Rand : Insane or something else?

[a pale tanned lover]

If you know of any quotes where Perrin almost losses his self I would be interested, and if you are going to quote from the wolf dream, where Perrin appears as a wolf in the flesh, I think he understood he was Perrin the whole time and never lost control on himself just his temper and disposition towards self preservation.

 

I understand what your saying on this comment and how you've approached it, it has given me food for thought, but like I said earlier man and wolf are different. You can lose yourself in dreams in Randland so too suggest that this is not applicable would be wrong, especially since we know that is where the wolf side is so strong

 

Countless times we see Rand force LTT from his mind.

Countless times we see Perrin push wolves from his mind.

 

Rand could be overcome by LTT whilst awake.

Perrin could be overcome by Wolf whilst asleep.

 

If LTT is real then he is the same as the wolves. Perrin and Rand both talk to voices in their head, the same voices that if they were not there then both would be dead, thereby they are both mad are both sane, because both have to fight to remain the person they are.

 

 

[Moghedian]

I understand what you're saying 

 

Otherwise, nice argument!

[Cursedmage]

 

You can lose yourself in dreams in Randland so too suggest that this is not applicable would be wrong, especially since we know that is where the wolf side is so strong

 

Rand never lost himself completely, he was still fully aware of what was going on, and had to have a conversation with LTT to calm himself down.

 

Countless times we see Rand force LTT from his mind.

Countless times we see Perrin push wolves from his mind.

 

The wolves are a form of telepathy and not trying to take over his mind.

 

Rand could be overcome by LTT whilst awake.

Perrin could be overcome by Wolf whilst asleep.

 

Yes, but Rand knows he is still Rand while Perrin would make a complete transformation to Wolf, or so RJ leads us to believe, because Perrin never dose lose control of his body unlike Rand.

 

If LTT is real then he is the same as the wolves.

 

Not at all.

 

Perrin and Rand both talk to voices in their head, the same voices that if they were not there then both would be dead, thereby they are both mad are both sane, because both have to fight to remain the person they are.

 

The voices inside Perrin's head are real living wolves, and the voice inside Rands head is a dead mans voice.  Once again Perrin is using telepathy and Rand is just talking to somebody living in his brain.  Quite different indeed.

[a pale tanned lover]

The voices inside Perrin's head are real living wolves, and the voice inside Rands head is a dead mans voice.  Once again Perrin is using telepathy and Rand is just talking to somebody living in his brain.  Quite different indeed.

 

So could you explain hopper talking to perrin in his dreams? the same place they can die?

 

The wolves are a form of telepathy and not trying to take over his mind.

So why is Perrin so scared to talk to them?

 

Rand never lost himself completely, he was still fully aware of what was going on, and had to have a conversation with LTT to calm himself down.

 

As opposed to LTT telling him to kill every male that can channel?

 

The voices inside Perrin's head are real living wolves, and the voice inside Rands head is a dead mans voice.  Once again Perrin is using telepathy and Rand is just talking to somebody living in his brain.  Quite different indeed.

 

Again I will say Hopper, thats where a wolf loses it soul,in wolf dream, quite different to humans in Randland.

 

Your trying to compare the two as exact, thats where your points fall short. Consider this, I've said it a couple of times, why has perrin being talking to a dead wolf in his dreams? the same place that if you die you die in the real world. Real world=dead person, Dream world=dead wolf. one and the same.

 

 

[Cursedmage]

I'm trying to say that Rand is insane and Perrin is not, because Rand is talking to a voice in his head while Perrin is talking to real wolves.  I'm aware that the voice in Rand's head could really be LTT, but in my earlier post I stated if it was it still made him insane according to the term insanity itself.  Being that insanity is a disorder that impairs judgment or action.  I don't believe Perrin's judgment has ever been impaired; he just was worried one day he would lose his human side and become all wolf.  However insanity is very abstract and very well could be relative. 

 

Talking to Hopper is fine, because the world of dreams is another reality that two people can agree exists, unlike the reality of the mind where only one physical person can verify the nature of that reality.  We know that animals go to the world of dreams when they perish, and because of that it is not insane to talk to a dead wolf.  In order to agree that Rand is insane we would have to agree to the fact that Rand has a disorder and not a natural phenomenon, and this disorder effects, adversely, his actions.  I believe it dose, and I don't believe Perrin has a mental problem just a mean wife.

 

I understand that you are trying to say that if Rand is insane then Perrin has to be also, because both talk to voices inside their heads and both might lose control of there humanity threw special abilities, and sense Perrin is not insane Rand also can't be.

 

However we can explain Perrins situation, and any aes sedia worth her salt can also explain Perrin's situation, but who can explain Rands?

 

The most likely candidate would be somebody who has experience with men going mad, and that would mean Semirhage and Cad, in my opinion, would be the best.  Both which said one of the signs of insanity was hearing voices inside the mind.  Sem said it in KoD and Cad said it in aCoS.

 

Now you might say something like, "well how did Rand know all those weaves", or "how did Rand know Semirahage's face and if he knew that he can't be insane because it is lews."

 

Well, Matt has memories, and he had memories of the old tongue before the stone doorway, while language takes memorization and memorization is the verb of memory it basically the same thing.  Then that could very well make it where Rands unique abilities are the memories of the past imposed by the pattern, and the LTT is just Rands tainted brain playing tricks on him.  He has after all been using the power, tainted, for a few years.

[a pale tanned lover]

I'm trying to say that Rand is insane and Perrin is not, because Rand is talking to a voice in his head while Perrin is talking to real wolves.  I'm aware that the voice in Rand's head could really be LTT, but in my earlier post I stated if it was it still made him insane according to the term insanity itself.  Being that insanity is a disorder that impairs judgment or action.  I don't believe Perrin's judgment has ever been impaired; he just was worried one day he would lose his human side and become all wolf.  However insanity is very abstract and very well could be relative. 

 

Talking to Hopper is fine, because the world of dreams is another reality that two people can agree exists, unlike the reality of the mind where only one physical person can verify the nature of that reality.  We know that animals go to the world of dreams when they perish, and because of that it is not insane to talk to a dead wolf.  In order to agree that Rand is insane we would have to agree to the fact that Rand has a disorder and not a natural phenomenon, and this disorder effects, adversely, his actions.  I believe it dose, and I don't believe Perrin has a mental problem just a mean wife.

 

I understand that you are trying to say that if Rand is insane then Perrin has to be also, because both talk to voices inside their heads and both might lose control of there humanity threw special abilities, and sense Perrin is not insane Rand also can't be.

 

However we can explain Perrins situation, and any aes sedia worth her salt can also explain Perrin's situation, but who can explain Rands?

 

The most likely candidate would be somebody who has experience with men going mad, and that would mean Semirhage and Cad, in my opinion, would be the best.  Both which said one of the signs of insanity was hearing voices inside the mind.  Sem said it in KoD and Cad said it in aCoS.

 

Now you might say something like, "well how did Rand know all those weaves", or "how did Rand know Semirahage's face and if he knew that he can't be insane because it is lews."

 

Well, Matt has memories, and he had memories of the old tongue before the stone doorway, while language takes memorization and memorization is the verb of memory it basically the same thing.  Then that could very well make it where Rands unique abilities are the memories of the past imposed by the pattern, and the LTT is just Rands tainted brain playing tricks on him.  He has after all been using the power, tainted, for a few years.

 

Thats a lot of different points in there, so I will keep this simple, your wrong, your putting a lot of theories into one post and blending them together to suit. repost your thoughts clearly so we can talk about them please

[Mr. Dragon]

About the dead wolves talking in the world of dreams, what you have to consider that dead humans tied to the wheel (ie. heroes of the horn) can also talk to sleeping people so it is possible that dead wolves operate on a similar system (without the horn). While on the subject of wolves, Perrin is cautious about talking to the wolves because he is wary of losing his humanity, not going insane.

[a pale tanned lover]

About the dead wolves talking in the world of dreams, what you have to consider that dead humans tied to the wheel (ie. heroes of the horn) can also talk to sleeping people so it is possible that dead wolves operate on a similar system (without the horn). While on the subject of wolves, Perrin is cautious about talking to the wolves because he is wary of losing his humanity, not going insane.

 

Yes but it seems accepted that all wolves go here by the wolves, so completely different. So your saying that someone believing they are an animal is sane then. Because that is what he would become.

[Toy and Minion]

So, let's just say they're all insane and be done with it.

[a pale tanned lover]

So, let's just say they're all insane and be done with it.

 

So if they are all insane that means they are all sane? at last a voice of reason....

[Mr. Dragon]

No, i'm not saying that thinking your a wolf is sane, only that Perrin doesn't see himself going insane in the same way that Rand is going insane. Perrin is in danger of letting the beastial side of him take complete control whilst Rand is in danger of letting an independent consciousness take control and killing everybody.

 

So your saying that someone believing they are an animal is sane then. Because that is what he would become.

[a pale tanned lover]

No, i'm not saying that thinking your a wolf is sane, only that Perrin doesn't see himself going insane in the same way that Rand is going insane. Perrin is in danger of letting the beastial side of him take complete control whilst Rand is in danger of letting an independent consciousness take control and killing everybody.

 

So your saying that someone believing they are an animal is sane then. Because that is what he would become.

 

so because Rand/LTT has more access to power to kill more people does that make him more mad? like comparing......a mad dragon to say......a mad wolf.

 

your logic is faulty at best, Perrin has someone who talks to wolves, how many people can the dragon reborn compare with talking to the dragon, the fact he can't is in it self a point. Why it Taim or Logain not mad? they have been affected longer

[Cursedmage]

 

So could you explain hopper talking to perrin in his dreams? the same place they can die?

 

Why would I need to explain that?  What does that have to do with insanity?  Are you trying to say because dead wolves can talk in dreams then LLT can certainly talk inside his head.  That has no merit anywhere.

 

So why is Perrin so scared to talk to them?

 

Once again that is not relevant to the topic.

 

 

As opposed to LTT telling him to kill every male that can channel?

Everyone has inner monologue, schizophrenia is where inner monologue is mistaken for an actual sentient voice.

 

 

Again I will say Hopper, thats where a wolf loses it soul,in wolf dream, quite different to humans in Randland.

 

Just because dead wolves can communicate in another reality dose not mean humans can in the physical world of the wheel of time, nowhere dose RJ suggest that they can, and we are left to wonder.

 

Your trying to compare the two as exact, thats where your points fall short. Consider this, I've said it a couple of times, why has perrin being talking to a dead wolf in his dreams? the same place that if you die you die in the real world. Real world=dead person, Dream world=dead wolf. one and the same.

 

No I'm saying there completely different, that the wolves inside Perrins head is not like LTT inside Rands.  Just because Perrin talks to a dead wolf in his dream dose not mean Rand is actually talking to a real person inside his own mind.  Nowhere in the books is this supported.

 

Thats a lot of different points in there, so I will keep this simple, your wrong, your putting a lot of theories into one post and blending them together to suit. repost your thoughts clearly so we can talk about them please

 

My thoughts are posted clearly, and yes there where a few new points I raised in that last post, was it overload for you?  No I"m not wrong there is no wrong or right because nobody really knows if Rand is insane or not, and yes these are theories, including yours sir.

 

About the dead wolves talking in the world of dreams, what you have to consider that dead humans tied to the wheel (ie. heroes of the horn) can also talk to sleeping people so it is possible that dead wolves operate on a similar system (without the horn). While on the subject of wolves, Perrin is cautious about talking to the wolves because he is wary of losing his humanity, not going insane.

 

I agree

 

 

 

 

So, let's just say they're all insane and be done with it.

 

That would end the thread but not be accurate, because we know insanity to be true through the taint on the male half of the one power. 

 

 

 

So, let's just say they're all insane and be done with it.

 

So if they are all insane that means they are all sane? at last a voice of reason....

 

If that is your "reason", Pale, no wonder I"m still typing.

 

No, i'm not saying that thinking your a wolf is sane, only that Perrin doesn't see himself going insane in the same way that Rand is going insane. Perrin is in danger of letting the beastial side of him take complete control whilst Rand is in danger of letting an independent consciousness take control and killing everybody.

 

 

 

So your saying that someone believing they are an animal is sane then. Because that is what he would become.

 

Yes, and if Perrin ever does lose control he won't know it, he will be a wolf.  Not in the flesh of course, but in his mind he will be, and could you argue that he wouldn't be physically.  He dose have a wolves vision, smell, hearing, and telepathic communication.  Would he be human, is he human now?  Humans can not see, sniff, listen, and talk telepathic like wolves in the WoT can.  So would he be insane, or something of a different beast. 

 

 

 

in·san·i·ty

 

1: a deranged state of the mind usually occurring as a specific disorder (as schizophrenia)

Perrin being a wolf in mind would not be a disorder, seems to me that humans that can talk to wolves often can become wolves themselves.

 

de·range

 

1 : to disturb the operation or functions of

Perrin fits in rather well with the wolves, so what operation would be disturbed by him losing the last strings of humanity.  Sure he would not be able to go to market, but would he want to, or would he hunt in the wilderness with the pack?

 

Rand, on the other hand, would know he had lost control as he watched LTT destroy everybody and anything around him.  Going back to the definition of insanity I would think that would be a specific condition that is deranged. Or also know as schizophrenia.  Which by definition is insane.

 

 

 

[Toy and Minion]

So, let's just say they're all insane and be done with it.

 

That would end the thread but not be accurate, because we know insanity to be true through the taint on the male half of the one power.

 

I see.  You're being serious in this discussion.

[Cursedmage]

So, let's just say they're all insane and be done with it.

 

That would end the thread but not be accurate, because we know insanity to be true through the taint on the male half of the one power.

 

I see.  You're being serious in this discussion.

 

I agree the mood needs to lighten up a bit.  ;D

[a pale tanned lover]

It's spelt does not dose

 

If someone loses their mind, like turns into a wolf in their head or a dead person then they are actually adopting a new persona that over-rides their normal one. same

Why would I need to explain that?  What does that have to do with insanity?  Are you trying to say because dead wolves can talk in dreams then LLT can certainly talk inside his head.  That has no merit anywhere.

You should read what you said there. That has no merit.

Once again that is not relevant to the topic.

Its a valid point

Everyone has inner monologue, schizophrenia is where inner monologue is mistaken for an actual sentient voice.

Is that awake or not, depends on the circumstances and the schizophrenia(by the way classing it as something you can associate with in the here and now to devalue it don't explain how you can class talking to wolves as normal, you might want to sort that out first)

Just because dead wolves can communicate in another reality dose not mean humans can in the physical world of the wheel of time, nowhere dose RJ suggest that they can, and we are left to wonder.

its in the book, both of them

My thoughts are posted clearly, and yes there where a few new points I raised in that last post, was it overload for you?  No I"m not wrong there is no wrong or right because nobody really knows if Rand is insane or not, and yes these are theories, including yours sir.

do you mean " my thoughts were posted clearly". Rand is not insane, LTT and wolves are.

Yes, and if Perrin ever does lose control he won't know it, he will be a wolf.  Not in the flesh of course, but in his mind he will be, and could you argue that he wouldn't be physically.  He dose have a wolves vision, smell, hearing, and telepathic communication.  Would he be human, is he human now?  Humans can not see, sniff, listen, and talk telepathic like wolves in the WoT can.  So would he be insane, or something of a different beast.  

So what your saying is if someone turns insane they don't know it, so Perrin is mad, yes, or just won't know it but is likely? Mat, Perrin and Rand can really, they just have too think of each other to see.

 

Nothing you say has anymore proof of what I say, you admit that yourself, so either say Perrin is mad or Rand isn't, or they or both sane???? because you can't offer anything to prove different.

 

That would end the thread but not be accurate, because we know insanity to be true through the taint on the male half of the one power. 

No thats wrong, insanity was there before the taint.

 

[Cursedmage]

Your right, I can't prove either one is insane, but I still believe Rand is a little crazy from touching the tainted one power.

 

Just because dead wolves can communicate in another reality dose not mean humans can in the physical world of the wheel of time, nowhere dose RJ suggest that they can, and we are left to wonder.

its in the book, both of them

 

Sorry that was a little abstract, I meant, just because wolves can communicate beyond the grave does not mean people can, and I don't remember anywhere in the books that it implies otherwise.  I believe I did say I haven't read the series in about a year now.

 

I think my whole argument comes down to Perrin, from my point of view, wouldn't be insane if he lost his humanity to a wolf, and Rand would be insane if LTT ever took over, which he did in KoD.  However, Pale, that is just my opinion and I believe these forums are for expressing just that.

 

Sorry for the typos, I try to reread and get them fixed but sometimes they show up, not like any of this is going to be published anyways.

[Phariah]

a little more to support my possession theory LoC  page 571 Fain

" he could feel Al'Thor,could point to him,this close.Al'Thor pulled at him, pulled till it hurt.There was a difference lately,a difference that had come suddenly, almost as if someone else had suddenly taken partial possession of Al'Thor , and in doing so pushed away a part of Fain's own possession."

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

a little more to support my possession theory LoC  page 571 Fain

" he could feel Al'Thor,could point to him,this close.Al'Thor pulled at him, pulled till it hurt.There was a difference lately,a difference that had come suddenly, almost as if someone else had suddenly taken partial possession of Al'Thor , and in doing so pushed away a part of Fain's own possession."

 

 

 

That refers to Alannas bond, or the timing suggests this. Rands PoVs would be noticeably different if Lews Therin had taken over at that point

[lordofsoup]

this is the dumbest thread ever

[Phariah]

not really nothing has been stated to suggest the bond is a form of possession but this is the period where  Rand starts to see LTT as more than a voice but another person he is speaking with and this is also where LTT begins to try an take control of the source from Rand page 567 LoC " i must kill him, Lews Therin muttered, and the power surged in Rand. Frozen , he struggled to push saidin away, and it was a struggle. Lews Therin was trying to hang on, trying to channel."one example

prior to this u just have Rand having LTT memories no voice  or struggle to gain control of the source against LTT

[Cursedmage]

not really nothing has been stated to suggest the bond is a form of possession but this is the period where  Rand starts to see LTT as more than a voice but another person he is speaking with and this is also where LTT begins to try an take control of the source from Rand page 567 LoC " i must kill him, Lews Therin muttered, and the power surged in Rand. Frozen , he struggled to push saidin away, and it was a struggle. Lews Therin was trying to hang on, trying to channel."one example

prior to this u just have Rand having LTT memories no voice  or struggle to gain control of the source against LTT

 

Well then, is Rand insane or something else?

[a pale tanned lover]

I think my whole argument comes down to Perrin, from my point of view, wouldn't be insane if he lost his humanity to a wolf, and Rand would be insane if LTT ever took over, which he did in KoD.  However, Pale, that is just my opinion and I believe these forums are for expressing just that.

 

A human thinking they are a wolf would be classed as insane to me, if someone I knew lost their mind and believed they were a wolf, I would call the men with white jackets.

Rand would be insane if LTT took him over because LTT is clearly mad.

Like I said about what you have quoted, you have given my things too mull over, thats what these threads are all about, we just have different opinions  ;D

[Toy and Minion]

this is the dumbest thread ever

 

You obviously haven't been everywhere on DM, then.

[Phariah]

lol  ;D  * bows before the ruler of fiddlestix *