I don't think that Lanfear got stilled/burnt out then healed!!!

[Zagorac]

I don't think that Lanfear got stilled/burnt out then healed!!! It just doesn't seem right.She would've become much weaker in the Power than she did and it doesn't explain the new body! And who Healed her? I can only think of two possibilities

 

1) She died! The DO gave her a new body and punished her by making her weaker in the Power and a servant of Moridin's (hence the name Cyndane)

 

2) We know that those strange people in that ter'angreal can give you gifts, but you must always pay the price! So ( and I know it sounds pretty far-fetched) maybe they had something to do with her change?

 

What I do know is that Moiraine is still trapped in there, and that Mat is going to save her! But I also think that she will come out with something extra. A 'gift'. And probably a very important one.

[Obligatory WOT Reference]

i'm pretty sure a theory is one of her "wishes" was to escape from finnland. and she could only do that by dying, so they killed her. since she fell into the doorway holding the OP, and since Lan couldn't feel his bond after Moiraine fell in, there was a very good chance that Lanfear was stilled along with Moiraine. And since she was stilled and ended up losing power when she got healed, the only reason we have for that is that a woman healed her. The DO gave her her new body. So what i'm saying is pretty much a combo of your two points with some slight differences.

[Luckers]

There are a million other threads on this matter. Re-raise those.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Luckers is right that this has all been addressed.  Here's my own personal short summary.

 

She died! The DO gave her a new body and punished her by making her weaker in the Power and a servant of Moridin's (hence the name Cyndane)

 

Yes, thats true.  And it wouldn't account for the difference in her strength in the Power.

 

We know that those strange people in that ter'angreal can give you gifts, but you must always pay the price! So ( and I know it sounds pretty far-fetched) maybe they had something to do with her change?

 

Yes, it is far-fetched.  Thats not something we have any reason to believe the Eelfinn can do.

 

I don't think that Lanfear got stilled/burnt out then healed!!! It just doesn't seem right.She would've become much weaker in the Power than she did and it doesn't explain the new body!

 

The new body doesn't need to be explained.  The Dark One transmigrated her soul after she died, just like he did for Ishamael/Moridin, Aginor/Osan'gar, and Balthamel/Aran'gar.

 

The apparent difference in "strength in the Power lost" as compared to Siuan and Leane is explicable in a variety of ways.  Lanfear was burned out, rather than stilled.  We know that there is a difference there (stilled women can still sense the Source, whereas burned out women cannot) so the Healing might have affected her differently.  I'll cover another possibility below.

 

And who Healed her?

 

Semirhage, if I had to guess.  But she got the info from Moghedien, who was in Salidar when Nynaeve Healed Siuan and Leane, and then taken back to Shayol Ghul before we ever see the restored Cyndane.  To the other possibility I promised to offer; Semirhage, having all of Nynaeve's talent for Healing and a great deal more experience, may have improved on her method.  The "all five powers" method of Healing that Nynaeve uses is not "one size fits all" like the standard Aes Sedai Healing.  Improvements in method can lead to better results..

[Luckers]

The apparent difference in "strength in the Power lost" as compared to Siuan and Leane is explicable in a variety of ways.  Lanfear was burned out, rather than stilled.  We know that there is a difference there (stilled women can still sense the Source, whereas burned out women cannot) so the Healing might have affected her differently.  I'll cover another possibility below.

 

Or, you know, there is no difference in the degree of power lost.

 

And who Healed her?

 

A Black Rebel Aes Sedai. It was common knowledge, a simple dream message could have summoned one via travelling.

 

But this is all explained elsewhere.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Or, you know, there is no difference in the degree of power lost.

 

Thats another option, I just didn't want to start another "maths" argument ... lol

[metria31183]

Or, you know, there is no difference in the degree of power lost.

 

Thats another option, I just didn't want to start another "maths" argument ... lol

 

As I recall, last time we all suddenly became statisticians...lol

 

Yes, it is far-fetched.  Thats not something we have any reason to believe the Eelfinn can do.

 

We don't have any reason to believe they can't do it either.

 

I think we are just going to have to RAFO on this one.  There really doesn't seem to be enough information.  The only way we can get any of the theories we have to work is by making assumptions that we really aren't sure about (i.e. how strong Lanfear really was in relation to Graendal).

[RobertAlexWillis]

We don't have any reason to believe they can't do it either.

 

Well, its more reasonable to assume they can't until proven otherwise, than to assume they can.  Otherwise we would have to assume that everyone has every ability until they prove that they don't.

 

Also, there is every reason to believe that Lanfear was burned out, along with Moiraine, as soon as they the redstone doorway melted, for the same reason.  There is no need to invent powers that we have no reason to believe the Eelfinn have.

[Casco]

We cant forget that Moiraine did have an huge advantage. She must have known that she would be burned out, or maby die,  if she did hold the power when the doorway melted, so maby she did let go of the power just after they did fall in to it? Lanfear didnt know that so she would not let go of the power ofc. Maby thats what killed her?

 

The doorway placing was a trap for Lanfear in the first place and Moiraine should know what happens on "the other side" if she manage to push lanfear inside the doorway. I think thats why she did survive in some way. She would have 3 wishes as anyone (she didnt have fire, iron or musicinstruments with her) but she cant get out..the doorway is destroyed.

 

Lanfear did get stilled (not burned out) and did die. Otherwise it would be hard to explain how she got a new body and have less power.

BTW...do the foxguard have Lanfear skin as cloth now??

[RobertAlexWillis]

We cant forget that Moiraine did have an huge advantage. She must have known that she would be burned out, or maby die,  if she did hold the power when the doorway melted, so maby she did let go of the power just after they did fall in to it?

 

She knew what would happen, but she did not let go of the Power.  If she had not been burned out, Lan would have known that she wasn't dead, because their bond would not have been broken.  Moreover, if she let go of the Power, she risked Lanfear doing the same.  Going into that doorway the way she did, knowing what would happen, is one of the single most courageous acts in this story.

 

Lanfear didnt know that so she would not let go of the power ofc. Maby thats what killed her?

 

Nope.  If that is what killed Lanfear, then Cyndane would not remember being "held by the Eelfinn", which she does.  Lanfear was a prisoner for a period of time.  Her direct cause of death is unknown.  But she was burned out during that time; otherwise the Eelfinn would never have been able to hold her.

 

The doorway placing was a trap for Lanfear in the first place and Moiraine should know what happens on "the other side" if she manage to push lanfear inside the doorway. I think thats why she did survive in some way. She would have 3 wishes as anyone (she didnt have fire, iron or musicinstruments with her) but she cant get out..the doorway is destroyed.

 

There is no reason to believe that the Eelfinn would bargain with people who destroyed their doorway and thereby destroyed the basis for the agreement.  There is every reason to believe, given what we know of their nature, to believe that they took Lanfear and Moiraine prisoner without giving them a single thing.

 

Lanfear did get stilled (not burned out) and did die. Otherwise it would be hard to explain how she got a new body and have less power.

 

Lanfear and Moiraine were both burned out.  Stilling means being purposefully cut off from the Source by another channeler.  Lanfear subsequently died, was transmigrated into Cyndane, and had her ability to channel Healed imperfectly by a woman.  This accounts for both her new body and lessening of strength in the Power.  Moiraine remains alive, unable to channel, and in custody.

 

BTW...do the foxguard have Lanfear skin as cloth now??

 

Quite possibly.

[Casco]

It will be interesting to se if there will be a way of healing burned out channelers in The gathering storm (or maby the last 2 books) but im not sure about that. The forsaken didnt know about healing a stilled channeler before NY did it. Maby its done in the same way and i hope so (both for Moiraine and Setalle Anan).

 

EDIT:

The stilled AS who get healed allways weep and feel the loss from their dead warders. How will this affect Moiraine? Will the bond "bounce back" when she get healed? Lan isnt dead so she shouldnt feel the same agony as the other AS ill think, or is it the breaking of the bound that makes them sad?

[RobertAlexWillis]

The stilled AS who get healed allways weep and feel the loss from their dead warders. How will this affect Moiraine? Will the bond "bounce back" when she get healed? Lan isnt dead so she shouldnt feel the same agony as the other AS ill think, or is it the breaking of the bound that makes them sad?

 

It is having the bond forcibly broken.  Lan has already been observed to have the effects of this breaking (his increased coldness after Moiraine's death ... and that summary is putting it very lightly).  However, Moiraine is probably not feeling the aftereffects in the way that she would had Lan died while she was still able to channel, just as Siuan did not feel the effects of Anjen's death until her ability to channel was restored.

 

Assuming the Moiraine's ability to channel it restored (something quite arguable in my opinion) then she would feel the effects of losing Lan's bond, although they would probably be muted somewhat by the knowledge that he actually is still alive (assuming he is at that point).

[Nightstrike]

Yes, it is far-fetched.  Thats not something we have any reason to believe the Eelfinn can do.

 

We don't have any reason to believe they can't do it either.

 

I think we are just going to have to RAFO on this one.  There really doesn't seem to be enough information.  The only way we can get any of the theories we have to work is by making assumptions that we really aren't sure about (i.e. how strong Lanfear really was in relation to Graendal).

It is true that we don't whether or not the Eelfinn can do anything about the OP strength. We don't know for sure what caused Lanfear's strength loss. We do know that Lanfear couldn't have lost more than half her strength, though. Siuan and Leane lost more than half their strengths. Cyndane is still much stronger than Moghedien (Graendal's point of view). She is even stronger than Graendal. Siuan was stilled, but Lanfear was burnt out. I don't think that difference is the cause for their different situations. It'll be interesting to read about this, I sure hope that we get some explanation.

 

 

It will be interesting to se if there will be a way of healing burned out channelers in The gathering storm (or maby the last 2 books) but im not sure about that. The forsaken didnt know about healing a stilled channeler before NY did it. Maby its done in the same way and i hope so (both for Moiraine and Setalle Anan).

Flinn can Heal burned out channelers. Nynaeve Healed the stilled ones. If Lanfear was Healed by a human (I think she was), then this person must have been able to Heal a burned out one. I don't know whether it's the same weave that is used for both cases. If it isn't, then maybe they are similar(?).

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Siuan and Leane lost more than half their strengths.

 

We do not know that.

 

I don't think that difference is the cause for their different situations.

 

Why?  Because it doesn't fit with your previous idea?

 

 

[Nightstrike]

Siuan and Leane lost more than half their strengths.

 

We do not know that.

Yes, we do. LoC, To Heal Again:

If Nynaeve couldn't Heal us all the way the first time, maybe she'll only take us to two-thirds what we were, or half. Even that would be better than now, but still most here would be as strong, and a good many stronger

 

 

I don't think that difference is the cause for their different situations.

 

Why?  Because it doesn't fit with your previous idea?

It fits my ideas just fine. And I said "I don't think", not "We know".

 

 

[Luckers]

Flinn can Heal burned out channelers.

 

For a second there i thought you said the Finns could heal burned out channelers and i was ready to snap--then i went red faced and backed away.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Siuan and Leane lost more than half their strengths.

 

We do not know that.

Yes, we do. LoC, To Heal Again:

If Nynaeve couldn't Heal us all the way the first time, maybe she'll only take us to two-thirds what we were, or half. Even that would be better than now, but still most here would be as strong, and a good many stronger

Because providing that quote worked so well the last twenty times you tried...

[Nightstrike]

Because providing that quote worked so well the last twenty times you tried...

It works well whether I try or not. It works well enough for all that have ever read it. LoC, To Heal Again:

If Nynaeve couldn't Heal us all the way the first time, maybe she'll only take us to two-thirds what we were, or half. Even that would be better than now, but still most here would be as strong, and a good many stronger

 

 

[Mr Ares]

It works well whether I try or not. It works well enough for all that have ever read it.

Not really, considering the amount of debate. You show that quote, and people disagree with you as to its interpretation. So no, it doesn't work.

[Nightstrike]

Not really, considering the amount of debate. You show that quote, and people disagree with you as to its interpretation. So no, it doesn't work.

It works 100%. If people disagree, then that changes nothing. There is only one possible interpretation.

 

 

If Nynaeve couldn't Heal us all the way the first time, maybe she'll only take us to two-thirds what we were, or half. Even that would be better than now, but still most here would be as strong, and a good many stronger

They are less than half their strength. If they became half their original strength, then most there would still be as strong, and a good many stronger.

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

It works 100%. If people disagree, then that changes nothing. There is only one possible interpretation.

 

No there isn't.

 

There are two things that Siuan and Leane (especially Siuan) were worried about, and they are connected.  Overall strength, and standing within the Absurdly Complicated Aes Sedai Pecking Order.  If they meant that they had lost half of their overall strength, then the difference has to be accounted for by one of the possibilities that I mentioned above (difference between being burned out and stilled, or possible refinements of the Healing process by Semirhage).  However, if they were referring to their standing, then a much smaller percentage of their overall strength would account for the change.  I'm sorry if that is a little too complicated for you, but there it is.  I'd tell you to do the math, but ... -shudder-

[rhadamanthus]

Flinn can Heal burned out channelers.

 

Wait, what?  I thought Flinn healed the Aes Sedai Rand stilled at Dumai's Wells.  ???

[Luckers]

This is why reading the other threads is a good thing.

 

By description Rand did not still Sashelle, Ronaille or Irgain. We have a description of stilling as a knife sharp weave slicing at the source of their channeling, like a shield. What Rand did was crush weaves they were holding in fists of spirit. In terms of effect this is much closer to what a ter'angreal does than stilling--Rand, like ter'angreal that are misused, over-stressed their abilities by placing excessive presure on a weave they were maintaining.

 

It is later phrased that Rand 'stilled' them because he did it to them intentionally, but in terms of method and effect what he did was burn them out.

[Mr Ares]

Not really, considering the amount of debate. You show that quote, and people disagree with you as to its interpretation. So no, it doesn't work.

It works 100%. If people disagree, then that changes nothing. There is only one possible interpretation.

Actually, it doesn't work at all. You just bring it up, and nobody accepts what you say. How does it work? Every time you use it, the debate continues. People disagree, so all you do is cause the argument to repeat. All this has happened before and all this will happen again There are neither beginnings nor endings to the arguments on Dragonmount, but it was a beginning.

 

They are less than half their strength. If they became half their original strength, then most there would still be as strong, and a good many stronger.

I know that's what you think it means. It didn't convince anyone last time you said it, nor will it next time you say it.

[Nightstrike]

There are two things that Siuan and Leane (especially Siuan) were worried about, and they are connected.  Overall strength, and standing within the Absurdly Complicated Aes Sedai Pecking Order.

They spoke of "strength" and "Healing", not "standing". Different words means diffent things. Plus the rest of that quote (see below), which would have made it even more obvious if it hadn't been absolutely clear to start with.¨

 

If they meant that they had lost half of their overall strength, then the difference has to be accounted for by one of the possibilities that I mentioned above (difference between being burned out and stilled, or possible refinements of the Healing process by Semirhage).

There are a lot more possibilities than those that you mentioned. Some of which are probably even more likely than the ones you mentioned. Others probably less so. We don't have any conclusive evidence for how to explain the lost strength. She couldn't have lost as much (proportionally) as Siuan and Leane. That's about as far the evidence can take us.

 

However, if they were referring to their standing, then a much smaller percentage of their overall strength would account for the change.  I'm sorry if that is a little too complicated for you, but there it is.  I'd tell you to do the math, but ... -shudder-

However, they weren't referring to their standing, so don't feel sorry about me. Worry about yourself instead.

 

Here comes this little quote again:

If Nynaeve couldn't Heal us all the way the first time, maybe she'll only take us to two-thirds what we were, or half. Even that would be better than now, but still most here would be as strong, and a good many stronger .

They are less than half their strength. If they became half their original strength, then most there would still be as strong, and a good many stronger.