Aiel culture

[Durinax]

what Mangin did was morally right for the Aiel. He felt obligated to teach him a lesson, probably the reason the other guy died was he tried to pull a dagger or some such.

 

BTW anyone hwo says that the Aiel are barbaric are wrong imo, their culture is alot equaller, with no brutal successions or scheming (except among the shaido). The Aiel are a society of conscience. And if you argue that they are barbaric because they take each other slaves and are in a constant state of war (one way or another) its just a control system to further their fighting prowess. They are permanent slaves or servants.

 

also all governments lie their people to varying degrees. They are forced too in democratic countries because they wish the be reelected and allowing certain details to get out will decrease the chances. Also there is no such thing as a perfect world, or utopian society since humanity and society are fundamentally flawed, and until the human interactions are minimized and our bad qualities erased there is no way for a utopian society/perfect world

[Hybrid]

Would you disagree with "Nazi culture lied to the Germans"?

This is where it gets tricky.  You're now bringing up a specific political party, whereas the Aiel have a single unified culture that all Aiel follow, period.  All Germans were not Nazis.  And not all "Nazi culture" was necessarily bad.

 

The other problem is that there is a difference between stating "all people of this race/nationality/ethnicity/religion/etc. are bad" (if I understand what you are referring to) and "if someone does such and such, you can kill them."  One is a racial generalization, the other is a cause/effect punishment.  By that reasoning, the Aiel belief that all Cairhien are oathbreakers is very certainly a lie, and one of the things I don't like at all about the Aiel.  Fortunately, it seems like that view is disappearing now that the Aiel have actually been exposed to real, live Cairhienin.

[Braus]

ye, i think they more got prejudices against any wetlander nowadays until they proove themselves. After all, there is no desert in the wetlands so removing all the clothes of all the wetlanders they see and giving them a bottle of water doesnt do much good nowadays.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

This is where it gets tricky.  You're now bringing up a specific political party, whereas the Aiel have a single unified culture that all Aiel follow, period.  All Germans were not Nazis.  And not all "Nazi culture" was necessarily bad.

I probably should have said "Nazi culture lied to the Nazis".  Not all Aiel culture is bad, either.  The part where they kill people who don't conform is bad.  That applies to the Nazis and the Aiel - and for every other culture that does that.

 

Sure, my opinion is just "relative", and I can't prove wrong anyone who wants to disagree.  However, it is inconsistent to support Aiel culture but demonize, for example, Tairen culture.  It seems to me that RJ does just that.

[Braus]

Abit tough comparing "nazis" with Aiel(a culture that has been ongoing for 3000 years).

Anyway, the nazis was hardly a culture. In that case you can name all sorts of things cultures.

[Perrin 187]

Abit tough comparing "nazis" with Aiel(a culture that has been ongoing for 3000 years).

Anyway, the nazis was hardly a culture. In that case you can name all sorts of things cultures.

But if one were to believe in moral reletivism, the actions of the Nazi should not be judged or labled as evil, nor any acts, many would consider repulsive, because their is no such thing. Morality is only determine by man, and if some men like the Nazi think killing a couple million is okay then that is an acceptable reality. This is why I don't believe in it.

 

The aiel are extremely violent, due to the conditions they live in. Its understandable, but not right atleast what Mangin did. Why didn't they just reason with the man who had the tatoos? Why just kill him? Like I've said the aiel could have solved this alot better.

[Braus]

But everyone wasnt apart of the Nazis. Everyone didnt stand for it, or accept it. It was something completly new, and the jew/homo/gypsy hatred etc was as much of a tool in hitlers hand to make his dream come true as anything.

And even if they accepted it and became apart of one of the many violent military organizations, it didnt mean they believed in it. People doesnt need to believe in it, to abuse it for their own ends or just following it because its easier.

 

 

The Aiel on the other hand truelly all believe in it. Just look at the people who was taken by the bleakness when Rand told them that they once was called Jen'Aiel - you could say one step above the lost ones, the traveling people, but very closely related.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

Abit tough comparing "nazis" with Aiel(a culture that has been ongoing for 3000 years).
Anyway, the nazis was hardly a culture. In that case you can name all sorts of things cultures.

I was using "culture" to mean "social climate", not "civilization".  Think "hippie culture" or "military culture".

 

And even if they accepted it and became apart of one of the many violent military organizations, it didnt mean they believed in it. People doesnt need to believe in it, to abuse it for their own ends or just following it because its easier.

Does it really matter what they believed inside, if they acted as if they believed it?

 

I wonder if some Aiel don't really believe in ji'e'toh, but just follow it to fit in?

[Braus]

Well Jordan only gives a small comparable amount of information, so its possible to wonder whatever :) For all i know, there might flow chocolate rivers in Arafela, or the dark one actually being the creator in disguise.

 

I just dont like comparing Nazi with Aiel :P Because Aiel, for one, doesnt try to conquer and supress the wetlanders and make a new world order. While they have very tough prejudices against them, and will take means to anyone entering the waste uninvited(a message that should have gone through to the wetlanders by now), they dont exactly threaten them in anyway if they just stay away. Except the Shaido.

[Miltiades]

I don't wish to debate moral relativism, but I can't resist.

 

Just let me ask one question: Relative to what?  "Relative to other sets of morals" is the likely answer.  Well, can't we start to rule out some sets of morals?  For example, "All newborn children should die" is a possible belief.  Would you support the right of people to act on that belief?  Why or why not?

 

When it comes to taking the lives of others, moral relativism is tricky territory.  It's fine to say "in my culture those tattoos are taboo", but quite another thing to say "in my culture you die because of your tattoos".

 

I'm not saying that I believe Mangin was right in what he did.  By my set of values, he was wrong.  But what I disagree with is saying statements like:

I'm saying that Aiel culture lied to Mangin

Would you disagree with "Nazi culture lied to the Germans"?

 

Yes exactly. Cultural morals put arbitrary moral judgments upon things that are non-issues.

 

For example, one culture could say ''eating pigs is bad'' and another could say ''eating pigs is good'' and neither of these viewpoints is right or wrong because eating pigs is a moral non-issue. It isn't good or bad.

 

If one culture says ''the slaughter of the innocent is good'' and another says ''the slaughter of the innocent is bad'' these are not morally equivalent viewpoints. Killing innocent people doesnt become good no matter how many people agree on it.

[Mandragoran]

But if one were to believe in moral reletivism, the actions of the Nazi should not be judged or labled as evil, nor any acts, many would consider repulsive, because their is no such thing. Morality is only determine by man, and if some men like the Nazi think killing a couple million is okay then that is an acceptable reality. This is why I don't believe in it.

 

The aiel are extremely violent, due to the conditions they live in. Its understandable, but not right atleast what Mangin did. Why didn't they just reason with the man who had the tatoos? Why just kill him? Like I've said the aiel could have solved this alot better.

But everyone wasnt apart of the Nazis. Everyone didnt stand for it, or accept it. It was something completly new, and the jew/homo/gypsy hatred etc was as much of a tool in hitlers hand to make his dream come true as anything.

And even if they accepted it and became apart of one of the many violent military organizations, it didnt mean they believed in it. People doesnt need to believe in it, to abuse it for their own ends or just following it because its easier.

 

The Aiel on the other hand truelly all believe in it. Just look at the people who was taken by the bleakness when Rand told them that they once was called Jen'Aiel - you could say one step above the lost ones, the traveling people, but very closely related.

Agreed. Just want to add that moral relativism is based on morality nevertheless which depends on self-consistency. You can't kill at whim and still uphold the sanctity of your own life. The nazis weren't being moral even by their own standards, Hitler being part-Jewish himself was the least part.

 

The Aiel are rather clear on not imposing their code on those who do not follow it. Emulating an Aiel chief with a mockery of those tattoos might have blurred the lines though, baring the offender to Aiel judgment.