The Seals are broken: When... and then what?

[FallingBullets]

I wonder, can anyone actually see the patern?

[Matrim DeLaneous]

I wonder, can anyone actually see the patern?

 

I believe the Fins (or the Aelfinns anyway) are able to see how the thread of a person's life may be woven in to the Pattern.  Not sure you can say that see the "whole" Pattern however. 

[FallingBullets]

I mean see the pattern around them, or affect the actual pattern with yourself (like the Subtle Knife)

[ROB_88]

we know that the DO needs Rand to go to The Last Battle in order to escape completely.

Either Rand will not be there and the DO wins but can not escape completely.

or the DO must take a risk of making sure that Rand is there where he can either win and close the prison, or if Rand fails than the Lord of the Grave will win completely and escape.

 

i think it will be Rand's blood that does the final strike, it's sort of like the ring in LoTR, depending on certain circumstances it can be used to either set him free or close the Bore again

[Matrim DeLaneous]

we know that the DO needs Rand to go to The Last Battle in order to escape completely.

 

Do we?  I think the evidence would show that unopposed, the DO has been weakening his prison through out the story. Wouldn't all be lost if Rand died before the battle or if he chose to avoid his destiny / prophesy?

 

[ROB_88]

well, i think there is a difference to The DO wins and The DO wins completely.

and the fact that the Bore was open a long time before the war even started in AOL suggest to me that he needs the Dragon to do something in order to escape the prison.

[MikeRiley]

Herid Fel told Rand he would need to "clear the rubble", talking about the bore. When the Wheel turns and people forget all about the Dark One, there will be no bore. So something Rand will do at TG is going to destroy the bore and reseal the Dark One the way he was originally. The Dark One will probably be at his strongest just before that happens and he'll need Rand to do whatever he is going to do in order to break free. We'd see the big fight right at this point, probably.

 

The Dark One's prison needs to be sealed in a way that there is no bore, so that it can be bored into at a later point, the way Lanfear did in the Age of Legends. Think of Lews Therin Telamon's seal as a temporary fix and Rand is just fixing it. A bit of tape on a leaking pipe to hold it until the plumber can come. Not that Lews Therin would have seen it that way.

[Samudor]

What I think is sort of ironic is that if Lews Therin had used both halves of the Choden Kal, the way the female Aes Sedai wanted him to, odds there there would have been no backlash, and the Dark One would have been sealed away. I'm not sure what chance they have now- I doubt Rand can beat the Dark One with only one half of the Choden Kal- once he breaks the seals he will have to have another plan.

[Luckers]

What I think is sort of ironic is that if Lews Therin had used both halves of the Choden Kal, the way the female Aes Sedai wanted him to, odds there there would have been no backlash, and the Dark One would have been sealed away. I'm not sure what chance they have now- I doubt Rand can beat the Dark One with only one half of the Choden Kal- once he breaks the seals he will have to have another plan.

 

Firstly the decision to go against Lews Therin's plan was decided by the Hall of Servants as a whole, not the female Aes Sedai. There was fear that such an attempt would rip the bore open further. As such a second plan was suggested, to use the Choedan Kal to cast a shield over the bore. Never did anyone suggest the use of the Choedan Kal to fulfil Lews Therin's plans--or indeed did Lews Therin use ANY of the Choedan Kal, male or female, to enact his plan.

 

In the end the Access Keys to the Choedan Kal were lost, and when Latra Posae Decume had the female Aes Sedai refuse to join Lews Therin he acted without them.

[Jyxxer]

I've often wondered why the Forsaken were so hesitant to kill him, that there was some master plan they have been trying to weave into the pattern, and that makes a lot of sense, because it was obvious there wasn't going to be a way to turn him to the shadow a long time ago.  Whatever he needs to do needs to match the work of the Creator.  I think that somehow with what Elayne and Egwene have learned they might be able to construct something to match the female half of Choden Kal that was broken, so they can use both halves of the True Source this time, and it won't be the males wielding Saidin alone.

[ROB_88]

i just read in The Fires of Heaven chapter 6, Rand states that the statue had not been completed until after the Dark Ones prison had been resealed,and then been hidden away from the mad male Aes Sedai.

then he asks himself how he knows it which indicates it's a LTT memory.

 

that means that the Choedan Kal was never even ready to be used at all.

[Matrim DeLaneous]

So something Rand will do at TG is going to destroy the bore and reseal the Dark One the way he was originally. The Dark One will probably be at his strongest just before that happens and he'll need Rand to do whatever he is going to do in order to break free. We'd see the big fight right at this point, probably.

But, the DO wasn't able to "break free" during the 110 years after it was originally made, how will it be different when the seals are broken?

 

The Dark One's prison needs to be sealed in a way that there is no bore, so that it can be bored into at a later point, the way Lanfear did in the Age of Legends. Think of Lews Therin Telamon's seal as a temporary fix and Rand is just fixing it. A bit of tape on a leaking pipe to hold it until the plumber can come. Not that Lews Therin would have seen it that way.

As indicated earlier, I think it's risky to speculate that Rand & Company will actually fix the bore.  Makes me think of the prologue to the EOTW where Ishy mockingly criticizes a mad LTT for trying to do what only the Creator can do. I can't help but think that Rand / LTT and others are only human, and the DO's prison was made by the Creator.

 

I appreciate and agree with the idea that the Wheel will eventually turn back to the point where there was not a bore and the DO's prison is whole.  Anyway, given the logic above, is it really feasible to believe that there will be a mirraculous, almost immediate return to the peace and tranquility of the AOL's after TG?  All evil, all darkfrieds, all the DO's influence will be completely eliminated in one fell swoop?  No "cleanup" effort will be required?

[Sab]

The DO can't break free on his own and In the BWB it states "Eventually those loyal to the DO felt themselves strong enough to act.  In a swift strike they made an attempt to free the DO completely and take control."  So I think as long as seals are in place the DO forces can't free him either.  If they could I would assume the Forsaken would be blasting away at the bore right now.  Which is IMO the main reason why Rand must fight him.  To prevent them from freeing him completely. If Rand fails and even if the DO can't get completly out the DO could touch the world enough to where everyone would be pretty screwed any way. 

[MikeRiley]

 

As indicated earlier, I think it's risky to speculate that Rand & Company will actually fix the bore.  Makes me think of the prologue to the EOTW where Ishy mockingly criticizes a mad LTT for trying to do what only the Creator can do. I can't help but think that Rand / LTT and others are only human, and the DO's prison was made by the Creator.

 

I appreciate and agree with the idea that the Wheel will eventually turn back to the point where there was not a bore and the DO's prison is whole.  Anyway, given the logic above, is it really feasible to believe that there will be a mirraculous, almost immediate return to the peace and tranquility of the AOL's after TG?  All evil, all darkfrieds, all the DO's influence will be completely eliminated in one fell swoop?  No "cleanup" effort will be required?

 

Ishmael is also getting mad at himself at one point playing a game based on his and Rand's ancient battle. He can't figure who the Fisher is and why he appears the way he does. So while he knows more than Lews Therin did, he doesn't know everything. In his lifetime the Dark One's prison was bored into and that was the first he would have heard of him. So naturally he (and the Dragon) would have thought the Creator formed the prison.

 

The remaining forsaken would still be left roaming around as would the Seanchan, the trollocs and so on. Over time? There would be peace. Some long time later people wouldn't even remember the Dark One or war and people will bore into his prison. Right after the Dark One is sealed away again there would still be wars all over the world. It might even last for generations.

[Jyxxer]

As indicated earlier, I think it's risky to speculate that Rand & Company will actually fix the bore.  Makes me think of the prologue to the EOTW where Ishy mockingly criticizes a mad LTT for trying to do what only the Creator can do. I can't help but think that Rand / LTT and others are only human, and the DO's prison was made by the Creator.

 

No one back then even dreamed of cleansing saidin either.  That's why this Age is so special.  The Dragon has been Reborn, and he will find away to learn from his mistakes in his previous life.  I think Ishy talks about LTT trying to match the Creator as more of a mockery, or taunting gesture.  We know that a temporary seal isn't going to fix it, he will have to match the Creator's work if he is going to win Tarmon Gaidon.

 

So whether it is LTT or Rand, its obvious they need the Dragon to do something in order for Shai'tan to re-create the Pattern in his image, or one of them would have been balefired long ago.

[Matrim DeLaneous]

No one back then even dreamed of cleansing saidin either.  That's why this Age is so special.

However, the Taint is derived from the DO - not the Creator!  In addition, there's a great deal of evidence to support the idea that strenghth in the Power and what could be done with the Power was much greater in the AOL's vs the 3rd Age.   

 

I think Ishy talks about LTT trying to match the Creator as more of a mockery, or taunting gesture.

Quite possible 

 

We know that a temporary seal isn't going to fix it...

Agreed, not if the Wheel is destined to return to the pt where the Bore is no more.

 

he will have to match the Creator's work if he is going to win Tarmon Gaidon.

As indicated in my earlier post... I'm not sure this is necessarily true.  I think the evidence would suggest that a head to head with the DO and an attempt to fix or play with directly with the Prison is doomed to fail.  Wouldn't it be more likely / possible for Rand & the other 2 ta'veren to try and erradicate the DO's minions and eliminate as many dark threads from the Pattern as possible during TG?  Then, presuming the Pattern is in fact the Prison, it'll be stronger, as if the bore never was? 

 

So whether it is LTT or Rand, its obvious they need the Dragon to do something in order for Shai'tan to re-create the Pattern in his image

Not sure this is what was meant?

 

...or one of them would have been balefired long ago.

 

Many have already tried to balefire Rand and failed... (i.e. Rhavin)

[Jyxxer]

As indicated in my earlier post... I'm not sure this is necessarily true.  I think the evidence would suggest that a head to head with the DO and an attempt to fix or play with directly with the Prison is doomed to fail.  Wouldn't it be more likely / possible for Rand & the other 2 ta'veren to try and erradicate the DO's minions and eliminate as many dark threads from the Pattern as possible during TG?  Then, presuming the Pattern is in fact the Prison, it'll be stronger, as if the bore never was?

I don't think an attempt on his prison is doom to fail at all.  I think it only failed was because saidin and saidar weren't used together.  I also think that's the only reason works with the Power in the Age of Legends are believed to be better than what is capable now.  Not because they were sheerly stronger or more talented, just more practiced.  That's an interesting take on the Pattern being the prison, but I don't think 'dark threads' are weakening the pattern itself.  If you don't seal the DO back off completely, he'll always be whispering, and touching this world, so I think it'd be damn near impossible to completely cleanse the Pattern that way.  Yeah... I don't see taking up the Whitecloak's mission of rooting out darkfriends to be anything equivalent to the seals on his prison.

 

Not sure this is what was meant?

What I was referring to was the EotW prologue when Ishy makes Lew Therin sane, long enough to rub it in his face that he may have stopped the DO for now, but he has not won yet.  If his thread was the ancient enemy to the Dark One, it would seem to me to simply balefire his thread so he can't be reborn, and be done with it.  I could never figure out why that hasn't happened yet, and the more I read these forums, the more it seems obvious, that Rand has to live to see Tarmon Gaidon.  This is an equal goal by both the Shadow and the Light now.  Because he needs to mess with the prison, thus either sealing the DO off completely, or breaking him free and remaking the pattern.

 

Many have already tried to balefire Rand and failed... (i.e. Rhavin)

Rahvin was simply a coward trying to save his own skin.  I think if he had succeeded, his fellow Chosen wouldn't be too happy.

 

However, the Taint is derived from the DO - not the Creator!...

Not sure what this meant?

[Matrim DeLaneous]

Not sure what this meant?

One of my earlier points is that there is evidence to believe that Rand / The Dragon (humans) can't fix what the Creator created - the prison.  My point was that Rand's cleansing of Saidin doesn't dispute this as the taint is a construct of the DO. 

[MikeRiley]

No one back then even dreamed of cleansing saidin either.  That's why this Age is so special.

However, the Taint is derived from the DO - not the Creator!  In addition, there's a great deal of evidence to support the idea that strenghth in the Power and what could be done with the Power was much greater in the AOL's vs the 3rd Age.   

 

I don't think it was possible to cleanse Saidin in the Age of Legends. Rand stumbled on a possible way purely based on the feelings of his wounds in his side and how channeling felt in Shadar Logoth. Shadar Logoth's separate evil was required to cleanse Saidin and that evil didn't exist in the Age of Legends.

[Telzen]

Just to point out, RJ once said that if the females had went along with LTT's plan, then both halves of the power would have been tainted. I agree on the saidin thing. I think the pattern wove Shadar Logoth into existance for the sole purpose that Rand could use it to clense saidin later on.

[Sab]

Just to point out, RJ once said that if the females had went along with LTT's plan, then both halves of the power would have been tainted. I agree on the saidin thing. I think the pattern wove Shadar Logoth into existance for the sole purpose that Rand could use it to clense saidin later on.

 

I am sure all the people who died there would love to know that.  Makes one feel good knowing their horrible painful death will someday help saidin be cleansed.

[Mr Ares]

Just to point out, RJ once said that if the females had went along with LTT's plan, then both halves of the power would have been tainted.

Provide a quote.

[ROB_88]

Just to point out, RJ once said that if the females had went along with LTT's plan, then both halves of the power would have been tainted. I agree on the saidin thing. I think the pattern wove Shadar Logoth into existance for the sole purpose that Rand could use it to clense saidin later on.

 

it's probable. after all it did weave out the water-sharing, avendesora-cutting and Aiel war and probably the forming of Dragonmount itself just so Rand could be born on it