the books. Smash Canada and the United States together...it's plausible that the dominant language would be English. So long as South America, Africa and The other continents are kept separate from the American English portion...All the minority languages die out and all you have left is English spoken in regional accents.

 

So essentially you don't have a single world language. You have a dominant language used in a smaller portion of the globe.

 

We are under the assumption here that "Randland" (still hate the term) constitutes the largest portion of the world. This must not be true. you have the Seanchan Continent, the Sharan lands, the Land of Madmen Continental mass.

 

I think this is the answer.

 

The Old Tongue was globally accepted "educated" language as institutionalized by the Aes Sedai centered society. There were still other languages in use throughout the regions, but the language that was standardized that everyone who was educated could use was Old Tongue.

 

"Randland"- This is where all the action is. This is where the Bore was opened, this is where Dragonmount popped up and all just before the Breaking. This is a single continent that speaks their local language which we will call Common. Other continents are familiar with it to a degree but they have their own languages. The only unifying language is Old Tongue, which is generally used by the educated. Randland, though is like the United States and Canada. The standardized language for the United States and Canada is Common (English). The Breaking happens and all of Canada and United States are smashed together to form Randland and later the Compact of Ten Nations and so on. They all spoke common before the Breaking. the educated spoke Old Tongue and common. After the breaking, the most used language becomes common, because all of the societal structures are destroyed. Only the surviving nobler classes like female Aes Sedai and other races like the Ogier can maintain any other organized languages. All of the "foreigners" who came from other regions than *Canada and *the US were absorbed into the other groups which predominantly spoke Common.

 

Outside of teh Randland/US/Canadian continent there are other languages, but not in *sigh* Randland.

 

When Hawkwing's son went to conquer Seanchan, that continent had remnants of Old Tongue as well, so translation could come about between speakers of Common and the native Seanchan languages, which were probably many.

 

There. How's that for an explanation?

[Musenge]

You know what's funny?

 

The forsaken can all speak the new tongue perfectly.

 

Oh for Ishmael I understand but the others were asleep

[Luckers]

This has been explained. The new tongue is a els complex languag, and a derivation of the Old Tongue. It would be like a well educated citizen of Rome transplanted into modern day Italy or France... though Itallian and French are both more complex then Latin.

[Minnea]

Well, I'm not going to throw myself into this debate ... but as I'm from Sweden...

 

While Norwegian, Danish and Swedish are defined as separate languages, they are so alike that communication between them is unproblematic.

 

*lol*

Swedish is my language. The "usual" form of Norwegian I can understand quite well, the variasion called "Bokmål" is almost impossible.

 

Danish is another story. It's far more easy for me to understand English than Danish, as I have never studied it. Sure, I'm able to figure out text in Danish, but give me the spoken language and I'm lost...

[Guest Majsju]

Danish is another story. It's far more easy for me to understand English than Danish, as I have never studied it. Sure, I'm able to figure out text in Danish, but give me the spoken language and I'm lost...

 

That's because you live in the wild north, I find Danish far easier to understand than norwegian. But then, that might be because I go to Denmark at least 10 times every year, and watch Danish telly, while I can't even remember last time I spoke to a norwegian person...

[Graendals favourite]

I can understand the finnish version, and the swedish stockholm version with effort, but while norwegian I recognise for sounding like swedish except that I understand nothing of it, to me the skåne swedish is already unintelligible and might as well be danish for how it's spoken. Swedish is one language that can be twisted around in knots, in different areas differently of course. Danish to me sounds not much different from dutch. Not that I hear any of these very often.

[Guest Majsju]

Well, the similarity between Dutch and Danish is because Dutch is a very odd mix between AScandinavian, German and English, and I think they've thrown in some Flemish and French just to make sure it's impossible to learn. I tried a few years ago, but it's extremely difficult.

 

And if you think it's hard to understand us here in Skåne, try paying a visit to Dalarna. It's such a weird dialect that it's closer to a language of it's own. Must be all that snow that makes people up north crazy :D

[Graendals favourite]

Hmm, on the same latitudes here along the west coast I understand they speak some very weird dialects too, in particular near Närpiö/Närpes. But this seems to only afflict those who speak swedish-- finnish is quite clear everywhere, discountings some old slangs. This clearly means, that either speaking swedish makes one crazy in the north, or that all finnish speakers are crazy too, and can thus understand each other :). (Though truth to tell, we can always resort to more formal or bookish language.)

[Guest Majsju]

Well, in my experience it's such a rare occasion that anyone from up north actually say anything worth listening to, so I don't see any need to understand them :lol:

 

But putting the mockery aside, for people with a bit of sense for languages, it's fairly easy to understand Swedish, Danish and norwegian if you're fluent in one of them, and at least somewhat familiar to hearing the others. I can even understand quite a lot of Icelandic, if they speak slow. But I'm not sure how relevant it is to compare with WOT. My main concern is the time. For us, it's been a tad less than 1000 years since the languages was divided, and because of our habit to conquer eachother, move around all over the place etc, there's always been a natural contact. Now, in the world of WOT, the great split between different people was 3000 years ago. The difference in language should be far greater than it is in the Scandinavian nations, but it's obviously not. With the extremely little contact between Aiel and the main continent, they should have developed into languages perhaps as different as Swedish and Dutch, not to mention Shara, which has been almost completely separated from the rest of the world since the Breaking, except the occasional traders.

 

But, as someone else pointed out earlier, this is fantasy, and it's simply not very practical having 10 different languages spoken.

[Graendals favourite]

Yea, 3000 years seems quite a long time. Of course there's the White Tower and printing press, which in effect imposed a common and unchanging written language for all of Randland, but that shouldn't stop people from starting to speak it differently, I think the same way as in finnish or arabic or perhaps chinese. The Aiel too read books from Randland, I can guess the chiefs and Wise Ones would have influence on how the people speak.

 

I'm not very good in languages, I find that two fluent languages may be my limit, despite learning swedish, german and french to some effect. Still, comparing finnish and estonian, I can guess if I see estonian written, but understanding by hearing is impossible. Of course these two went apart a little earlier perhaps, and of course there was the soviet time when nothing was heard from estonia, though that was only 50 years, but considering the proximity, I still wonder about Mayeners meeting Domani.

[Guest Majsju]

Written and spoken language can be very different from eachother. I mean, I can read and get at least a basic understanding of German and Dutch, but I'm far from comfortable speaking them, or even understand when someone speaks.

[Graendals favourite]

Yea, very. Isn't english pretty much written the same way around, save for different meanings or words or little stuff? Speaking varies though. And young compared to Randland common still. As an example, I'm reminded of a funny bit about euro-english, which is remarkably accurate on what one can hear in news with interviews of EU-people:

 

The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English will be

the official language of the European Union rather than German, which is the

other possibility. As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's Government

conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a

5-year phase-in planthat would become known as "Euro-English". In the first

year, "s" will replace the soft "c".

 

Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard "c"will be

dropped in favour of the "k". This should klear up konfusion, and keyboards kan

have one less letter. There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond

year when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced with the "f".

 

This will make words like fotograf 20% shorter. In the 3rd year, publik

akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more

komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkourage the removal of

double letters which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al

wil agre that the horibl mes of the silent "e" in the languag is disgrasful and

it should go away. By the 4th yer peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as

replasing "th" with "z" and "w" with "v". During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary "o"

kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou"and After ziz fifz yer, ve vil hav areil

sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find

it ezi tu understand ech oza. Ze drem of a united urop vil finali kum tru. If

zis mad you smil, pleas pas on to oza peopl.

 

If the spelling reflected the speaking, that would almost be a language of its own. :lol:

[RobertAlexWillis]

Quick someone bring up Esperanto.

[keravon3]

coincedence mabey