is Tsutama Rath REALLY Tsutama Rath

[Slothman]

Ok just a quick theory, since returning from exile (and her subsequent election fo highest of the red), Tsutama Rath has had several drastic personality changes. We are currently unsure who messana is posing as in the tower so I was wondering, is it possible that Tsutama Rath is actually messana, and that the real Tsutama was killed whilst in exile only to be replaced?

 

the reason I thought this was the timing of her re-appearance, and her sudden rise to power, combined with her change of personality. Messana has to be somebody, so why not Tsutama?

[Cybertrolloc]

I think the primary reason against is Jordan said we saw Mesaana's alter ego before KoD, and Tsutama is only briefly mentioned prior (question of the week on the Tor site). Silviania was a good possibility for a while, it's mentioned she's unorthodox and such...but both seem to have their heads screwed on mostly straight now that we've seen them. Also Mesaana looks "pale" in T'a'R where you can look however you want effortlessly...

 

The big thing to figure out is why didn't Mesaana go to the Choeden Kal battle to my mind, but haven't thought too much about that.

[Slothman]

thank you for clearing that up, i guess i can keep thinking about who she may be, but heres a question everyone wants to know the answer to

 

Where the heck is demandred?!

[Cybertrolloc]

Dem is tougher, at least we know Mesanna is in the tower ;) Ishy, Dem and Sammy ran the show as far as the Shadow is concerned in the War of Power--Jordan calls them the "uber Forsaken." Other Forsaken will do things on their own or at the Dark One's command of course.

 

Books 1-3 were mostly Ishy running things...he had his fingers in every plot or at least was aware of what was going on. Sammy from book 4 to his death ran most of what happened at least in the South and East and who knows what with Graendal--from the attack in the Stone, to messing with Sevanna later, to Ebou Dar, etc...

 

Dem may be involved with the Seanchan a bit, if only through Semi (Dark One's and his plan from LoC). I think things like the Whitecloaks and Masama could be tied to him, maybe things in the Borderlands outside of Graendal. Also Dem was awfully pleased with himself at the end of Lord of Chaos--but what did he really do? We know he and Ishidin are involved with the Black Tower in some way, but was Moridin around at the beginning of LoC (Taimidin or TaimTaim)? Did he take over the Shadow's interests with the Black Tower later (with Dem doing some freelance with the renegade Ashamen)?

 

I tend to think Dem is involved with building and running the Shadow war machine (but then there'd be a bigger response about the ones that went to attack Rand in KoD on him specifically when Moridin shares that news), with the occasional dipping his fingers into the affairs of the Westlands in areas that aren't the domain of another Forsaken (the aforementioned WC and Dragon followers). He did spy on Elayne in LoC too...

 

It depends, maybe Jordan spent book 6 setting up Taimandred and decided to drop it? Or any number of other changes he's made over the almost 20 years he's been writing the series? There hasn't been enough Dem to justify his place in the Shadow heirarchy--the uneasy allegience to Moridin--on screen or speculative from on screen so far.

[Dionysus]

I still think its most likely that Mesaana will end up being one of the sisters of the Brown Ajah, several different possibilities. There was a pretty long thread about this but I believe it was on the old temporary forums.

 

For Tsutama Rath, I have a theory on wotmania which deals with her, its rather long so I'll just link it - http://www.wotmania.com/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=1399&Category=KoD

 

As for Demi, no one really knows. I see there being six or seven possibilities, and they could all be true with proxies. One thing to keep in mind is that althoug Jordan has said that we have seen Mesaana's alter-ego, he has said that we have NOT seen Demandreds.

 

1) With the Whitecloaks.

2) With the Prophet.

3) With the Borderlanders who left the Borderlands.

4) With the Black Tower.

5) King Roedran in Murandy.

6) Hanging back in the Blight preparing the armies.

7) Gaining channelers from several different possible places; Shara, Land of the Madmen, Aiel male channelers going to the Blight, men and women picked out in Randland.

 

The Whitecloaks and the Prophet had major changes in Knife of Dreams, and both have lost considerable power and influence. He may have had proxies there, but I doubt it was where he set himself up. There have been a lot of storytime spent on these two stories, and I believe that Jordan would have introduced us to Demi's alter-ego in the previous 10 or 11 books dealing with these groups.

 

The Black Tower had Dashiva in it, and everything seems to point to Taim being linked to Moridin, not Demi (part of above theory as well). King Roedran and Murandy doesnt seem important enough for Demandred, only reason would be if it somehow was the last piece of a puzzle with Seanchan/Semi and White Tower/Mesi but I dont see how the three groups are associated.

 

The two most likely scenarios for me at least, is that he is with the Borderlanders or doing something outside of Randland like collecting channelers or preparing the army.

 

The Borderlanders abandoning the Borderlands effectively cripples the most battle ready area of Randland where the Shadow's troops will begin pouring out.

 

There also seems to be a major channeling gap between the shadow and Rand, assuming he is able to achieve a truce with the Seanchan. Going with Robert Jordans assessment that the Shadow is winning, where are all of these channelers going to come from?

[Luckers]

King Roedran seems likely to me, or the borderlanders... though i think that the Aes sedai with them are Black Ajah and behind stuff.

 

As for the war machine of the shadow... i think it is Cyndane and Moggy who is organising that on behalf of Moridin. We've seen them gathering the Forsaken in, we've seen Cyndane in a meeting with a man seemingly there to discuss shadow buisness and take charge of him. Cyndane and Moggy dont have jobs like the others, amongst the forces of the light. I think it is they who are gathering and organising the uprising of the darkfriends for the coming of TG.

 

As for Tsutama Rath... she doesn't seemed to have displayed any large personality changes. She grew hard willed in exile, and uncouth, but that doesn't really match Mesana anyway.

[Cybertrolloc]

Still this is Dem we're talking about. As far as the Shadow's armies go, he's the only military tactician left among them (with Sammael and Bel'al dead). So some involvment there, but unless there's something earthshattering involved with that, he's just not living up to his hype.

 

I'll throw in messing with the White Cloaks and at least a hand in happenings in Ghealdan, Murandy and Altara...and that's still only a patch on what Sammael had his hands in (most of the Shadow plots from Ishamael's first death until Sammael was chewed up by Mashadar...plus whatever else is still running around that hasn't been grabbed by another Forsaken, like the Gholam).

[demonspawn]

I think that when RJ eventually reveals Demandred's been lurking all this time, it will be completely unexpected and everyone will be thinking "Woah what the...?".

Unfortunately I haven't even got the merest inkling of his whereabouts. I've tried looking for hints throughout the books or clues in his fashion sense even but came up drawing a blank!

[RobertAlexWillis]

I'm thinking Demandred is with the Borderlanders ... but Murandy is a possibility.

 

I'm thinking Tsutama is exactly who she has always been, and that Mesaana is a posing as a servant, or a Brown in the libraries ... Elaida's personal secretary would be the perfect position. But I don't have anything resembling evidence for those.

[Luckers]

The biggest potential Mesanna alias is Danelle. She is a brown who physically matches Mesanna's looks (and it makes sense that Mesanna would choose to take over an Aes Sedai who looks like her, the less change to be done the stronger the illusion + we know that Alviarin thought Mesanna in real life looked familiar).

 

Danelle is shy and quiet and doesn't have many friends, which also makes sense for a replacee. She played a key role in the downfall of Suine, but then faded into the background almost instantly. The role she played was to bring more men into the Tower which led to the escalation of the hostilities resulting in the split.

 

Cybertolloc, im not saying that Demandred wont play a key part in directing the armies when it actually comes to Tarmon Gai'don, but the pre-TG gathering of the forces? Nah, i dont see it. There is neither glory nor power to be gained from that, which is why Moridin's two pets seem to be the ones with the job.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I can buy Danelle.

[demonspawn]

I can't believe that Mesaana is posing as an Aes Sedai if just for the fact she's only been free for what a year and a bit? (Not actually sure how long the Forsaken have been free could someone enlighten me please?)

Because as well as assuming an Aes Sedai identity she would have to know every thing about her incase someone started talking about past experiences. Unless like a lot of people seem to think shes posing as a brown who keeps herself to herself, or uses an inverted weave of compulsion on every sister who talks to her.

My feeling is that she may be posing as a black sisters personal seceratary, similar to Halima/Aran'gar.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Much the same as my problem with her being a Sister. There are certain things she needs to know about everyone else. Too many inconsequential seeming details that would trip her up.

[Guest Majsju]

What RJ has said on the matter is that there are enough clues before COT for us to be able to figure it out, and that we have seen her alter-ego.

 

This obviously rules out Tsutama. It also strongly suggests that Mesaana is posing as a sister, since we have been introduced to the character.

It is also important to keep in mind Alviarin's thoughts when Mesaana's disguise was dropped, Alviarin thought that Mesaana looked tantalizing familiar. It is very unlikely that Alviarin would pay enough attention to anyone not Aes Sedai in the Tower to cause such a reaction. It more or less rules out the White Ajah, since Alviarin would be familiar enough with everyone to recognize a face familiar to her, especially once she knows what she's looking for.

[Luckers]

The Aes Sedai are loners as a type. Beyond knowing the generalities of inter-acting within the sister hierarchy it would be very very easy to avoid talking about personal matters with another sister. Indeed, inquiring about another sisters buisness is taboo.

 

As long as Mesanna chose a sister who was 'dreamy' and quiet she could get away with a great deal. You see how easily the other Aes Sedai shrug off the actions of the Browns because they live in another world. Mesanna as a distant brown could drift through the Tower and avoid any personal contact. Then, on the few occaisions that she did screw up the hierarchy or whatever (which to my mind would be hard for her to do, its fairly obvious and she could slip through unscathed) she need merely use compulsion, as Moggy did when she was sent to the cook for a beating. Harder on Aes Sedai? Maybe. Impossible? Certainly not.

[Guest Majsju]

Dreamy, yes. Like Danelle.

From the FAQ (short version here only)

 

For:

She also has blue eyes.

 

She played a key role in unseating Siuan, and smirks at her at one point during the process.

 

She is dreamy and friendless, which would have made the real Danelle easy to "replace". Alviarin specifically places Danelle among the sisters with no close friends or ties when ruminating on who Mesaana could be [ACOS: Prologue, Lightnings, 41].

 

Danelle is Brown Ajah. Mesaana's tendency to wear brownish colors implies she is impersonating a Brown sister.

 

Counterargument: Or it could only indicate a personal preference, as noted above.

 

 

Against:

 

If Danelle is Mesaana, her presence at the coup is bizarre: taking direct action both in the set-up and in the execution of Siuan's overthrow is very unlike the rest of what we see of Mesaana's manipulate-from-the-shadows behavior.

Counterargument: This can be explained by supposing either that Mesaana is ballsier than she's letting on to Alviarin, or that Mesaana did not replace Danelle until after the coup.

 

 

It's mentioned that Danelle wears wool, not silk [TFOH: Prologue, The First Sparks Fall, 13].

 

http://www.darkfriends.net/wheel/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.2_mesaana.html

 

It's worth noting that the FAQ had Danelle as one of two main candidates, the other one being Tarna. After KOD Tarna seems extremely unlikely, which strengthens the case against Danelle.