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How Was Elaida Raised to Amrylin Legally?


Chernabog

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I can't believe Galina would have had another red sister waiting outside the Hall to be handy for a proxy vote.

 

Why not?  Galina is Black, and this was Mesaana's plan.

Where does it say this was Mesaana's plan?  Mesaana didn't reveal herself to the head of the BA until CoS.

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I believe one fact is being left out in this thread, one present both in Tar Valon as in Salidar:

Before Elaida was voted the new Amyrlin and some time before Egwene was voted Amyrlin there was another vote: the dismissal of an entire Ajah!

 

So:

First the Hall of the Tower dismissed Siuan Sanche as Amyrlin,

Then they officially dismissed the Blue Ajah

Finally Elaida was chosen by the six Ajah's, making this completely within the Tower Law.

 

Quite the same happened in Salidar. The first step was skipped, because they just didn't acknowledge Elaida as Amyrlin. Then the red Ajah was dismissed. This probably happened before Elayne and Nynaeve came to Salidar. Finally Egwene was chosen by the six Ajah's.

 

It's quite some twisting of the law, dismissing an Ajah first, but so is raising an Accepted.

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Neither hall "dismissed" an Ajah. Elaida decreed that the blue was no longer. The "rebels" would have no problem with red sitters in the hall.

 

As I stated previously, a greater consensus is a unanimous vote of those sitters present. And there is a minimum number required before the sitting can be considered formal.

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But wouldn't that take her out of the number of elgible voters?  In most open ballot Parlimentry votes were voters can choose only one canidate the canidate in question is removed from the voters, they would oblivously vote for themselves.

 

Factually incorrect, at least in part. In a parliamentary system the majority gets to choose the prime minister (in United Kingdon, Canada etc.) and even in the US the Speaker of the House and Leader of the Senate, the would be Prime Minister or Senate leader does not loose his/her vote, he/she in fact votes with his/her party and thus votes for himsel/herself. Thus Elaida as a Sitter would have been free to vote for herself at least failing any White Tower rule that we do not know of to the contrary.

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No, that's differnet in a big way.  I don't know how the Parlimentry governments handle voting for parlimentry leaders but in Congress the Democrats and Republicans decide who there canidate is before the "official" vote.  And even that has its back room issues.  When Nancy Pelosi first bacame Speaker of the House the majority of the Democrats didn't want her to be speaker.  The new democratic party congressmen/an where elected from districts that were historically republican held strongholds so to attract republican voters who were fed up with Bush the democratic canidate had to conservative and Pelosi was to liberal for these new people.

 

But I disgress, the majority party decides from several canidates in their own party who will be Speaker or President Pro-Tem in the Senate and because the system is two party the majority party with 465 seat congress 1 vote won't make a difference.  Techically the Vice-President is the PO of the Senate.

 

But in a lot of other open ballot parlimenty systems the canidates have to leave the room for the vote (I know the AS don't do this) but point being they are out of the vote.  If the Council of Nine were goint to vote one of their own to the Throne it is fair to the People of Illian that councilman doesn't get to vote.

 

Likewise it would be fair to the AS if a Sitter up for Amrylin doesn't get a vote either. So point is there would have only been ten to vote because all the Sitters in the Tower have been accounted for, so we know how many Sitters from each Ajah was present at that sitting.  Unless on of the Green Sitters regreted voting how she did, then she would have had to have a giant pair of brass balls to join the rebels. 

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Just a slight nitpick with your list of Sitters Kaznen.

 

Red Ajah: Teslyn, Pevara and Elaida voted to Depose, none of them fled (obviously)

Blue Ajah: Lyrelle, Lelaine, Mystery Sitter, none voted to Depose, 2 fled, 1's MIA or Dead

 

Yellow Ajah:

Doesine and Sedore voted to Depose and both stayed in the Tower

Magla did not vote to Depose and fled, she was replaced by Suana Dragand who is also Head

 

White Ajah:

 

Seaine Herimon did not vote to Depose, and stayed in the Tower

Saroiya did not vote and Fled, replaced by Ferane Neheran who is also Head of the Ajah

Velina voted to Depose and stayed

 

Brown Ajah:

Saerin Asnobar voted to Depose and stayed (She also regrets voting for Elaida)

Janya Frende and Takima did not vote and fled, replaced by Juilaine Madome and Shevan

 

Green Ajah:

Talene Minly and Rubinde voted to Depose and stayed

Faiselle did not vote and Fled replaced by Joline Maza who was replaced by Rina Hafden

 

Gray Ajah:

Yukiri voted to Depose and stayed

Varilin did not vote and Fled, replaced by Andaya Forae

Evanellien is most likely the third Gray, if so she voted to Depose and stayed in the Tower

 

The Red Sitters afterwards were Javindhra, Duhara and Pevara. Teslyn was a Sitter but Elaida deposed her.

 

So the votes to depose are

 

3 Red

2 Gray

2 Green

1 Brown

1 White

0 Blue

2 Yellow

 

And the number who fled are 3 Blues, 2 Browns, 0 Reds and 1 each of the other four Ajahs

 

As it stands, even if Elaida did "dissolve" the Blue Ajah that could not have happened until *after* she became Amyrlin and she couldn't be an Amyrlin without a vote from Blue (rather ironic). Matters involving the Greater Consensus do state that only 11 minimum are needed but there has to be a representative of each Ajah.

 

 

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As it stands, even if Elaida did "dissolve" the Blue Ajah that could not have happened until *after* she became Amyrlin and she couldn't be an Amyrlin without a vote from Blue (rather ironic). Matters involving the Greater Consensus do state that only 11 minimum are needed but there has to be a representative of each Ajah.

Well, we know that they don't need 1 from each Ajah when an Amyrlin is dethroned. Maybe the decision to raise an Amyrlin immediately after that can be seen as part of the same process.

 

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With the 'Red/Blue Ajah' idea being put aside, I think that's (raising the new Amyrlin within the same gathering) the only possible way for Elaida to bend the rules without breaking them.

But the dissolvement of the Blue Ajah puzzels me still. How could Elaida do this, when we know she didn't have any power by herself when she had just become Amyrlin?

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I find it highly doubtful it's part of the same process. Raising and Dethroning are two different things and require two different votes. If they both needed the Lesser Consensus then yes they could have done it like that all in one shot. They could also, in one Sitting vote on any number of items but they would need the proper number of Sitters and number of representatives from each Ajah if they intended to vote on things that would need both Consensus'.

 

 

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During the Dark Ages there was an event known as the Cadaver Synod (Corpse Trial).  A pope (Stephen III I believe) put one of his predecessors on trial (and because of the papal office said predecessor, Forimus(?), had been dead for several months).

 

The nature of the trial makes interesting reading.  But when I first learned about it the first thing I thought was, "I could so see this happening in the White Tower." 

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