Vileness after the Aiel War...

[Rand alThor]

I don't have my books with me, so I forget the names of the Aes Sedai who talk about this. Many times there is talk of the vileness that happened after the Aiel War. Does anyone have a clue as to what the "vileness" could be?

[Guest Majsju]

A pretty good summary...

http://www.darkfriends.net/wheel/2_nondark/2.4_yore/2.4.11_vileness.html

[Luckers]

It involved a fashion craze where people liked to get dirty. The oiliest smelliest person was like topdog in the courts.

 

 

i.e. Maj's thing pretty much explains it all.

[Jonn]

Who are the Searchers that survived, and where are they now? I know Cadsuane is thought to be one of the searchers. Anyone else besides her escape the Black Ajah?

[Guest cwestervelt]

I'm not even sure if Cadsuane was one of the Searchers that Tamra chose. I always thought that Cadsuane got a whiff that something was up on her own. My understanding was that the Black Ajah got all of the official searchers.

[Guest Majsju]

I'm not even sure if Cadsuane was one of the Searchers that Tamra chose. I always thought that Cadsuane got a whiff that something was up on her own. My understanding was that the Black Ajah got all of the official searchers.

 

That's how I've seen it too. Cadsuane seems very much like a person to give herself little quests just to keep life interesting. Root out the black ajah this week, hunt down a false dragon the next...

[loki redfern]

wasnt she officially "retired" or some such, although thatcould just be a smokescreen kind of thing

[Luckers]

Cads came out of retirement during the Aiel War, and returned to it after.

 

And yeah, i pretty much got the same feeling as Maj and cwestervelt. She's just pretty canny, and her comment to Rand where she talks about having suspicions he was around, but decided to wait until he grew up before involving herself strikes me as contrary to the mission of the Searchers.

[Rand alThor]

A pretty good summary...

http://www.darkfriends.net/wheel/2_nondark/2.4_yore/2.4.11_vileness.html

 

The link doesn't work... So basically the vileness was having "searchers" try and find Rand and root out the Black Ajah? If so, what's so vile about that?

[Kadere]

If you've read New Spring then you should have a good idea of what the vileness was all about. They ended up finding every man they assumed may have the power, even if they didn't, and killing them. That's why they hunt after Lan in New Spring because they believe his "luck" has to do with the Power. Then when Ishamael find out about it, he got PISSED because he didn't want the Dragon killed yet.

[Jonn]

The Vileness is basically all of the deaths of Aes Sedai including two Amyrlins and many of the most prominent, powerful Aes Sedai living at the time (including the Searchers). It all stems from the clandestine search for baby Rand. The Vileness refers to the backlash of misfortunes, the search brought down on the Tower and the rest of the world.

 

It was a vast conspiracy involving most visibly, the Red Ajah, and underneath it all, the Black Ajah.

 

It isn't really known whether Tamra contacted Cadsuane about joining the search, but Cadsuane had just come out of retirement during the Aiel War and was in and out of the Tower during the beginning of the Vileness. In fact, Moiraine ran into her in the borderlands while she was following hers and Siuan's leads to locate the child Dragon.

 

On the surface it appears that the five mentioned as official searchers were the only one's Tamra set out to find the Dragon. We as readers though should all be aware that Aes Sedai operate using several gambits to fulfill their interests. An Amyrlin can give rather implicit or explicit orders depending on her level of trust with the person she is ordering.

 

Instead of outright ordering an Aes Sedai like Cadsuane, a subtle Amyrlin (as a Blue it makes it a foregone conclusion that Tamra was subtle) will try to suggest the path that an Aes Sedai can take of her own accord.

 

As a result you of course not only have Siuan and Moiraine surviving and secretly looking for baby Rand. You have others like Cadsuane and Verin becoming very active. Sending out her 5 searchers whom Tamra chose from different ajahs, left a faint trail for the confidants of the 5 dead searchers to pick up on if they knew how to look. The fact that they ended up dead would obviously be predicated by the fact that the Black Ajah found out their purpose, so leaving clues wouldn't be the most imprudent thing to do if you were in Tamra's position.

 

Again, Tamra may not have directly approached the secret set of searchers like Moiraine, but she must have had an inkling that there were others willing to participate in the same task. It was probably best to keep them separated from those she directly ordered. Plausible deniability.

[Dionysus]

I thought it was something else.

 

Aes Sedai have never officially recognized the Black Ajah, and surely a plot to kill babies couldnt be run by the tower.

 

The vileness was the illegal gentling of male channelers without bringing them to the tower to have the proper "tests" taken to ensure it wasnt the Dragon Reborn.

 

The killing of all the lucky babies and such was a Black Ajah plot, and unknown to most Aes Sedai, and since many sisters refer to the vileness, whereas many sisters are unsure or refuse to believe the Black Ajah exist, it has nothing to do with the killing of babies or lucky people from New Spring. Though they are closely related as they happened at the same time.

 

The Red Ajah sitters got exiled for 15 years because of it, Elaida was involved, Galina escaped punishment as they did not know she was the Highest of the Reds.

 

Oh, and Thoms nephew Owyn was presumably stilled at this time.

 

I could very well be wrong though.

[Jonn]

Two Amyrlins dead in a few years?

Some of the strongest in the Tower dead?

The most powerful Foreteller, dead?

And the Red Ajah's missteps on top of that...

 

All of it was set off by the Black Ajah's uncovering of Tamra's search.

 

Maj's link says, and I agree, that it looks like the Black Ajah only found out that the Dragon had been reborn, not WHEN he was reborn. So basically, they weren't looking for babies. That was pretty obvious.

 

The Red Ajah scandal was part of it, but not the whole picture.

 

Aes Sedai dropping dead by the half dozen, even Amyrlins...The fact that not all of the answers came in the open, that would lead me to believe that that is why the entire situation would be referred to as the Vileness. There isn't another way to put it. Everything seemed to be going wrong for the Tower all at once.

 

It was the most cataclymic time in the Tower since Hawkwing's Era. Well, that is...up until the Tower split because of Elaida's coup.

 

If you want to get technical, this is also an extension of the backlash of the Vileness after the Aiel War. Siuan was continuing to stay involved in the hunt for Rand in secret, even as Amyrlin. It cost her, and it split the Tower in two.

[Luckers]

No, the acknowledged vileness involve the summary gentling of various men who could channel by the red ajah shortly after the aiel war. In reality at this time there also was a lot of men who died because they were assumed to be able to channel by their luck in surviving incidents that others normally didn't. During this time Ishamael discovered that the leader of the black ajah had instigated the black and red search and dertoy mission, and got pretty angry (he killed the then head of the black ajah)

 

The Tower became awarwe of parts of these actions and the three sitters for the red were exiled in result. Moiraine doesn't agree with this and promises to give thom, whose nephew died as a result of the vileness, the names of other aes sedai who were involved but never punished.

[Jonn]

Look, no doubt it was very bad of the Red Ajah to gentle men without bringing them into Tar Valon. That was pretty dastardly, but put it into perspective. What was there to do about it otherwise....NOT gentle men who can channel? They were going to be gentled and ostensibly, killed, no matter what the Red Ajah did. Bring them to Tar Valon to be gentled or gentle them on the spot. Result is the same if very harsh and indelicate of them for going with the latter.

 

The means are different, but the policy is the same.

 

Might as well call the gentling of men vile, period. In that case the vileness had been going on for 3000 years. In that time span can you say that there were no men gentled on the spot? If it were found out to be true, sure it would be a scandal, but a watershed moment for the Tower? Hardly.

 

The way it is said, the Vileness refers to a watershed point in the Tower's history.

 

The actions of the Red Ajah were simply a major symptomatic of the Vileness. The prosecution of the Sitters was the most public acknowledgement (amongst initiates)that there was something seriously disturbing going on in the White Tower. While a major part of the period refered to as the Vileness, I believe the term refers to not only the Red's misdoings but the entire chain of disasterous events that had befallen the Tower right after the Aiel War. Whether it is known or not by the general population of initiates, the source of it all was the Black Ajah's discovery of Tamra's mission to seek out the Dragon Reborn.

 

That discovery set off the events that would lead to the Red Ajah killing Tamra's successor, and going on with their policy of summarily gentling men who can channel, on the spot. It was all a front though purpetrated by the then Highest of the Red and also a Black High Council, Galina Casban, and the later executed Black Ajah leader Jarna. All of it was to eliminate the Dragon Reborn. It was only when Ishamael stopped it that the Vileness began to plateau and even out.

[Guest cwestervelt]

The Black Ajah activity is not included in what is referred to as the "Vileness". Except for Moiraine and a very few others, there wasn't anyone that even suspected it was going on. If all of the murders that were committed were considered work Aes Sedai work and part of the "Vileness", they would have been forced to admit that the Black Ajah existed 20 years sooner than they did.

[Jonn]

The Black Ajah activity is not included in what is referred to as the "Vileness". Except for Moiraine and a very few others' date=' there wasn't anyone that even suspected it was going on. If all of the murders that were committed were considered work Aes Sedai work and part of the "Vileness", they would have been forced to admit that the Black Ajah existed 20 years sooner than they did.[/quote']

 

I think we've gotten to the splitting of hairs here.

 

The Vileness isn't defined by the admission of the Aes Sedai that the Black Ajah exizts.

 

The Vileness is the series of catostrophic events that happened one on top of another in the time immediately after the end of the Aiel War.

 

My definition includes not just the Red Ajah scandal but also the deaths of not only Two Amyrlins, but several of the most powerful Aes Sedai in half a millenia, politically and regarding strength in the One Power.

 

These events were all a result of Tamra's hunt for the Dragon, and the Black Ajah finding out about it.

 

It has nothing to do with uncovering the Black Ajah.

 

It's a fact that all of the events that occured are a result of the Black Ajah's activity, and it isn't dependant on how many in the Tower knew that fact.

 

The lack of common knowledge that all of this was because of the Black Ajah does not stop these events from being regarded as "...the vileness after the Aiel War."

 

The Vileness refers to the events, not the aknowledgement of the cause.

 

I'm simply saying that the events include the deaths of two Amyrlins, several powerful Aes Sedai, many young men to the Reds, and several unfortunate people caught up in the Black Ajah's counter to Tamra's search (including several nobles and royal family members).