Are the Aelfinn/Eelfinn part of the pattern?

[Dunderdan]

This is a question thats been bugging me for some time. Are the Aelfinn/Eelfinn part of the pattern or not?

 

If they are part of the pattern, there are certain limits to what can happen in there and to what they can do.

 

If they are NOT part of the pattern, the pattern is diminished immensely imo, shrinking it from infinite to finite. At least Ive always thought of the pattern as something covering all the world forever.

 

Im a little worried that this side feature, which the Aelfinn/Eelfinn are, is used as a means to let things happen that wouldnt be possible in the "normal" world. Continuity and logic in stories are important to me and thus Id like to get a better understanding about the Finns. Please help :)

 

Cheers

dd

 

[FallingBullets]

maybe the *finn's are inside the pattern being controlled/advised by an external entity.... such as maybe the creator?, maybe they are even "for hire" LOL

 

FB

[Majsju]

Do not confuse the realm of the finns with the worlds that can be accessed by portal stones.

 

The portal stones can only take you to mirror worlds, which is something completely different from parallell worlds. The Ogier and the Seanchan beasties came from mirror worlds.

 

The finns on the other hand live in a parallell world.

They have souls, which means they are a part of the pattern. Also, they have no relation to T'A'R.

[mb]

"Parallel world" to me would be the wrong term.  I think "alternate dimension" would be more accurate.

 

The Aelfinn answer 3 questions the person asks; each answer true.

The Eelfinn give 3 things the person requests; the things given after a price is paid.

Both collect memories of their visitors.

 

The reason "alternate dimension" seems more accurate to me is because they are able to like watch the whole life of their visitors.

Parallel world to me implies merely existing somewhere else.

 

 

Though I agree that they have souls and are thus part of the Pattern.

 

[CUBAREY]

He would applaud the sentiment, don't get me wrong, but he will still say the act is wrong.

 

 

The Finns' et al. are definately part of the pattern. Think about it without them how could Mat have forefilled the prophecies or viewings of him?

[Majsju]

Mb, parallell world is the definition RJ used.

[Dunderdan]

What a lovely source of information this site is, thank you all for you intelligent replies. :)

 

I vaguely remember the reason I started thinking about this. I think somewhere along the line of the story, you start to get information about how the pattern will change and interfere things. When reading about Aelfinn/Eelfinn actions, you get the impression that they are unaffected by the pattern. But that shouldnt be the case. I started to wonder about how the pattern affect Aelfinn/Eelfinn. And also; if Rand loses in TG, wouldnt Aelfinn/Eelfinn be struck by the effects too? Isnt DO attacking the very pattern itself?

 

It seems like, if its what GrandpaG says, the TG battle has impact on a lot more worlds and dimensions; Randland is but a small part of it. Why then arent everyone else taking part in this epic battle?

 

But I dont need an answer to that. Its totally ok if its kept shadowed. What I do worry about is that the Aelfinn/Eelfinn events, that will undoubtly happen in aMoL, will be taken too lightly, revealing too much, creating contradictions or anomalies somewhere along the logic chain. Id much rather not get any more information about them at all, than have it too much displayed in the open, making it vulnerable for a critical examination.

 

[FallingBullets]

maybe each world is like a sheet in a 3d tapestry, which is constructing prison around the DO, and only on this sheet is there a bore, on other worlds patterns are free of the bore, purely light, and on some the bore is more open, or bigger, or totally overrun by the DO

[CUBAREY]

on other worlds patterns are free of the bore, purely light, and on some the bore is more open, or bigger, or totally overrun by the DO

 

We are told that if the Do ever wins in any "world" or dimension he wins in all.  So the DO has not at least up to the time the story takes place ever totally won (been freed from his prison) in any "world" or dimension.

[ROB_88]

on other worlds patterns are free of the bore, purely light, and on some the bore is more open, or bigger, or totally overrun by the DO

 

We are told that if the Do ever wins in any "world" or dimension he wins in all.  So the DO has not at least up to the time the story takes place ever totally won (been freed from his prison) in any "world" or dimension.

 

it is also said, that if he's trapped in one world he is trapped in all. and if he is free in one world he is free in all

[FallingBullets]

well that killed my little theory then didnt it... pitty, would have been interesting

[motblades]

The Aelfinn answer 3 questions the person asks; each answer true.

The Eelfinn give 3 things the person requests; the things given after a price is paid.

Both collect memories of their visitors.

 

Actually, only the Aelfinn collect memories.  If you remember, one of Mat's wishes to the Eelfinn was to fill the holes in his memories.  The memories taken by the Aelfinn were their price for the questions asked. 

 

This does bring up a good point.  Why was Mat the only one with missing memories?  Rand and Morraine visited the Aelfinn and neither one of them had missing memories that we know of.  Could the reason be because Mat was the only that could not channel?

[Majsju]

The Aelfinn answer 3 questions the person asks; each answer true.

The Eelfinn give 3 things the person requests; the things given after a price is paid.

Both collect memories of their visitors.

 

Actually, only the Aelfinn collect memories.  If you remember, one of Mat's wishes to the Eelfinn was to fill the holes in his memories.  The memories taken by the Aelfinn were their price for the questions asked. 

 

This does bring up a good point.  Why was Mat the only one with missing memories?  Rand and Morraine visited the Aelfinn and neither one of them had missing memories that we know of.  Could the reason be because Mat was the only that could not channel?

 

Uhm...

The Aelfinn does not collect memories, what they do is "feeding" on sensations.

The ones collecting "memories" are the Eelfinn, only, it is more than memories, they also collect experiences taking place after the actual visit to them. Mats ponderings in KOD gives some good insights on this.

 

Mats loss of memories was a result of the SL dagger he carried with him for quite some time.

[General Cauthon]

Uhm...

The Aelfinn does not collect memories, what they do is "feeding" on sensations.

The ones collecting "memories" are the Eelfinn, only, it is more than memories, they also collect experiences taking place after the actual visit to them. Mats ponderings in KOD gives some good insights on this.

 

I thought it was the Aelfinn that "recorded" the experiences taking place after the visit to them. After all, the doorway to reach the Eelfinn has been in Rhuidean since the Breaking, there's no way the people Mat got his memories from ever where allowed within sight of Rhuidean.

 

Collecting memories and experiences is the price the Aelfinn demands to answer three questions. This was probably common knowledge for those who used in AOL. With the Eelfinn however, you have to negotiate the price yourself, which can be dangerous, as Mat found out.

[Majsju]

 

I thought it was the Aelfinn that "recorded" the experiences taking place after the visit to them. After all, the doorway to reach the Eelfinn has been in Rhuidean since the Breaking, there's no way the people Mat got his memories from ever where allowed within sight of Rhuidean.

 

They could, and did however enter through the Tower of Ghenjei, which was far more common knowledge back in the days.

And it is quite easy to see that we are not talkimg about simply "rocording" experiences. Look at something that often pops up in Mats memories - Dying. Normally, people do not remember events that has not taken place yet. On the other hand, he never has any memories of being a child anywhere. Ie, the memories he has, are memories taken after these people visited the finns.

The Eelfinn on the other hand, the ones you make a deal with. They have the ability to somehow see through these peoples eyes, hear through their ears. As Mat thinks a good deal about in KOD.

 

Collecting memories and experiences is the price the Aelfinn demands to answer three questions. This was probably common knowledge for those who used in AOL. With the Eelfinn however, you have to negotiate the price yourself, which can be dangerous, as Mat found out.

 

When Moiraine talks about the Aelfinn, she says that they are rummaging through sensations, emotions and experiences, possibly feeding on them somehow. What she does not list is memories. Because that is the Elfinn who collects those.

Given the number of memories in Mats head, it seems that setting up a "livefeed" was a normal part of the deal. Which is why Mat is so afraid that the Eelfinn is seeing and hearing what he is up to.

[FallingBullets]

I wonder if any memories from AoL and before are with the *fins?

[General Cauthon]

And it is quite easy to see that we are not talkimg about simply "rocording" experiences. Look at something that often pops up in Mats memories - Dying. Normally, people do not remember events that has not taken place yet. On the other hand, he never has any memories of being a child anywhere. Ie, the memories he has, are memories taken after these people visited the finns.

 

I agree, what I meant was that they "record" everything the person experience from the moment he visits. I'm sorry, I should've made myself clearer.

 

The Eelfinn on the other hand, the ones you make a deal with. They have the ability to somehow see through these peoples eyes, hear through their ears. As Mat thinks a good deal about in KOD.quote]

 

When Moiraine talks about the Aelfinn, she says that they are rummaging through sensations, emotions and experiences, possibly feeding on them somehow. What she does not list is memories. Because that is the Elfinn who collects those.

Given the number of memories in Mats head, it seems that setting up a "livefeed" was a normal part of the deal. Which is why Mat is so afraid that the Eelfinn is seeing and hearing what he is up to.

 

I believe that what Moiraine describes is the Aelfinn starting their "recording". That's their price for three answers. The Eelfinn on the other hand, doesn't seem to have a standard price, but negotiate with the different individuals.

 

If the Eelfinn takes both coming experiences, and negotiate about an additional price, then a visit to the Aelfinn comes off as a "bargain price" to me.

 

That Mat thinks that it's the Eelfinn that collected his new memories is because they gave them to him. I believe that the Eelfinn got those memories from the Aelfinn.

 

They could, and did however enter through the Tower of Ghenjei, which was far more common knowledge back in the days.

 

I just don't buy it! That hundreds, if not thousands of men went through the Tower of Ghenjei to visit the Eelfinn. The history would have told us about atleast some of those guys, since they came back with three wishes granted. (a bottle of wine that never gets empty, a purse with gold that never gets empty, and so on)

None of Mat's new memories suggest that they had received any "gifts", like Mat himself. (Ashandrei, medallion).

 

I may be wrong, after all I have no proof, but I'm convinced until I see any proof that I'm wrong. Perhaps we'll see in aMoL, when Mat saves Moiraine...

[Majsju]

Week 12 Question: You stated in another interview that Mat's memories came from adventurers who traveled through the ter'angreal. However several of Mat's memories end with the adventurer dying. Since adventurers probably didn't go through the ter'angreal after they died, how could the 'Finns have obtained these memories?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: A good question. I was wondering when someone would ask that. I expected it as soon as Mat started revealing those old memories. At least a partial answer will be coming up in the next main sequence book, so I guess you could say this is a RAFO. But I will say that if I said those adventurers all entered through the two ter'angreal, I misspoke. A good many entered through the Tower of Ghenjei, which was more widely known in earlier years, if never exactly a household name.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

 

Seems that you have to buy it ;D

[bubby]

Has anyone done any comparing between Min and the finn yet?  Min looks at the auras around the people she sees, images floating around their heads.  The finn (which ever finns, can't remember which name goes with which) look above the questioners head before answering.

 

If min is a novice, and they are experts, might explain why min is, on occassion, having "if" readings now, is that a sign she is getting better?

 

And if the finn(again, can't remember which name) live in a differnt world, dreamwalksers go to a differnt world to see thier "true" dreams, and all kinds of ter'angreal take people to otherworlds that are similar to the main world but with different and often revealing events, then how could that relate to what min does and what fortellers do? if it does at all

 

Does anyone know if the finns' name mean anything in the old tongue?

[CUBAREY]

The history would have told us about atleast some of those guys, since they came back with three wishes granted. (a bottle of wine that never gets empty, a purse with gold that never gets empty, and so on)

None of Mat's new memories suggest that they had received any "gifts", like Mat himself. (Ashandrei, medallion).

 

First remember that Moirraine warned in the 4th book that frivolous questions/requests could lead to dire consequences. So asking for a purse with gold that never gets empty, a bottle of wine that never gets empty, might very well of been dealt rather harshly.

 

Second Mat's memories have dealt either with specific military knowledge or knowledge of the civilizations that the persons who lived the memories would have had and not a lot about the person's internal thonking processes. Thus that we have not learned about "gifts" which those persons may have possessed is not surprising.

 

If min is a novice, and they are experts, might explain why min is, on occassion, having "if" readings now, is that a sign she is getting better?

 

Or that her powers are growing. At first she only had visions of things that would definately happen, now as her experience and power grows she is additionally is having visions of things that might happen.

 

Finns/Alfinn(sp) might mean "sanke and foxes" in the old tongue. ;)

 

 

[Majsju]

First remember that Moirraine warned in the 4th book that frivolous questions/requests could lead to dire consequences. So asking for a purse with gold that never gets empty, a bottle of wine that never gets empty, might very well of been dealt rather harshly.

 

 

Well, Moiraine are talking about the Aelfinn, where you get your three questions without having to make any kind of bargain. It should be a bit different with the Eelfinn.

However, the kind of people who did enter the Tower of Ghenjei back in the days when people actually knew about the Eelfinn would probably not have been the kind who would bargain for a never-ending wine bottle, or similar kind of stuff...(And of course, the Eelfinn are not genies, they can not just snap their fingers and the "wish" automatically gets granted.)

[Dunderdan]

Has anyone done any comparing between Min and the finn yet?  Min looks at the auras around the people she sees, images floating around their heads.  The finn (which ever finns, can't remember which name goes with which) look above the questioners head before answering.

 

If min is a novice, and they are experts, might explain why min is, on occassion, having "if" readings now, is that a sign she is getting better?

 

And if the finn(again, can't remember which name) live in a differnt world, dreamwalksers go to a differnt world to see thier "true" dreams, and all kinds of ter'angreal take people to otherworlds that are similar to the main world but with different and often revealing events, then how could that relate to what min does and what fortellers do? if it does at all

 

This is a very nice, interesting connection youre making. I havent thought about it myself. It also shows that the Finns are possible more integrated into the main story than I thought. Foretellers and Dreamwalkers... Certainly food for thought; Ill give that connection some more thought. Cheers!

 

 

[ROB_88]

though, i think it has been said numerous times that Min is not a finn

[Luckers]

Do not confuse the realm of the finns with the worlds that can be accessed by portal stones.

 

The portal stones can only take you to mirror worlds, which is something completely different from parallell worlds. The Ogier and the Seanchan beasties came from mirror worlds.

 

The finns on the other hand live in a parallell world.

They have souls, which means they are a part of the pattern. Also, they have no relation to T'A'R.

 

This distinction is interesting--within the story the phrase 'mirror worlds' is used, but in terms of the question its not so clear--RJ was asked if the Finns came from a perpindicular world or a parallel world--as per Verin's description in The Dragon Reborn. In that description she says that the worlds that run along side--the parallel worlds, by math--are the worlds reached by the Portal Stones. Perpindicular worlds were the only other option she offered, worlds bisecting the pattern.

 

Effectively, RJ stated that the Finns came from a parallel world--a world such as what Verin described as being accessed by the Portal Stones. Now it is clear that both the Finn and the Ogier come from worlds so far diverged from the 'real' world that they cannot be termed mirror worlds, yet to say that mirror worlds and parallel worlds are different seems--unsupported.

 

That may be picking too fine at the apple--im just curious to your thoughts. Myself, i have a pet theory that there are 'core' parallel worlds, worlds that act like the trunk, from which branches stem. Perhaps under your distinction it might be said that those branches are the mirror worlds, the worlds that arn't real, and it is the core worlds that are real. In which case that means the pattern represents entire universes moving distinct of each other. RJ as always scares me. Lol.

[Mr Ares]

Has anyone done any comparing between Min and the finn yet?

Week 1 Question: Also, is there any relation between what the Aelfinn do and Min's ability?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: No, there is no connection between what the Aelfinn do and what Min does.

Is that of any use to you?