Mesaana <Spolier>

[Luckers]

cwestervelt, you asked for the source of RJ's quote stating that it is possibly to disguise strength?

 

It was at a post-TPOD signing in Washington. He said channelers can disguise strength as well as the ability entirely, but that very few people knew how to do it in the Age of Legends, and the Aes Sedai now don't even remember it being possible.

 

Additionally we have seen it before anyway. Lanfear disguises herself as Else Grinwell, and since a novice could hardly hide her ability entirely, but also couldn't walk around as the strongest female channeler ever, she must have disguised her strength.

[Moridin Hawkwing]

Doesn't it say somewhere that her voice sounds like chimes? And at the end of KoD the group of sisters that goes to the black tower, one of them gets mad that there are "children" at this tower and RJ makes a point to say that her voice was like chimes, angry chimes. I'm not sure which sister she was, but that seems like a decent indicator to me.

[akuhn]

sorry i'm new at this , so please bare with me. but i do not think messena is impersonated a sister for two reasons.

 

one i do not believe any of the chosen can impersonate another.

 

two for the above reason she would be the only sister that no one else knows.

 

just a thought

[Guest Majsju]

one i do not believe any of the chosen can impersonate another.

 

How about Lanfear impersonating Else Grinwell in TDR?

[algspkr]

one i do not believe any of the chosen can impersonate another.

 

How about Lanfear impersonating Else Grinwell in TDR?

Or Demandred? impersonating Sammeal in KoD?

[algspkr]

Tsutama Rath? nah, i rather doubt it. He personality doesn't really fit, and she was absent from Tower at stages when we know Mesanna was masquerading about as an Aes Sedai.

 

It's not Tarna either--she was another popular guess, but post-KoD its fairly obvious she's not. The biggest option is still Danelle, the brown who helped Elaida take down Suine. The dress type, looks and the fact that she played an integral part in the breaking of the tower, but then faded away all point to her.

 

Luckers, could you point out this timeline please. I have never believed Tsutama to be Mesanna, but have never had any evidence other than that.

[Luckers]

Or Demandred? impersonating Sammeal in KoD?

 

That was far more likely Taim then Demandred, in my opinion.

 

There is no reason the Chosen can't assume the likeness of another Chosen though.

 

Luckers, could you point out this timeline please. I have never believed Tsutama to be Mesanna, but have never had any evidence other than that.

 

Tsutama Rath is not recalled until after Elaida assumes the Amyrlin Seat. Mesanna was active from within the tower before then... she was involved in Be'lal's trap from within the tower, and likely the fall of Suine and the escalation of that conflict. Indeed given her statements about the Aes Sedai civil war in KoD to Aran'gar we can pretty much state as much. It was 'her plan' and so forth, as she said. Ergo, she was present before Tsutama was recalled from exile.

[RobertAlexWillis]

That was far more likely Taim then Demandred, in my opinion.

 

There is no reason the Chosen can't assume the likeness of another Chosen though.

 

Indeed. In fact, if it was Taim (and I agree that it probably was), it would be proof that he is Chosen, since whoever ordered those Myrdraal had to have the mark given the Chosen, and that doesn't seem to be suceptible to forgery.

 

Tsutama Rath is not recalled until after Elaida assumes the Amyrlin Seat. Mesanna was active from within the tower before then... she was involved in Be'lal's trap from within the tower, and likely the fall of Suine and the escalation of that conflict. Indeed given her statements about the Aes Sedai civil war in KoD to Aran'gar we can pretty much state as much. It was 'her plan' and so forth, as she said. Ergo, she was present before Tsutama was recalled from exile.

 

Ah crap I was gonna say that.

[Bob T Dwarf]

If Taim has descended to the status of Forsaken, why would he bother to disguise himself while in a place where only the Dark operates? How would he know enough about what Sammael looked like to create a convincing impersonation? Why would he choose such an obvious disguise? One that taunts the DO? Screams, "Yoo Hoo! I'm somebody you put in authority, and I'm doing something I'm not supposed to be doing!"?

[Luckers]

A disguise makes sense if he was acting outside of his authority, which i suspect he was. The attack in KoD is too haphazard to be the result of a plan of the Dark. The Forsaken know too well what Rand is capable of, having just had their asses handed to them by him. They know he has the Choedan Kal and Callandor (and had no reason to think that they wouldn't think of using them).

 

The plan involve the sending of trollocs on the off chance that it killed Rand. We have seen Taim use such blunt tactics before... the attack in PoD for instance. But he wasn't, i suspect, acting on behalf of the shadow (indeed, whoever did it, did it without permission from the shadow). There fore he wouldn't want his involvement blazoned accross the sky.

 

As for how he knows what Sammael looks like... Taim has displayed mannerisms of the Forsaken in the past, hinting that he has had many encounters with them--enough for their casual gestures to come accross. Additionally in KoD we see that he is wearing Sammael's sigil, indicating some sort of encounter between them.

 

As for the DO... he did it because he knew the DO wouldn't know which of the Forsaken had done it. As we see in KoD, it is the older Forsaken that come under suspicion, not Taim.

[algspkr]

Or Demandred? impersonating Sammeal in KoD?

 

That was far more likely Taim then Demandred, in my opinion.

You may be right, and even if you are not I do hope that Taim has received that promotion.

[Dark Justice]

Luckers: He was seriouslt using Sammaels sigil?

That completely slipped my attenion.

[Luckers]

Yup... its in the scene with Pevara... his hall is also done in the colours that Moridin favours.

[moriah]

I still keep thinking that Mesaana is Elaida's new MoN, Silviana.

 

I don't know why. Well, there are a few things -- RJ said Mesaana would be completely unveiled in later books, and that would mean that she would have to have more "scenes", not less.

 

All the candidates that have been mentioned either havne't been prominent in later books, or weren't around at all when he said she was.

 

Then the line about Alvi seeing her penance with Silviana as "punishment from her" is almost too much for me not to believe it.

 

But I'm just as likely to be wrong as I would be if I said anyone else... sooo.... this is my theory. :)

[Luckers]

Quote:

Quote:

Or Demandred? impersonating Sammeal in KoD?

 

 

That was far more likely Taim then Demandred, in my opinion.

 

 

You may be right, and even if you are not I do hope that Taim has received that promotion.

 

Unfortunately if it is the case then it requires that Taim did recieve the promotion. The person who ordered the assault bore the Chosen Mark.

 

I don't see Silviana being anything other then what she is. Amongst other things, she is too reasonable, to intelligent and too self-possessed... more so then Mesanna in any case. The way she deals with Egwene is much too intelligent, much to reasonable to come from Mesanna. And finally, i dont think there is any way that Mesanna would assume the position of the glorified teacher. Yes she created 'schools' in the War of Power, but they were bitter things. Silviana seems much too genuine about her intentions to be Mesanna, whose personal baggage would interfere.

[Mesaana]

Any theories on non-aes sedai people that Mesaana might be and still be in the tower? I can't think of any offhand, but not convinced she is masquerading as a "sister" either.

[airminxx]

Just a thought about Masuri in CoT...in chap Blacksmith's Puzzle, Masuri is wearing "russet silk", taps her fingers against her lips in thought as Messana is described as doing when speaking to Alviarin.

 

Musuri was at Dumais Wells as well. She would have been in the tower at the time of Be'lal's plot. Then with the Salidar faction upon leaving the tower and then at Dumai's Wells with the delegation from Salidar.

 

She meets secretly with Masema who is also meeting with the Seanchan and this just makes me think of the pact between Semirage, Demandred, and Messana to work together until the other chosen were taken out. Semirage is with the Seanchan, and I cant help but wonder about Demandred somehow being linked with Masema, which makes me wonder how Messana is tied in to their little plot. Perhaps with Perrin's groups?

 

Plus there has to be spy for the dark with Perrin's group as the forsaken seem to be involved (spying) on one of the 3 taveren.

 

I know this is probably unrealistic, as Masuri does have a warder and Perrin is noted in Blacksmith's puzzle in CoT that Masuri smells pleased and surprised at being pleased about the Wise Ones approval , but it just makes me curious about her.

[Hero of Satsuma]

Not to get too far off topic here.....

 

Where do the stories show that Lanfear posed as Else Grinwell? Not disputing it, just wondering where it came from.

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

Not to get too far off topic here.....

 

Where do the stories show that Lanfear posed as Else Grinwell? Not disputing it' date=' just wondering where it came from.[/quote']

 

Else was acting pretty strange and unlike herself in TDR. She rebuffs Mat and "coolly avoids his touch" and demands to know why he's out of bed. Overall, she acts more self-posessed and chill than the real Else.

 

But when we really find out, in 'A Trap to Spring, in TDR "Nynaeve tells her about the visit from "Else Grinwell" and about the evidence they found pointing to Tear. After a few moments' silence, Siuan responds the Else Grinwell was sent home ten days ago and that all the Black Ajah belongings were burned." [ quote from WoT Encyclopaedia ]

[Master of the Blades]

Has anyone thought of the possibility that Mesaana is not posing as anyone, just using MoM to hide her true identity?

 

We know that sisters rarely leave their quarters anymore, her strategy of dividing the Ajahs has worked exactly as she has planned. Given that she could roam the Tower undisturbed. When she does encounters sisters or servants she looks vaguely familiar so as not to arouse suspicion yet no one could put a name to her.

[icspots]

Not to get too far off topic here.....

 

Where do the stories show that Lanfear posed as Else Grinwell? Not disputing it' date=' just wondering where it came from.[/quote']

 

The Dragon Reborn: Chapter 25 Questions

 

Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne are discussing the lists of things Liandrin and her 13 stole. Egwene says they should use the twisted ring Ter'angreal to find answers.

 

"She became aware of a woman standing in the doorway, a woman in novice white, wither her hair in long braids. "Did no one ever teach you to knock, Else?" Nynaeve said.

 

Else tells them that the things from Liandrin and co. are in a store room and then leaves.

 

"That fool girl cannot be trusted not to blab to anyone who'll listen!" Nynaeve started for the door. Egwene grabbed up her skirts and darted past her at a run. Her shoes skidded on the tiles of the gallery, but she caught a glimpse of white vanishing down the nearest ramp and dashed after it. She must be running, too, to be so far ahead already. Why is she running? The flash of white was already disappearing down another ramp. Egwene followed.

 

A woman turned to face her at the foot of the ramp, and Egwene stopped in confusion. Whoever she was, this was certainly not Else. All in silver and white silk, she sparked feelings Egwene had never had before. She was taller, more beautiful by far, and the look in her black eyes made Egwene feel small, scrawny, and none too clean. She can probably channel more of the Power than I can too. Light, she is probably smarter than all three of us put together on top of it. It isn't fair for one woman to--Abruptly she realized the way her thought were going. Her cheeks rededened, and she gave herself a shake. She had never felt--less--than any other woman before, and she was not about to start now.

 

"Bold," the woman said. "You are bold to go running about so, alone, where so many murders have been done." She sounded almost pleased. Egwene drew herself up and straightened her dress hurriedley, hoping the other woman would not notice, knowing she did, wishing the woman had not seen her running like a child. Stop that! "Pardon, but I am looing for a novice who came this way, I think. She has large, dark eyes and dark hair in braids. She's plump, and prety in a way. Did you see which way she went?" The tall woman looked her up and down in an amused way. Egwene could not be sure, but she thought the woman might have glanced a moment at the clenched fist by her side, where she still held the stone ring. "I do not think you will catch up to her. I saw her, and she was running quite fast. I suspect she is far away from here by now." "Aes Sedai," Egwene began, but she was given no chance to ask which way Else had gone. Something that might have been anger, or annoyance flashed through those black eyes. "I have taken up enough time with you for now. I have more improtant maters to see to. Leave me." She gestured back the way Egwene had come. So strong was the command in her voice that Egwene turned and was three steps up the ramp before she realized what she was doing. Bristling, she supn back. Aes Sedai or no, I--

 

The gallery was empty.

 

Coupled with Else's odd behavior with Mat and the Amyrlin's disclosure that Else had been put out of the tower already it seems pretty obvious. What I haven't decided on was if Lanfear was channeling something similar to compulsion to give Egwene the feelings of lessness, and to obey her without thinking (even just subtle compulsion could do that), or if Egwene was just feeling her huge ability to channel and subconsciouly realizing how much more powerful Lanfear is. Remember that Egwene doesn't realize that she can feel another woman's ability (and know what it is) until TSR when she finds out Aviendha can channel.

[Hero of Satsuma]

Thanks Wynne, I knew Else was acting strange, I forgot about the evidence they found leading to Tear.

[icspots]

Thanks Wynne' date=' I knew Else was acting strange, I forgot about the evidence they found leading to Tear.[/quote']

 

Nothing for me? :(

[Hero of Satsuma]

Thanks Wynne' date=' I knew Else was acting strange, I forgot about the evidence they found leading to Tear.[/quote']

 

Nothing for me? :(

 

Thanks to you too, icspots!!

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

Has anyone thought of the possibility that Mesaana is not posing as anyone' date=' just using MoM to hide her true identity?

 

We know that sisters rarely leave their quarters anymore, her strategy of dividing the Ajahs has worked exactly as she has planned. Given that she could roam the Tower undisturbed. When she does encounters sisters or servants she looks vaguely familiar so as not to arouse suspicion yet no one could put a name to her.[/quote']

 

Well, we know she has been directly manipulating the WT in various schemes, which means she has to be talking to people to plant ideas and give direction. Unless you're suggesting that she does all her plotting via correspondence.

 

And if she is not out and about in the Tower scheming, but is staying locked in her room, then what is the point of being the Tower at all? Just take a room at an inn somewhere.

 

So if she is talking to people, she has to be disguised. She doesn't have the ageless look, so if she is AS, that has to be MoM'd (unless she is supposed to be < Accepted or newly raised). As an AS, surely SOMEONE would want to know who she is, though she must have her true channeling strength hidden, otherwise she would DEFINITELY stand out as much stronger than any AS there.

 

The other alterntative is that she's is POSING as a servant or non-channeler, and that would also be considered a disguise.

 

I think she definitely has an alter ego there in the WT, but beyond that, I haven't decided who.