Real Life Myths and WoT

[Leopoled Boothe]

U

nfortunately, there are so many different stories featuring the many different versions of Morgan le Fay, it's hard to say which is which.

 

Yes, but I think that is RJ's point exactly, these stories are so old and have been retold so many times that the facts have gotten jumbled up.  Moreover, I don't think any of the parallels between RJ's characters and mythical characters are exactly one to one.  For example both Rand al'Thor and Artur Pendrag/Hawkwing seem to have attributes of King Arthur.  Moreover, Rand has attributes not only of Arthur but also of Tyr and Jupiter as well a other mythical characters I'm sure.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Uther Pendragon

Arthur Pendragon = Artur Paendrag? Uther Pendragon = Luthair Paendrag?

Clearly.

 

That was one I missed.

 

Perhaps then that would make Gawyn, the Lancelot character.

Possibly, I mean, there's no reason at all why one character couldn't have elements of more than one.

 

However, in terms of Gawyn=Gawain

 

1. The name.

2. The whole chasing down the mothers killer.

3. Morgause is Gawains mother.

 

I don't really see a Lancelot in WoT...

 

Though, I guess Egwene (Guinevere) could count .... Gawyn looks set to end up with her.

And given the previous relationship between Thom and Morgase then wouldn't that make her the Morganan (sp!) reference who if I remember my Arthur correctly was Merlin's lover and student at one point?

But Morgase fits with Morgause already, maybe. I saw Moiraine as Morganan / Morgan Le Fey (her other name was close to Moiraine) ... that'd fit with the Merlin (Thom) link too.

To be honest, I don't think we'd see the Arthur-WoT connections as prominent in the books as to be able to predict what will happen in the last books.

Why not?

 

If you'd seen the connection in book one, you could have used it as a guide to a couple of things, e.g. Tear and Callandor.

 

The boat with the women on it. = Arthurian, in the last book, and confirmed by RJ via Min.

 

Why is too much of a stretch to think other things might happen?

 

A guess at Camelyn (Caamlan) being the site of a major battle between Moridin and Rand is as good as any...

 

Besides, it's all a bit of fun.

 

Using the myths as a source, in tandem with events and motivations in the books might give hints. Why not?

 

e.g. Fixing Callandor.

Aurthurian legends would suggest that the Lady of the Lake fixed Excalibur.

 

Now, Elayne = Lady of the Lake, Excalibur = Callandor. (See first page)

 

Elayne works with angreals...

 

It's not a massive jump.

 

Neither are the other "thoughts" I posted.

I can't really see the connection between Morgan le Fay and Morgase, apart from a slight similarity in name.

I don't think there is. Morgase = Morgause.

Whatever the version, if it contains Morgan le Fay (or Morgana, Morgaine, Morgane, Morgain, whatever you wish), she's a powerful witch or sorceress and pretty damn scary as well. 

 

So if there is any Morgan le Fay in the books I'd say it's Moiraine, since she is considered rather powerful and pretty damn scary at some times.

Next to that, though I haven't read it in years so I'm not absolutely certain, Morgaine in "Mists of Avalon" by Marion Zimmer Bradley has a reputation quite similar to the reputation Moraine has in Eye of the World.

I saw Moiraine as Morgan le Fay

 

Because, depending on the version, she's also a healer who often helps Arthur. Ad, there's a version of her name which is very similar.

Another reason to connect Morgan to Moiraine instead of Morgase would be that Morgan was important at Arthur's healing when he is taken to Avalon, like Moiraine is seemingly important to keep Rand alive.

And then there's the "sisters" of Avalon point.

 

Sisters= Aes Sedai.

Avalon = Tar Valon

 

Moiraine=Morgan le Fay isn't a massive leap.

Unfortunately, there are so many different stories featuring the many different versions of Morgan le Fay, it's hard to say which is which.

Sure, there might be a debate about Morgan Le Fay. But, RJs Morgase is pretty clearly Morgause of Arthurian legend.

Yes, but I think that is RJ's point exactly, these stories are so old and have been retold so many times that the facts have gotten jumbled up.  Moreover, I don't think any of the parallels between RJ's characters and mythical characters are exactly one to one.

I don't think anyone's claiming they're one-to-one. Personally, I'd be disappointed if they were.

 

RJ gave himself a great resource by inventing the whole wheel concept. He can essentially borrow elements of mythological characters and add to them. Of course, a straight up copy'd be a little dull.

For example both Rand al'Thor and Artur Pendrag/Hawkwing seem to have attributes of King Arthur.  Moreover, Rand has attributes not only of Arthur but also of Tyr and Jupiter as well a other mythical characters I'm sure.

There are.

 

At the bottom of the first post I invited others to post a myth for comparison.

 

Only Majusu did so with the Norse gods...

 

Feel free to chip in.

 

This is all supposed to be mildly entertaining ... and a way to think about something other than the possible links between Bela and the death of Asomedean and / or Herid Fel.  ::)

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Yeah I always figured Artur Paendrag / Hawkwing was King Arthur.

Sure, but "Arthur" comes from "Uther" directly.

 

To clarify: Arthur is the modern English spelling of the old English Uther.

 

Pendragon and Paendrag aren't too much of a leap either.

 

And then you get the clear connections between Rand and Arthur's stories.

[Leopoled Boothe]

At the bottom of the first post I invited others to post a myth for comparison.

 

Ok, I'll bite.  I've noticed a possible connection between Babylonian mythology and WOT.  It begins with the Babylonian storm goddess Ninlil who was known for having a short temper.    Ninlil was the inspiration for the Cannanite demoness Lilith, who was later adopted into Hebrew myth as the first wife of Adam.   As the Hebrew myth goes God made both Adam and Lilith , the first man and woman, from the clay of the Earth and while He assigned Adam dominance over the woman Lilith protested stating that because she was made of the same substance as Adam that she should be his equal (her specific sin was wanting to be on top during sex).  This angered God greatly and so he turned Lilith into a sucubus and banished her from Eden.  He then took a rib from Adam's own body and fashioned him a new wife.  Eve came form Adam's body and therefore she could make no case against her subserviance to him, not the the docile and downright ditzy Eve would ever have entertained such a notion.  And the Eve of Hebrew legend was a ditz, Hebrew legend contains many more stories about Adam and Eve than we find in Genesis and most of them involve the couple earning chances to be readmitted in to Eden and Eve blowing it for them every time. But I digress.

 

So anyway what to we know of Ninlil/Lilith

 

1. She had a aptitude for storms

2. She believed herself to be equal to if not superior to any man

3. She had a bad temper

 

Remind you of a certain village Wisdom turned Yellow Sister?

 

So what are the connections?

 

Ninlil is a storm goddess and Nynaeve can predict storms, both literal and figurative.  Moreover Nynaeve was heavily involved in finding and using the Bowl of the Winds thus giving her further connections to the weather.

Like Lilith, Nyneave believes herself to be equal to any man

Lilith was turned into as sucubus, a creature which torments men.  And lets face it, Nynaeve does tend to torment men.

And of course a similarity in name beween Ninlil and Nynaeve.

 

Interestingly, the name Nynaeve is kind of a combination of Ninlil and Eve thus leading me to wonder if RJ has somehow combined Adam's two wives into one character.  So what does Nynaeve have in common with Eve?

 

The short answer is, not much.

 

The long answer is that it may have something to do with the conditions of her marriage to Lan.  In public she is his superior and can be the dominate Lilith.  However, in private she must be subserviant to her husband and therefore must be the docile Eve.  So in a manner of speaking Lan is married to both a Lilith and an Eve.   Moreover, Eve is know as the mother of all and Nynaeve is kind of motherly in her own way.  Nynaeve feels that it is her responsibility to look out for anyone from the Two Rivers as well a a few adoptees such as Elayne and Min.  So in her way Nynaeve dose kind of act as the mother of all.   And last but not least is is possible that Nynaeve will become the mother of the a new Makiar.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

I've updated the first post with:

 

Uther Pendrag = General background

Arthur Pendrag = Hawkwing (?)

Guinevere = Egwene Al'Vere

And some other bits and pieces.

Ninlil is a storm goddess and Nynaeve can predict storms, both literal and figurative.  Moreover Nynaeve was heavily involved in finding and using the Bowl of the Winds thus giving her further connections to the weather.

Like Lilith, Nyneave believes herself to be equal to any man

Lilith was turned into as sucubus, a creature which torments men.  And lets face it, Nynaeve does tend to torment men.

And of course a similarity in name beween Ninlil and Nynaeve.

Hmmmm.

 

Interesting. I don't know enough about Babylonian or Sumerian mythology to really comment.

 

However, the storm/weather link certainly makes a good case, as does Nynaeves attitude toward men / her forceful personality.

 

It does amaze me that RJ might have taken the name Nynaeve, and linked it to a series of different myths. I mean, sure, taking elements of a lot of myths and putting them into a character/plot line is fairly straightforward, but doing that, choosing the name, adding the bits and pieces from all over the place, and still coming out with a viable character? That takes some doing.

 

Clever, very clever.

[Ndshacker]

Is it just me or did RJ draw a lot from the Norse.

 

There are way too many to list, but if you look up 'Loki', 'Thor', and 'Odin'. On Wikipedia you should see a few things that catch your eyes.

 

The few prominent links are ....

Loki and Mat will do good, but must be "forced" into it.

Odin and Mat both have one eye!!! and they are both closely related to Raven/ Spear.

Odin and mat both use trickery to achieve their goals.

Odin and Perrin are closely related to "shape shifting" into animals/ talking to them.

Odin and Rand both wear disguises as a wanderer/ beggar at one point in time.

 

 

[Hybrid]

Odin and Mat both have one eye!!! and they are both closely related to Raven/ Spear.

Odin and mat both use trickery to achieve their goals.

Odin and Mat have many links, including one eye, hanging from a tree to gain knowledge, and the idea of the ravens Thought and Memory (see the inscription on the ashandarei).  I believe RJ stated somewhere the ideas he drew from Norse mythology, but I'm too lazy to find it right now.  :P

[CatinaSedai]

jordan has studied a lot of history and has entwined it with the wheel of time.  i like how he has used the differences with each culture and how they relate to a cultere here on earth.

[lordofsoup]

for the norse mythology u are forgetting the fast that one of loki's children I think was an enormous snake that surrounded the world and lived in the oceans.  In the last battle of norse mythology, the snake is killed by one of the gods, thor, and odin and the wolf kill each other at the end of Norse mythology everything is dead, except Baldor, who is reincarnated earlier, and a few of the minor gods survive and go on to start the world anew

[Ndshacker]

I said to look it up, that there were too many to list...

[Fjong]

Actualley most of the Asgards are shapeshift into animals, espically Loki, who shapeshifts into: A horse, a fish and a bird jsut to mention a few.

But i love the way RJ is mixing those old myths into his story, btw does anyone know a good book/site where i can read about King Artur (im a dane so i know very little about the legend about king Artur)???

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Here’s the Arthurian Page from the LinuxMafia pages:

http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/3_sources/3.05_king-arthur.html

3.05: Arthurian Legend

________________________________________

Arthurian Names:

• Amyrlin: Merlin/Myrddin, Arthur's chief advisor/magician, etc.

• Moiraine: Morgaine/Morgan Le Fay

• Morgase: Morgause

• Tigraine: Ygrainne, King Arthur's mother, seduced by Uther Pendragon with Merlin's aid.

• Egwene al'Vere: Guenever/Guinevere

• Artur Paendrag: Arthur Pendragon

• Callandor: Excalibur, the sword in the stone

• Galad: Galahad the Pure

• Gawyn: Gawain

• Green Man: Green Knight or Green Man

• Sa'angreal: San Greal (Holy Grail). An alternate spelling, Sang Real, translates to "holy or royal blood" [Robert Mee].

• Nynaeve: Nyneve/Vivian: who was Merlin's lover and cause of his imprisonment in the enchanted cave in Cornwall.

• Perrin: Perceval?

• Merrilin: Merlin again (advisor to a Queen).

• Lan: Launcelot?

• Damodred/Demandred: Mordred? Mordred was Arthur's bastard son by his aunt Morgawse, and his slayer.

• Elayne: Elayne/Elaine: The first Elayne is sister to Queens Morgawse and Ygrainne (King Arthur's mother). Another version of Arthurian legends (not Malory) asserts that she is one of the three women in Arthur's funeral boat to Avalon... The second Elaine is Sir Galahad's mother, by Sir Launcelot.

• Luthair Paendrag: Uther Pendragon (Now Artur's son, instead of his father)

• Tar Valon: Avalon

• Caemlyn: Camlaan (where Arthur fought his final battle against Mordred) or Camelot.

• Elyas, Aram, Demandred, Bors: All the same as or similar to names of Arthurian knights.

 

Min's vision of Rand's funeral bier: In the Arthurian legend (or at least the version I've read) Arthur is severely wounded and on his deathbed. Bedivere witnesses his being taken away on a funeral boat and ferried to Avalon to await the time when he is needed again. The only others on the ship are three women: 1) Arthur's half-sister Morgan Le Fay (the sorceress) 2) The Queen of North Galys 3) The Queen of the Waste Land. It is doubtful that RJ means for Rand's women to mirror Arthur exactly. It is probable that the women will be Elayne, Min, and Aviendha. Add to this the visions in LOC involving 3 women and (probably) Rand on a boat.

 

The Green Man: Both in the Arthurian version, where Sir Gawain encounters the Green Man, and the much earlier Irish myths where Cuchulain encounters a nameless entity that by the description is obviously the Green Man, the story follows the same pattern: hero makes deal with Green Man to show how brave he is, hero cuts Green Man's head off, Green Man reappears three nights later to finish the deal by cutting hero's head off, hero goes honourably to his destiny, Green Man stays his hand at the last conceivable instant and compliments hero on bravery. [Emmet O'Brien]

 

The Fisher King: a king in the legend of Perceval who had an unhealable wound corresponding to the woes of his land. cf Rand's side wound which is not Healable, the ACOS Header Prophecy, and the "Fisher" figure in Moridin's favorite game.

*****************************************************

I’m going to add a few bits and pieces to the first post.

 

I’m not sure I support the Green Man thesis, as laid out above. The Green Man/Ent/Treant/Treeman is a recurring theme in myths from all over the world. I think linking it specifically to Aurthurian legend is a little bit of a stretch.

 

The Fisher King’s pretty obvious.

 

As is sangreal = sang real.

 

Authurian legends/grail romances overlap once you step away from the core Arthur story, so I’ll add in a few bits and pieces.

[Mr Ares]

Ninlil was the inspiration for the Cannanite demoness Lilith, who was later adopted into Hebrew myth as the first wife of Adam. [Lilith's] specific sin was wanting to be on top during sex. Ninlil is a storm goddess and Nynaeve can predict storms, both literal and figurative.  Moreover Nynaeve was heavily involved in finding and using the Bowl of the Winds thus giving her further connections to the weather.

Like Lilith, Nyneave believes herself to be equal to any man

Lilith was turned into as sucubus, a creature which torments men.  And lets face it, Nynaeve does tend to torment men.

And of course a similarity in name beween Ninlil and Nynaeve.

So you're saying Nynae've prefers to be on top?