Do the characters have free will?

[Galeros]

I am reading through the series and one thing that bothers me is that it seems that the characters do not truly have any free will. It seems like they are merely pawns for the Wheel. I am beginning to see the Wheel as a sinister, manipulative entity that costs thousands their lives merely because of its "need" to "fix" itself. I know I am pretty sure I read an interview somewhere where Jordan said the Wheel is not sentient, but it still seems awfully sinister to me.

[42Bonzo88]

    I can see where you may think that all of the characters don't make thier own choices, but I disagree. I believe that the wheel is sentient and most of the people make thier own choices. Let's look at two examples:

 

    1. Rand and the other Tav'eren. The Wheel spins out Tav'eren when it specifically needs to bring it back to the happy medium. Rand needs certain things to work for Tarmon Gaidon. So, his influence with rulers, the sea folk, etc. sometimes feel like everything can go his way, then something will turn disastrously wrong like when he tried using Callandor against the Seanchan. Even though, he "won" because the Seanchan retreated, was it worth all that he lost in killing some of his own people.

 

    2. Aes Sedai bullying. Because of the reputation that Aes Sedai has had for thousands of years, they can go to Rulers, Merchants, Captains, Whitecloaks, and turn the world to their liking with treatys to end wars, preventing other wars, and generally poking their noses anywhere they wish. In the last books we find that they are not as good as they think they are and have had to drop a notch or two dealing with the Aiel, Windfinders and Rand.

 

Hope this helps and please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Mr Ares]

I am beginning to see the Wheel as a sinister, manipulative entity that costs thousands their lives merely because of its "need" to "fix" itself.

If it breaks, they all die.

 

I believe that the wheel is sentient and most of the people make thier own choices.

I think you'll find RJ said it wasn't. More of a fuzzy logic device, not self aware.

 

All indication seem to be that will is not entirely free - that the Pattern nudges things. Not it is not completely controlling. Most people are not sufficiently powerful to make a dramatic difference to the Weave of the Pattern. If a farmer decided to move to the city, it won't make a lot of difference, so the Pattern is unlikely to interfere, so whatever influences there are on his or her choice, the Wheel is unlikely to be one of them. However, if Rand wants to do something, that is potentially a massive difference, so he is kept on a shorter lead.

 

You see, the Wheel of Time weaves the Pattern of the Ages, and the threads it uses are lives. It is not fixed, the Pattern, not always. If a man tries to change the direction of his life and the Pattern has room for it, the Wheel just weaves on and takes it in. There is always room for small changes, but sometimes the Pattern simply won't accept a big change, no matter how hard you try. You understand?"

Rand nodded. "I could live on the farm or in Emond's Field, and that would be a small change. If I wanted to be a king, though . . . ."

 

- The Eye of the World,Web of the Pattern

This sums it up. The Wheel resists big changes to the Weave of the Pattern.

[xocist]

The wheel isn't evil or sinister.... but that doesn't make it good or right. We know, from the Chosen, that the Bore is where the pattern is weaker, and we also know that the pattern governs- no- manipulates the lives of everybody. If someone desires something strongly enough, they can move against the will of the pattern, but the pattern will just find another way to see it's end. It might not be concious on any level we understand, but there are a few lines that hint at it having a vague awareness. So most, if not every, person is a mean for an ultimate end (not that there are ends, but you get the point)... Actually if anything the end is to prevent an end. The Dark One clearly has a desire to destroy the pattern, or at least to plunge it into chaos. There are numerous questions as to whether or not the pattern itself actually acts as a 'prison' (for want of a better word) for the Dark One, or the pattern is a means for fighting it. The pattern's exact purpose (and intentions) are unclear. As it could work a lot harder to help in the fight against the Dark One, but instead only sees to help (though, admitedly, sometimes also to hinder) a handful of people by using others as pawns.

What we DO know about the pattern, is that it desires (at least in the part of time we're concerned with) Tarmon Gaidon to happen in a certain way (and probably for Rand to defeat the Dark One)... Also, this is further confused by the 'reflections' of the pattern, which confuse the philosophy of the pattern even more.

The question is not what the pattern wants or not, but how one should respond to it. Should one go along with the pattern, just because the pattern wills something to be so? If so, this reaises questions about the moral responsibility of eveybody. Darkfriends are only darkfriends because 'the wheel weaves as the wheel wills' and other such nonsense. It'd be nice to believe that people who do evil are going against the pattern, but Moiraine told Perrin that is not true. So should one go along with whatever the pattern says? Regardless of whether it's right or wrong, regardless of whether we TRULY want it (though how can we even know that), regardless of whether or not the light-forsaken pattern gives a damn about us?

The obvious answer to this is no, of course not, we're practically enslaved to live within the pattern's structure, and though some people (Rand, included) seem to be happy with the little wiggle-room they're allowed, it's not enough for others. But there is only one known weapon against the pattern, balefire. With balefire one could throw the pattern into chaos, the disorder thus freeing everyone. The downside of this is you'd not only need a lot of strength in the Power to pull this off on a great enough scale, but there's a good chance you'd destroy a large chunk of the world, and the Dark One may be released. Though this raises another question about whether you should join the ranks of the shadow merely for a shot at freedom.

As you may have guessed, I'm fascinated by the philosophy of WoT, but seeming as though the pattern is essentially 'fate' then no, they dont have freedom (maybe ta'veren have a slightly different deal, they have more freedom themselves (if only slightly), but events will conspire to turn things a certain way, so they're still stuck there), and on the most part, there's not a single thing they can do about it.

 

But I know what you mean, I had a similar problem with it when I started reading it. Most people don't seem to have a problem with it, but us existentialists, we know the truth! :P

[Osan`gar]

I am beginning to see the Wheel as a sinister, manipulative entity that costs thousands their lives merely because of its "need" to "fix" itself.

 

The wheel, or pattern if you will is neither good nor evil. It does however have needs, and it uses the tools available to it i.e. Taveren, and other lives, to meet those needs. If it helps you look at it more clearly think of the Pattern as "Fate" it places the threads of human lives just so; that it may meet a specific goal. sometimes this is good for people sometimes it is bad, the patterns only concern is the goal. do you really care if your hammer is happy? or do you use it for it's intended purpose, and get a new one if it breaks? in any event their fate is pre-destined from the time their threads are woven and while there may be some wiggle room for variance their fates are generqally sealed to a specific destiny. unless they are Taveren.

[Galeros]

Heh, I am not sure if anyone here has played Knights of the Old Republic 2, but the Wheel of Time has plenty of room for a Kreia type character who wants to see the Wheel destroyed because it maniupulates people and costs them their lives. Whether it is possible to destroy the Wheel and still keep the world from falling apart is another matter.

 

Yes, I know canonically it is not possible to destroy the Wheel and keep the world from being destroyed. All I have to say to that is...

 

"Go beyond the Impossible and kick reason to the curb, that is the Guren-Dan Way!"

 

Man, I have not even seen the show that quote is from. :P

[benr]

The only character with the power to destroy the Wheel is Rand.  His studies with Fel led him to many ideas, and if he has decided that free will is preferable, then...  By the way, Mr Ares, I'll be lazy - where is it said that all will die if the Wheel is destroyed?

[Roxinos]

The Wheel weaves the Pattern. The Pattern is made of the threads of lives woven together. If the Wheel stops weaving because it is destroyed or for another other reason, then time stops. Arguably, if time stops, everyone dies.

[Charlz Fel]

I don't think the Wheel is that different from real life, at least not as far as choices are concerned.  [Obviously, our time is not circular.]  Realistically, if I want to become President of the United States, even if it's theoretically possible, my chances are practically nil.  Certainly, the Wheel intervenes (largely, but not exclusively, through "coincidences") to make certain choices available that would not otherwise be (e.g., making sure there was an Ogier at the Queen's Blessing in EOTW when the company needed to use the Ways), or to eliminate choices (I think the best example of this concerns Rand's declaring himself the Dragon).

 

But as far as I can tell, the better part of the Wheel's role is to make sure that the important people will be the sort of people who will make the decisions that need to be made, based on the options available to them.  Mat, for instance, could have left the wetlander armies to their fate in the battle of Carhien, but the Wheel had made sure he was the sort of person who has real trouble leaving people to their fate.  ["You remind me of an uncle of mine...."]

 

There's another argument that is less coherent, but may be more true to my feelings on the matter.  Although the Pattern occasionally intervenes directly (for instance, making Rand and Ba'alzamon's duel appear in the sky, and to a lesser extent through the ta'veren devices), for the most part, it is made up purely of the choices people make, and their natural consequences.  Since the Pattern is really made up of people's choices, it is hard for me to see it as restricting those choices, except inasmuch as choices are naturally restricted by reality and the choices of others.  The basis for Min's visions, etc., is more in prediction than direct intervention.

 

Another thought that just occurred to me: Perhaps the Pattern's "manipulation" and "coincidences" are based, not in restricting people's available choices directly, but in deciding which of the multitude of "worlds that might be" is the real world.  Thus, there are many worlds in which Rand never was declared the Dragon Reborn because people did not make the right choices, or the right coincidences otherwise did not come about.  However, because the Wheel is at the helm, the "real world"--in particular, the world that determines whether the Dark One is freed--is the world in which everything works out just right for Rand to have a chance to win the Last Battle.

[benr]

The Wheel weaves the Pattern. The Pattern is made of the threads of lives woven together. If the Wheel stops weaving because it is destroyed or for another other reason, then time stops. Arguably, if time stops, everyone dies.

 

I follow you until you say "If the Wheel stops weaving because it is destroyed or for another reason, then time stops."  Why would time stop?  My thought is that time wouldn't stop, but that the threads would then continue on their own paths, which would be the definition of free will.

[Alghar Khan]

I follow you until you say "If the Wheel stops weaving because it is destroyed or for another reason, then time stops."  Why would time stop?  My thought is that time wouldn't stop, but that the threads would then continue on their own paths, which would be the definition of free will.

If the Wheel is destroyed, then there wouldn't be any more threads or any more pattern. No people, plants or animals alive. Not in that particular universe, anyway. The wheel doesn't preclude free will. The wheel only influence the general circumstances and timing of events. The things we would call "chance" in our universe. The wheel determines ta'veren and when/where certain souls are "spun out" (born). Possibly some other "small" things too (like spin in quantum theory in our universe). We're speaking butterfly effect in quantity. But each person still has their own free will. The wheel is a very advanced artificial intelligence, according to RJ. But I don't think it is self-aware. Just making choices almost as if it was.

 

 

[Roxinos]

If the Wheel is destroyed, then there wouldn't be any more threads or any more pattern.

 

The Wheel does not create the threads. The Wheel just weaves them together. The threads exist without the Wheel. There just is no reality without some guiding force weaving the Age Lace.

 

My thought is that time wouldn't stop, but that the threads would then continue on their own paths

 

It's called The Wheel of Time for a reason, ya know.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

The Wheel does not force time to be cyclical.  The experience we call time is not a 'thing' like the Dark One.  The Dark one is held captive by the Wheel.  Souls are of the Wheel.  Time is the effect on the soul as the Pattern is woven by the Wheel.  The past is what has been woven.  The present is what is being woven.  The future is what will be woven.  Portal Stone realms are "reflections of the Pattern", which show what might have been woven.  The World of Dreams is a "reflection of the reflections" (I believe that is how the books describe it).  I think of it as a place where a soul can hypothetically control which parts of the Pattern are real.  They construct a dream-reality from parts of different Portal Stone realms.

 

The Dark One is imprisoned in all of these reflections, and in reality.  Therefore, in none of the past turnings of the wheel, nor in any of the possible past turnings, nor in any hypothetical turning thought up by a soul, did the Dark One escape.  If time is actually cyclical and infinite, then 'possible past turning' is synonymous with 'possible future turning' - like RJ said, you can look both ways and come back to the same point.  That seems to cover every possible past and future, so the Dark One will not ever escape.

 

Many of the possible Patterns are still miserable though, and would be considered a 'win' by the Shadow.

 

If the Wheel is destroyed, the Pattern can not be woven.  Without a 'weaving' the concept of time is meaningless.  Although, if after the Wheel was broken some other force besides the Wheel began to weave the Age Lace, I suppose some kind of experience like time would exist.  Perhaps the DO would like to weave a Pattern.

 

Row, row, fight the power!

[Mr Ares]

if he has decided that free will is preferable, then...

Who says that's an option?

By the way, Mr Ares, I'll be lazy - where is it said that all will die if the Wheel is destroyed?

In so many words? It isn't. In Shai'tan planning to break the Wheel, slay the Great Serpent, kill time, it's pretty clear. Break Wheel, end time. No time=no life. There is no time for it to be lived in.

 

We know, from the Chosen, that the Bore is where the pattern is weaker

No, we know, from the Chosen, that the Bore is everywhere, and at Shayol Ghul there is a thinness in the Pattern that allows the Bore to be sensed.

Should one go along with the pattern, just because the pattern wills something to be so? If so, this reaises questions about the moral responsibility of eveybody. Darkfriends are only darkfriends because 'the wheel weaves as the wheel wills' and other such nonsense.

The Wheel imposes the Pattern of an Age, a general trend. Individual actions are given some leeway - the Pattern only involves itself as a corrective measure when things are drifting too far off course. Ta'veren, or Heroes, for example. Cases where the Wheel meddles in individual lives are the exception, not the norm. So "the Wheel made me do it" is not much of an excuse for your actions. Darkfriends are thus Darkfriends because they made a choice to be Darkfriends.

With balefire one could throw the pattern into chaos, the disorder thus freeing everyone.

No, with balefire you could throw the Pattern into disorder, thus killing everyone.

The downside of this

Aside from it ending the world, and also requiring a lot of people being killed to achieve. Mass murder as a means to an end, the end being the extinction of the entire universe. Sounds more like nihilism than existentialism.

Though this raises another question about whether you should join the ranks of the shadow merely for a shot at freedom.

Shai'tan is a control freak. No chance of freedom.

[Obligatory WOT Reference]

I would say yes they do. My main proof of that is the "possible worlds" that each decision that they made would bring about. In the Great Hunt as the group was travelling via portal stones to falme, they each saw the ramifications of what each decision they made was. If the freedom to make a decision is not free will i don't know what is.

[benr]

if he has decided that free will is preferable, then...

Who says that's an option?

 

As you are wont to say, lazy logic.  If I can think that free will is an option, then certainly Rand can.  He certainly has expressed resentment at being the Dragon (the "Why me! effect), and may have the goal of removing that onus from future Dragons.

 

By the way, Mr Ares, I'll be lazy - where is it said that all will die if the Wheel is destroyed?

In so many words? It isn't. In Shai'tan planning to break the Wheel, slay the Great Serpent, kill time, it's pretty clear. Break Wheel, end time. No time=no life. There is no time for it to be lived in.

 

It is the Wheel of TIME, not the Time of the WHEEL; this implies that the Wheel is a part of time, not that time is a part of the wheel.  Randland has circular time.  Linear time is another possibility.  The destruction of the Wheel destroys a part of time, not all of it. 

 

Part of my defense of this idea is that I don't want to see this whole 20 or so years of creativity end just as I think it will, as foreshadowed and prophesied.  It seems to me that RJ was a tremendous creative force, and I want a logical but surprise conclusion; one that astounds me in its veracity and simplicity.  On the other hand, if I've thought of it, it isn't all that creative or surprising.   

 

 

[xocist]

What kind of fool creators makes the fundamental laws of physics and the hand of fate the same thing? I mean ye gods, seriously!?

[Charlz Fel]

An interesting point here.  When Rand describes to Egwene how he makes a gateway, he states that he bores a hole through the Pattern.  Not through space; through the Pattern.  And Egwene does not think this will work for her, because it is "too much like changing the weave of the Pattern."  Likewise, when Egwene proposes such a method to Moghedien (who has just been thoroughly cowed), Moghedien says that if she tries it, she will be "sucked into. . . . I don't know what it is.  The space between the threads of the Pattern, maybe.  I don't think you would live very long.  I know you would never come back."

 

It sounds to me as if the Pattern is a pretty important part of the physics of this world.  Is the Pattern described here the same as the Wheel that does the "weaving"-- and manipulating?  It is hard to say, but from what I can pick up, the distinction between the two is at best very subtle.  Ta'veren, for instance, means "tied to the Pattern", not to the Wheel.

[Mr Ares]

As you are wont to say, lazy logic.

No. We do not know if "free will" or linear time are options in this universe.

 

It is the Wheel of TIME, not the Time of the WHEEL; this implies that the Wheel is a part of time, not that time is a part of the wheel. Randland has circular time.  Linear time is another possibility. The destruction of the Wheel destroys a part of time, not all of it.

No. It just destroys time. With no Wheel, there is no time. It is the Wheel that keeps time moving forward.

[benr]

As you are wont to say, lazy logic.

No. We do not know if "free will" or linear time are options in this universe.

 

Very good - we don't know.  That means it is possible.

 

It is the Wheel of TIME, not the Time of the WHEEL; this implies that the Wheel is a part of time, not that time is a part of the wheel. Randland has circular time.  Linear time is another possibility. The destruction of the Wheel destroys a part of time, not all of it.

No. It just destroys time. With no Wheel, there is no time. It is the Wheel that keeps time moving forward.

 

Pure speculation - as is mine.  Your contention that you KNOW there is not time without the Wheel has no more (or less) validity than mine that time will exist without the Wheel - only in a different way.  Another topic that may not be answered, although I am actually hopeful that it will be addressed. 

[Mr Ares]

Pure speculation - as is mine.

No, mine is backed up by what little evidence there is, yours isn't.