Women aren't that catty!

[Kaznen]

No, Alivia was the damane who said she wanted to kill sul'dam. Now, you're just making stuff up. 

 

That was after she was convinced that sul'dams can learn to channle and she was imprisoned for 400+ years because she could do something the people who imprisoned her could themselves, she didn't always know that.  Before she was deprogrammed she thought she was a dangerous beast that needed to be controlled.

 

Everything Rand knows about Alvia he learns after they leave Caemlyn.

 

When has Alivia ever shown a lack of courage?

 

KoD, in Tear, in an inn called The Dragon, she hears a seanchan make a comment about were silk comes from and she almost faints.  Later when they are getting ready to meet "Tuon" he tells her to stay back because he is afraid she'll fall to pieces when confronted by a sul'dam.

 

At the end of the section when the damane were crying for their sul'dam to protect them, Alvia was once like that. 

[Gentled Ben]

No, Alivia was the damane who said she wanted to kill sul'dam. Now, you're just making stuff up. 

 

That was after she was convinced that sul'dams can learn to channle and she was imprisoned for 400+ years because she could do something the people who imprisoned her could themselves, she didn't always know that.  Before she was deprogrammed she thought she was a dangerous beast that needed to be controlled.

 

Everything Rand knows about Alvia he learns after they leave Caemlyn.

 

When has Alivia ever shown a lack of courage?

 

KoD, in Tear, in an inn called The Dragon, she hears a seanchan make a comment about were silk comes from and she almost faints.  Later when they are getting ready to meet "Tuon" he tells her to stay back because he is afraid she'll fall to pieces when confronted by a sul'dam.

 

At the end of the section when the damane were crying for their sul'dam to protect them, Alvia was once like that. 

 

What difference does it make when he gets to know Alivia? The Cleansing was after they left Caemlyn too, and it's at the Cleansing that you claimed he didn't know her. 

 

Alivia does not show a lack of courage; Rand shows a lack of trust. Whenever Alivia was "like that too," it was before they left Caemlyn, so it's irrelevant to your earlier argument.

 

And seriously man, what is your argument here? You started this whole thing by saying that Nynaeve was the strongest woman around Rand who could use the Cheoden Kal, and when Mr Ares pointed out that Alivia is stronger, you've made several posts trying to...what? What are you trying to achieve?  ??? Are you still trying to argue that Nynaeve was the strongest woman available to Rand at the time? She wasn't; you're wrong, and that's been shown to you. Are you trying to argue that Rand didn't know Alivia? He did; you're wrong, and that's been shown to you. Are you trying to argue that Nynaeve was a better choice for some other reason? Apparently you're not.

 

I don't know what the heck you're *trying* to argue, but you're not doing it very well.  :P Why don't you just admit that you were wrong about Nynaeve being the strongest available to him, and move back on topic?

[trakand_01]

I havent read all the posts, but I just wanted to comment on the inital post.

 

I am re-reading the WoT books on my daily commute to London. I just don't understand why Jordan had to write pretty much every female character as either nagging, catty or sarcastic. It almost feels like he had some personal dislike of women that he was venting in his books.

 

No, I think he'd just studied women. Most women ARE catty, nagging and / or sarcastic. I'm the second and third and I dont mind admitting it - i'd be a liar to deny it.

 

Although it's good that there are strong female characters like Nyneave, Aviendha and Egwene, they are just constantly rude to each other and to the men around them, that it begins to be hard to root for them.

 

Aviendha and Elayne are anything but rude to each other. Nynaeve is petulant, and so is Elayne. It's a common clash of personalities. Ever worked in an office with lots of women? They are very respectful of each other if you actually pay attention to their POV's, rather than just the blatant stereotyping of the princess and the 'trying to act older than she looks' woman.

 

I am hoping that Brandon Sanderson will write at least a couple of the girls as normal friendly human beings in the 12th book.

 

Min, Berelain, Moiraine, Tuon, Birgitte, Setalle Anan, Egwene?

 

Its funny that you complain about the stereotyping of the women, but not of the men - according to RJ all the men are worn down, under the thumb (Bashere, anyone?) and clearly not safe to be let out alone without a woman to supervise.

 

I think that RJ has tried to be quite honest in his depiction of the women. Nynaeve's exist in this world, as to Elaynes, Mins and Berelains. I know one of each and two Berelains come to mention it.

 

Thing is, much as we whine and whinge about it, we ARE like this and frankly, any woman who swears she's never shared a catty remark, a sarcastic comment or nagged someone is lying. I've done all three today and i dont mind admitting it. Even in this post i'm sarcastic, and in your original post, you were (no offence intended) a little whiney - I've read other posts of yours (about Mat) complaining about women being victimised / treated as objects. It's obviously something you have an issue with and that's absolutely fine - im not condemning that at all, I personally have an issue with Elayne's snootiness and Arymilla's sheer disregard for everyone and everything, but I'm also aware that at the end of the day, this is a series of books, set in a different age and time. At the same time, I can relate to a little bit of each and every woman's character.

[trakand_01]

 

You know how it is in junior high school when a few very powerful popular girls start bullying the unpopular girls?  They are almost never blatant about it, it's behind the back name-calling and subtle shunning.  That's how women work, there's no point in denying it.

 

I deny it. I dont know when or where you went to school but at my school, bullying by girls involved having your clothes stolen whilst you were in the shower, being sprayed with paint in Art and being pushed into puddles. I dont call that subtle or non-blatant. 

 

Bullying happens, just not the way that Jordan writes it. 

 

You've obviously been lucky enough to live in a very placid society. Bullying happens all over the world in every scenario from nursery to board meetings and every person conducts and experiences it in a different way. Women are no different from men, in my experience. In fact, men are easier to deal with as a woman.

 

But he's probably never experienced that kind of bullying, just like I've never experienced a male type of bullying (giving or taking).  It's understandable, but the main problem with him is the hammer he uses to write.  He just keeps pounding away at us with these same characteristics in his female characters over and over and over, with very little variation to their personalities.

 

That's because he's developed true personalities - which don't just change overnight. They are all strong personalities and to be able to maintain them all throughout now 11 and nearly 12 books is admirable. Anyone reading book 12 and reading out a list of personality traits to someone on book 1 would be able to match character for character without fail, except perhaps with the exception of Perrin who I think has changed significantly.

 

I get the point he's trying to make about women being powerful, I don't need it hammered into my skull.  Of course, adverbs and adjectives and lines about women smoothing their skirts make longer books.

 

But women aren't catty or sarcastic, right?

[Gentled Ben]

Haha...Welcome back, Trakand.  :)