An Interesting Find Re: The Creator

[MikeRiley]

If it wasn't Rand's thought then I'm going to have to go with Alanna's. Or Mat or Perrin's who share a similar link as Moridin does. Which is to say, I think it was Rand's thought. The wording is not clear that it wasn't Rand's. He's thinking that it's not something he would normally have thought of. Rand's been around Lews Therin way too long, they're picking up their thought patterns and manners. Lews Therin agrees with the thought.

 

The Creator did take a hand already, at Tarwin's Gap. Unless that was actually the Dark One speaking.. Maybe the Creator is behind the same/a similar seal the Dark One is. They can watch the world that was created but can't take a direct role in things themselves.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I disagree.  Sensing fury is a far cry from sharing a coherent philosophy, much less having it so seamlessly integrated that you don't know where it came from, and the sense of Moridin's presence was nowhere in this description.  And, most importantly, the examples you gave are directly related to specific instances of channeling.  Rand was not holding the Source when he had these philosophical thoughts.

 

The wording does not unequivocally indicate what you are claiming that it does.

 

[Luckers]

The bond does not allow the transfer of thoughts, so its not Alanna--or Elayne, Aviendha and Min whom its stated have a stronger bond than Alanna at this stage.

 

Mat and Perrin might be possible, though we've seen nothing to suggest it--unlike Moridin. More significantly though, the thought matches Moridin who was a philosopher--neither Perrin nor Mat would have that thought.

 

And it wasn't Rand.

 

I disagree.  Sensing fury is a far cry from sharing a coherent philosophy, much less having it so seamlessly integrated that you don't know where it came from, and the sense of Moridin's presence was nowhere in this description.  And, most importantly, the examples you gave are directly related to specific instances of channeling.  Rand was not holding the Source when he had these philosophical thoughts..

 

I agree--a far cry. Like, say, Rand's nausious perceptions in the early link are a far cry from they xrystal clear perception he has of Moridin in KoD.

 

The link is growing. As for it not being when he is channeling--Lews Therin's perception of Moridin knowing him comes when they are not channeling. Perhaps Moridin was channeling. Perhaps the link is edging beyond that. Perhaps the knowledge slipped through the last time they were channeling.

 

Lots of perhapses, which mean nothing. What we do know is that that knowledge did not come from Rand or Lews Therin.

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

What we do know is that that knowledge did not come from Rand or Lews Therin.

 

I'm afraid we don't know that at all.  An interesting morning though ... with both of our disagreements hinging on language ... which is hardly new.  ;)

 

Makes me wonder why I bothered going to school at all ... lol

[Luckers]

I wan't to make a joke about the American education system, but if feels like kicking a man when he's down.

 

;D

[RobertAlexWillis]

LOL ... this is where I really want to bring up the fact that not only have I made a study of language, but I actually speak precisely the same native dialect as Jim Rigney Jr. ...    :P

[Luckers]

Yes, well, you've certainly shown "us'll". Or does that only work with "ya'll"?

 

I confess I'm not fluent in Americanese.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yes, well, you've certainly shown "us'll". Or does that only work with "ya'll"?

 

Foreigners.  ::)  Yew'd best jist git yer hinder parts over t' yon lighthouse an buy y'all some trinkits.    :D

 

I confess I'm not fluent in Americanese.

 

Which normally would not be a liability.  Except when interpreting an author from the American South.  ;D

[Luckers]

You're going to use that comment against me, arn't you?

 

Damn it, my mum always told me being flippant would get me nowhere. Who'd have thought old people might have wisdom.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Who'd have thought old people might have wisdom.

 

LOL ... Old people, of course.

[Hallow]

A thought occured to me while reading thi thread. Rand has alot of people linked to him or in his head somehow. Perrin and Mat through the Taveren thingy. Moridin from the balefire incident. LTT just lives in there. Alanna, Elayne, Aviendha and Min through the warder bond. 8 people.

[Jethro]

Do you think this might be too close to Lord of the Rings?  I know RJ delibrately made the flight from the Two Rivers very similar to the hobbits leaving the Shire and Padan Fain was RJ's recreation of Gollum in Moria.  I'm not sure how I would feel about this happening.  I think it feel like RJ was relying too much on Tolkien.  Just my opinion.

 

I used to think that, I almost felt disgusted that RJ would put something so close to Gollum in Wheel of Time, but the more and more I read it the more and more it seems to me that everything-EVERYTHING-happens for a reason. So while I think Padan Fain/Shadar Logoth became the way it did for a reason, I know that that reason, whatever it is, is a much better one than anything ever put into Lord of the Rings.

 

I wan't to make a joke about the American education system, but if feels like kicking a man when he's down.

 

Okay that made me laugh. A lot. I know I shouldn't encourage people making racist comments but I couldnt resist.

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

I wan't to make a joke about the American education system, but if feels like kicking a man when he's down.

 

Seriously ... no one picked up on the extraneous apostrophe?  Oh, sweet irony.

[Roxinos]

Just for the record, I'm with RAW on this one. Nothing in the text suggests that the particular instant of Rand philosophizing was a connection with Moridin. It is a little ambiguous as to the source, whether Lews Therin or himself, but Rand seems to settle on himself as being the source of the philosophy because Lews Therin is nodding in agreement. All other times he gets something from Moridin, he's clear that it's another presence. While that can be explained simply by saying that the link is growing, Rand debunks that by having the doubts about how much of his thoughts are his own and how much are Lews Therin's. Rand's fear that he was losing his personality to Lews Therin had been growing for quite some time, and we have been seeing over many books how much of Lews Therin's mind has been just leaking unconsciously into Rand's.

 

That being said, Luckers, you haven't provided any reason for why it can't be Rand's thought. You just offhandedly state, "And it wasn't Rand." The bit that you quoted only shows that the thought didn't come from Lews Therin.

 

The emphasized "feel" could very easily be explained by saying it is to point out the extent to which Lews Therin's mind is being joined with Rand's. It is to the point where Rand does not have to hear Lews Therin's agreement, but rather he feels it. It scares him in his own right, leading him to wonder just how much of his thoughts are his own, he wonders, "How much space remained between them?" as RAW pointed out. And just before he wonders how much space remains between them he says, "Still, it was not the kind of thing he [Rand] would have considered before Lews Therin." [emphasis mine] That indicates that Rand acknowledges Lews Therin's influence on him, and that it is his own thoughts influenced by Lews Therin.

 

Edit: So I repeat: Why are you so certain that the thought cannot be Rand's?

 

Edit 2: And sorry for bringing this back up. :D

[seasnake]

It seems to me the Creator does take a hand, just not a direct one like the Dark One does.  He seems plan things out so that the light ultimately triumphs WITHOUT destroying agency.  It looks to me like the Creator throws out a couple of Ta'veren at critical junctions and let's them affect the pattern.  And when you look, you notice when the Trollocs are running wild and humanity is too divided to stop them, you get an Artur Hawkwing.  When the Dark One's seals are weakening, you get a Dragon who has the ability to fight back.  When the Last Hunt is about to begin, you get a Wolf King to rally the wolves to stop their Shadowbrothers. 

 

The Creator works through people, it seems, but putting the people he trusts to do the right thing in a position where they can counter the shadow.  And thus he affects events without overriding the will of his creations.  It's the same as putting a trusted subordinate in charge of your books, you know and trust he will do a good job so you give him authority to handle your accounts, but in truth he has the ability to be deceitful.

 

Otherwise, why would the supposedly neutral Wheel spin out Ta'veren and other things?  I think the Creator gives these threads of the pattern a shove now and again.

[Roxinos]

Otherwise, why would the supposedly neutral Wheel spin out Ta'veren and other things?

 

To prevent its own destruction. It's possible for a person on the side of the Shadow to be made into a ta'veren, though, incredibly unlikely.

[Luckers]

Who'd have thought old people might have wisdom.

 

LOL ... Old people, of course.

 

Your right, of course. That was very rude of me. I should have said 'youth-challenged'.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Bah.  Youth isn't a challenge.  Now get off my lawn!  >:(

[Roxinos]

I feel the love.

[Luckers]

Bah.  Youth isn't a challenge.  Now get off my lawn!   >:(

 

Yes'em.

 

I feel the love.

 

Is it old people love? Because thats icky and shouldn't be on tv.

[Roxinos]

Is it "old people love" if only one of the two is old?

[Luckers]

No, thats called praying.

 

Oh god, im a horrible person.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Wow.  Please, not on my lawn!

 

-shudder-

[Roxinos]

...That was probably the most awesomely terrible thing you've ever said, Luckers.