One Power strength

[Nightstrike]

Mean Aes Sedai strength should be at about 15-20% of Rand's strength.  When we say that 63.2% of the population can be Aes Sedai, we mean that 63.2% of the population is above a certain strength (Which I think to be about 8-12% of Rand's strength)

I agree completely with you on that. Others have said AS mean would be 50% of Lanfear's strength, but we have lots of proof from the books of the weakness of AS (and also of the huge strength of Lanfear).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Thor]

I still cannot agree that Rand actually cut Lanfear's shields at all.  Simply no way.  If he could cut anything he would not be snivelling on the ground like some sad loser.  His reaction was of hysteria at his own inability to counter Lanfear's attack effective enough, ie he couldn't cut the shields, only block them.  Nynaeve didn't cut Moghedien's shields and she didn't even show the reaction that Rand did.

[Mr Ares]

I still cannot agree that Rand actually cut Lanfear's shields at all. Simply no way.

You cannot agree with what RJ wrote?

[Thor]

No, because RJ didn't write it.  A blade meeting another blade is simply not cutting anything. There is no cutting.  Rand didn't have the skill nor strength to cut anything from Lanfear when in a frontal confrontation.

 

Call it blocking, call it parrying, but unless there is some recoil and total evidence of a weave being split asunder, then no, there is no cutting.

 

When Rand cut Lanfear's weave on Egwene and Aviendha, Lanfear visibly felt the recoil.  Are you expecting me to believe that when her weaves aimed at Rand (presumably to be at least equal strength as used on the wondergirls) are cut, she could keep on holding her pose with a contemptuous look while being hit by the recoil?

[Vambram]

Looks like a battle of semantics to me, gentlemen.

[Nightstrike]

I've just reread that part (TFoH, 52). It does not say that he cut all way through all her weaves/shields, so it's possible that he only cut INTO her weaving/shields. It does however say that he "cut at" them, which might indicate that he only cut into them. There were some recoils at first, for both of them. The recoils aren't mentioned after that. So it does not explicitly say that all cuts were all the way through. But it does say that Lanfear cut part of Rand's connection to the source, before he managed to stop her. That makes it likely that it is possible to cut into something without actually cutting right through it.

 

There are some other interesting things mentioned in that chapter. We have:..."The thicker the flow to him from the Source, the harder it would be to cut.". And also:..."He could end it, finish her.". Those two remarks are worth keeping in mind whenever One Power strength is discussed. Stronger=harder to cut and Rand (with angreal) was holding back on Lanfear.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Treblkickd]

Actually there is a line that distinctly says that Rand cuts through one of Lanfear's weaves:

 

Frantically—even in the Void, frantic; emptiness shimmered, dwindled—he wove Spirit and Fire and Earth, flailing it wildly. His heart was no longer beating. Fingers of dark pain crushing the Void. Gray veil falling over his eyes. He felt his weave slice raggedly through hers.

 

I think it's also clear that he was cutting through the shield she was weaving:

 

Panic rang the Void like a gong at the first knife-sharp touch, the Power diminishing as it slid deeper between him and the Source. With Spirit and Fire and Earth he cut at the knife blade; he knew where to find it; he knew where his link was, could feel that first nick. Her attempted shield vanished, reappeared, returned as fast as he could cut it,

 

Lanfear's shield returns as fast as he can cut it, which means that he cuts a shield, and she immediately reweaves another.

 

The really puzzling thing about this battle is that Rand doesn't think to use his angreal from the start.  Not that he would have necessarily won if he had.  The thing that I think this fight makes crystal clear is that Rand is dramatically outclassed in terms of knowledge and skill.  He has the strength to match/beat Lanfear (note also when the fight starts and Lews Therin tries to control the Source and is already thinking of how he can beat Lanfear), but at this point Rand, himself, can't even remember how to shield a woman.  He has the raw strength to match Lanfear, but has no idea how to use his strength most effectively.

[Vambram]

In TFoH, I believe it is clear that both Lanfear and Rand were of about equal strength in the One Power. However, I am fairly certain that it is also clear that since that confrontation, and all the way through KoD, Rand al'Thor's strength and skills with the One Power has greatly increased.

[Charlz Fel]

 

There are some other interesting things mentioned in that chapter. We have:..."The thicker the flow to him from the Source, the harder it would be to cut.". And also:..."He could end it, finish her.". Those two remarks are worth keeping in mind whenever One Power strength is discussed. Stronger=harder to cut and Rand (with angreal) was holding back on Lanfear.

 

My impression here was that Rand was drawing deeply on the source to make it difficult to sever his connection to it, i.e., to shield him.  This line does not support the claim that a woven flow would necessarily behave in the same fashion (although it certainly does not contradict that scenario either).

In TFoH, I believe it is clear that both Lanfear and Rand were of about equal strength in the One Power.

 

They are both using angreals, quite possibly angreals of different effectiveness, which makes it difficult to compare their raw strength here.  Also, Lanfear, being highly skilled, may have a style of combat that avoids matching strength with an opponent directly (as Nyneave and Moghedien did), which would negate her skill advantage.  Although she was stronger than almost any single unaided opponent she might face, angreals or linked opponents make this advantage unreliable; witness her confrontation (as Cyndane) with Alivia.  Finally, Lanfear may have been toying with Rand (surely she knew more potent offensive moves than fast repeated shielding attempts alone), and Rand appears to have been holding back also, as Nightstrike points out.

 

 

 

 

[Thor]

Ok from that it seems that Rand could have definitely cut Lanfear's shield.

 

But what happened was that, as soon as Lanfear felt Rand's weave striking hers, she let go of the weave, like a swordman would avoid the opponent's blade, and immediately struck again before Rand could recover.

[Nightstrike]

 

There are some other interesting things mentioned in that chapter. We have:..."The thicker the flow to him from the Source, the harder it would be to cut.". And also:..."He could end it, finish her.". Those two remarks are worth keeping in mind whenever One Power strength is discussed. Stronger=harder to cut and Rand (with angreal) was holding back on Lanfear.

 

My impression here was that Rand was drawing deeply on the source to make it difficult to sever his connection to it, i.e., to shield him.  This line does not support the claim that a woven flow would necessarily behave in the same fashion (although it certainly does not contradict that scenario either).

At the cleansing, they were channeling pure saidin/saidar. That flow must have been kind of like the flow through a channeler. Both Demandred and Osan'gar thought about "undoing" what Rand had done. None of them attempted to cut the flow, but both struggled to get closer to Rand (not his flow). Osan'gar wove balefire (=undoing). It seems likely that shields and cutting weaves/shields would behave in a similar way, even if they are made with Spirit (and a little other stuff). The way different characters reason around linking also supports this, IMO.

 

 

 

 

In TFoH, I believe it is clear that both Lanfear and Rand were of about equal strength in the One Power.

 

They are both using angreals, quite possibly angreals of different effectiveness, which makes it difficult to compare their raw strength here.  Also, Lanfear, being highly skilled, may have a style of combat that avoids matching strength with an opponent directly (as Nyneave and Moghedien did), which would negate her skill advantage.  Although she was stronger than almost any single unaided opponent she might face, angreals or linked opponents make this advantage unreliable; witness her confrontation (as Cyndane) with Alivia.  Finally, Lanfear may have been toying with Rand (surely she knew more potent offensive moves than fast repeated shielding attempts alone), and Rand appears to have been holding back also, as Nightstrike points out.

I don't think they used the angreal intitially, or maybe Rand did and we didn't got to read about it... Anyway, I would estimate Rand to be slightly weaker than Lanfear at that time. She's probably the second strongest Forsaken, and Rand had not reached full potential yet. Lanfear, even with a weaker angreal (Rand's is among the stronger ones - and so was Alivia's at the Alivia/Cyndane confrontation), would probably be far more than Rand could have handled.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

I have a possible strength listing

 

Ultimate Forsaken Strengths

100: Lews Therin Telamon/Rand al'Thor, Ishamael

100: Lanfear, Logain Ablar, Sharina Melloy

99: Demandred, Alivia

99: Aginor, Bathamael, Cyndane

98: Mazrim Taim

97: Graendal, Nynaeve al'Meara

96: Semirhage, Talaan, Damer Flinn

96: Mesaana

 

Average Forsaken Strengths

95: Bel'al

94: Narishima

93:

92: Asmodean

91:

 

Weak Forsaken/Rare Asha'man Strengths

90:

89:

88: Tamela, Viendre

87: Egwene al'Vere, Elayne Trakand, Aviendha

86: Moghedien, Bodewhin, Rochaid, Kisman, Torval, Gedwyn

 

Strong Ashaman/Rare Aes Sedai

85: Metarra, Grady, Neald

84:

83: Someryn

82:

81:

80:

79:

78:

77:

76:

75: Cadsuane, Therava

74: Kerene, Meilyn, Nicola

73:

72:

71:

 

Average Asha'man Strengths

70: Moiraine, Siuan (Old), Rainyn, Zarya

70: Elaida

70: Romanda, Lelaine

69: Cetalia, Merean, Merise, Naime

68: Sheriam Bayanar, Kiruna, Bera, Kwamesa, Kirstian, Reanne

67: Leane, Amys, Theodrin

66: Myrelle, Masuri, Faeldrin, Rafela, Shalon, Sumeko, Melaine, Galina, Faolain, Lemai, Desendre

65: Katerine, Anaiya, Morvin, Beonin, Carlinya, Maigan, Nesune, Silviana, Pevara, Rysael, Saerin

64: Delana, Edarra, Gabrelle, Leyn, Renaile, Toveine, Felaana, Yukiri

63: Tarna, Seaine, Doesine

62: Liandrin, Alviarin, Chanelle, Seonid

61: Duhara, Julanya, Keraille, Kurin, Narenwhin, Senine

 

Average Aes Sedai Strengths

60: Alanna, Verin, Merana, Eldrith, Falion, Ispan

59: Dorile

58: Aeldine, Asne, Chesmal, Covarla, Demira, Elza, Marillin, Merilille, Tialin

57: Sareitha

56: Vandene, Adeleas, Kairen

55: Temaile, Zerah, Valinde, Turanna, Micarra

54: Adley

53: Careane

52:

51:

50:

49:

48:

47:

46:

 

Weak Aes Sedai/Strong Accepted

45: Berenicia

44:

43:

42:

41:

 

Very Weak Aes Sedai/Average Accepted

40: Akkarin, Therva

39: Shana, Siuan

38: Leane

37: Aiden, Berenicia, Cabriana, Kumira, Zemaille

36: Elin Warrel

35:

34:

33: Berowin

32:

31:

 

Average Kin/Weak Accepted

30: Monaelle, Nisain, Reiko, Shana

29: Daigan Monelle

28:

27:

26:

25:

24:

23:

22:

21:

 

Weak Kin/Average Novice

20:

19: Sarainya

18:

17:

16:

15:

14:

13:

12: Asra

11:

 

Very Weak Channeler

10:

9:

8:

7: Alise

6:

5: Caiden, Kumiko

4:

3:

2:

1: Sorilea

 

Almost Unable to Channel

0: Morgase Trakand

 

 

 

Please do note that a difference of 10 levels would mean that the stronger channeler is twice as strong as the weaker.  (Eg.  Be'lal is twice as strong as Metarra)

[Tyrell]

It seems that people often assume that all the Asha'man are very strong, hell, I did too. But looking back it doesn't seem to be the case that Flinn, Narishma and the like are necessarily any stronger than the average Aes Sedai, at least not right now. Merise comments that Narishma has gotten stronger and they don't know how strong he will end up (the usual with men) but Cadsuane speculates that perhaps they (the bonded Asha'man) will end up stronger than their Aes Sedai, implying that they aren't yet.

[Mr Ares]

But looking back it doesn't seem to be the case that Flinn, Narishma and the like are necessarily any stronger than the average Aes Sedai, at least not right now.

A thought: male average strength sits slightly higher than female. Yet Aes Sedai average is skewed, because they have a minimum strength - Aes Sedai average could well be higher than male average strength, even if female average is lower. So there is good reason to expect plenty of men below AS average, especially when they have yet to reach their maximum.

 

I have a possible strength listing

No, you don't.

 

Ultimate Forsaken Strengths

100: Lews Therin Telamon/Rand al'Thor, Ishamael

100: Lanfear, Logain Ablar, Sharina Melloy

99: Demandred, Alivia

99: Aginor, Bathamael, Cyndane

98: Mazrim Taim

97: Graendal, Nynaeve al'Meara

87: Egwene al'Vere, Elayne Trakand, Aviendha

86: Moghedien, Bodewhin, Rochaid, Kisman, Torval, Gedwyn

 

Please do note that a difference of 10 levels would mean that the stronger channeler is twice as strong as the weaker. (Eg.  Be'lal is twice as strong as Metarra)

Nynaeve is more than twice as strong as Moghedien!? Moghedien is weaker than Egwene and Elayne? Aginor is weaker than or equal to Demandred? Lanfear, at 100, is equal to LTT/Rand/Ishy? No chance in hell of Nynaeve being that much stronger. Not unless you have damn good reason for us to believe that she was at less than half strength in Tanchico. I don't recall anything indicating Elayne/Egwene/Avi were stronger than Moghedien. Do you have evidence for that? Aginor is second strongest man. The evidence we have tells us that. So why would you have us ignore it? Aginor is stronger than Demandred, roughly equal to, but probably slightly below, Lanfear, who is second strongest Chosen, and as strong as a woman can be, which is a little less than a man can be, so either she is not at 100, or Rand, etc. are higher.

[Treblkickd]

Ultimate Forsaken Strengths

100: Lews Therin Telamon/Rand al'Thor, Ishamael

100: Lanfear, Logain Ablar, Sharina Melloy

99: Demandred, Alivia

99: Aginor, Bathamael, Cyndane

98: Mazrim Taim

97: Graendal, Nynaeve al'Meara

87: Egwene al'Vere, Elayne Trakand, Aviendha

86: Moghedien, Bodewhin, Rochaid, Kisman, Torval, Gedwyn

 

Please do note that a difference of 10 levels would mean that the stronger channeler is twice as strong as the weaker. (Eg.  Be'lal is twice as strong as Metarra)

Nynaeve is more than twice as strong as Moghedien!? Moghedien is weaker than Egwene and Elayne? Aginor is weaker than or equal to Demandred? Lanfear, at 100, is equal to LTT/Rand/Ishy? No chance in hell of Nynaeve being that much stronger. Not unless you have damn good reason for us to believe that she was at less than half strength in Tanchico. I don't recall anything indicating Elayne/Egwene/Avi were stronger than Moghedien. Do you have evidence for that? Aginor is second strongest man. The evidence we have tells us that. So why would you have us ignore it? Aginor is stronger than Demandred, roughly equal to, but probably slightly below, Lanfear, who is second strongest Chosen, and as strong as a woman can be, which is a little less than a man can be, so either she is not at 100, or Rand, etc. are higher.

 

I think that these lists, especially at the very highest levels, will be mostly guesswork.  For one thing, we have only a few outright statements re: the relative strengths of the Forsaken and other powerful channelers.  As MrAres says, we know that LTT and Ishamael are the strongest.  Aginor is listed as the second strongest in the Guide, and that jives with Dashiva/Osan'gar being just barely weaker than Rand (from Rand's POV thoughts about Dashiva).  Beyond that Demandred has to come up soon, as he is described as "almost" as strong as LTT.  I don't know if there are ever any statements of the strengths of Be'lal, Sammael, Rahvin, Balthamel, and Asmodean relative to the other Forasaken or LTT.  Probably there's a little dynamic range in there, but who knows exactly how they fall out.

 

I'm not convinced that Moghedien is undervalued above, as she seems wary of both Elayne and Nynaeve in Tanchico (TSR quote: Strong, though; strong enough to be more than troublesome. Especially you.” She fixed Nynaeve with her eyes. “You might become something one day.).  And then not much later Nynaeve beats Moghedien one-on-one, despite the fact that she has not maxed out her strength in the OP yet (in fact, I don't remember any hard evidence suggesting that either Elayne or Nynaeve has necessarily maxed out their strength by book 11, even).  So I think there's a good argument for Moghedien being about equal to Elayne/Aviendha/Egwene in strength.

 

But creating a comprehensive strength list gets even nastier when you start to cross-compare men and women, mostly because of RJ's statement (from his blog):

 

Men can be much stronger than women in the pure quantity of the Power that they can channel, but on a practical level, women are much more deft in their weaving and that means the strongest possible woman can do just about anything that the strongest possible man could, and to the same degree.

 

So the obvious problem here is that raw strength in drawing on the power is no longer necessarily the (only) important measurement.  Maybe Rand/LTT can use 100 One Power Units (OPU) in his weaves, and Lanfear can only used 90 OPUs in  hers, but maybe Lanfear's OPUs can be used far more efficiently/deftly/whatever and that makes up the difference for any practical purposes.

 

So I think that the best way to go about ranking Strength in the Power would be to do the men and women separately (with the same number of levels in strength for men and women), and then basically scale the two rankings to one another.  That is, LTT/Ishamael at the top for the men, Lanfear (pre-*finn visit) at the top for the women, and then say that a duel between LTT and Lanfear would be close enough that the outcome is not obviously pre-determined (ie they'd actually have to sit down and duel in order to see who would win a duel).

 

Maybe if you want to split hairs with what RJ said ("the strongest possible woman can do just about anything that the strongest possible man could" - focus on the "just about") you could offset all of the female ranks to be a half-rank below the equivalent male rank (and this would make sense as balancing out the ability of women to link).

 

So lets say that RJ used 21 levels of strength to rank channelers (As he claimed to do according to http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=75 ), and then place all males in the appropriate rank, from 1 to 21, and do the same for women.  And then you could synthesize those lists as follows:

 

1M

1F

2M

2F

3M

3F

4M

4F

5M

5F

etc...

[Thor]

we know for a fact that narishma must be significantly stronger than most other ashaman and aes sedai due to him being described to have "the spark".

[Nightstrike]

Yeah, the ashaman (most of them, at least) are still gaining strength. I haven't included most of those in my list for that reason. But we do have evidence for how women and men compare in the books. Asmodean said 2 women would have to be linked and also of sufficient strength in order to overcome a man. And the AS said that Logain would have been able to overcome their shielding if only 5 had been holding his shield. He's almost in the same strength level as Rand. Lets say that he had already reached his full strength, and that he was at strength 90 (percent of Rand's strength). Those 5 AS would have been at below 18 in strength, making it likely that average strength is about 15-18 (or something like that).

 

I have discussed the weakness of AS in the following of my posts in this thread:

Reply #114

Reply #109

Reply #108

Reply #107

Reply #105

Reply #70

Reply #54

Reply #52

Reply #50

Reply #47

Reply #40

Reply #39

 

[Mr Ares]

I'm not convinced that Moghedien is undervalued above, as she seems wary of both Elayne and Nynaeve in Tanchico (TSR quote: Strong, though; strong enough to be more than troublesome. Especially you.” She fixed Nynaeve with her eyes. “You might become something one day.). And then not much later Nynaeve beats Moghedien one-on-one, despite the fact that she has not maxed out her strength in the OP yet (in fact, I don't remember any hard evidence suggesting that either Elayne or Nynaeve has necessarily maxed out their strength by book 11, even). So I think there's a good argument for Moghedien being about equal to Elayne/Aviendha/Egwene in strength.

When Nynaeve faced Moghedien, they were equal. If she wasn't at her full strength, she was further along than Elayne, given that she has been channeling for a few years. She will probably end up stronger, but twice as strong? That's just going too far. As far Elayne, she has a weaker maximum than Nynaeve, but has not been channeling as long either. She should be a fair way beneath her at this time, although it is not impossible she will end up equal to Moggy, maybe even stronger. I can buy that. Which raises the question of whether this list is dealing with maximum or current strengths? Plus, again given times of channeling, I think Elayne by the end of the series could still be below where Nynaeve was in Tanchico. Where Cadsuane is on the list also struck me. At 75, with the girls more than double that at 87, with Nynaeve again double that at 97. Nynaeve is four times Cadsuane's strength!? The whole idea of ten points representing a doubling of strength is utterly ridiculous. And the placement of Moghedien as half the strength of her nearest rival amongst the Chosen? Why do people insist on putting her so low when we have nothing to support it? Even a hundred point scale is wrong, given that RJ has said he doesn't use one. Now, if we wish to use the information available to put those Aes Sedai we can place, and maybe a few other men and women where possible, on a 21 level list, then we have a tool which could actually be considered useful, rather than just given people ridiculously high or low placements because of how much we like or dislike them, or whatever bit of "evidence" we have that justifies such placements when it actually says no such thing.

 

we know for a fact that narishma must be significantly stronger than most other ashaman and aes sedai due to him being described to have "the spark".

Unless you have a quote to back up sparkers being significantly stronger than learners, then no we don't.

[Charlz Fel]

The whole idea of ten points representing a doubling of strength is utterly ridiculous.

The system might make sense, if these numbers add upon linking (Luckers' exponential scale idea).  Thus, for instance, Nyneave would easily be able to overwhelm any two "normal" Aes Sedai, but not if they are linked (as we see in CoS, when two Black Aes Sedai, linked, are a match for Nyneave).

 

we know for a fact that narishma must be significantly stronger than most other ashaman and aes sedai due to him being described to have "the spark".

Unless you have a quote to back up sparkers being significantly stronger than learners, then no we don't.

Moiraine said, back in her first conversation with Egwene about the Power in TEoTW, that sparkers tend to be stronger than other sisters.  However, we have proof that this is not absolute: Sharina, a non-sparker, has the potential to be stronger than Nyneave, who is the strongest sparker the Aes Sedai have seen in centuries.

 

Another note--most of the Asha'man we have seen were selected with the criterion that they be able to make a gateway, so our idea of Asha'man strength may be somewhat skewed.

 

[Nightstrike]

Known sparkers: Nynaeve, Egwene, Moiraine, Alivia, Aviendha, Siuan, Elayne, Theodrin, Liandrin, Rand, Narishma, Bodewhin, Logain, Taim, Jancy, ... I may have missed a few, I think maybe Galina and a few others might be sparkers also. They are all well above average in strength. Only remarkable exceptions to this trend, that I can think of right now, are Sharina Melloy and Damer Flinn.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

Nynaeve is a sparker yes.  But remember, she was weaker than ANY aes sedai when she first came to the Tower.  yet we see her several months later that she is stronger significantly that any other known channeler.

 

Rand took at least two years to reach where he is now in KoD.  Robert Jordan has stated that men grow in strength faster than woman.  We know that Nynaeve is definately weaker than Rand.  So she'd probably take 3 years.  But she's a sparker with some strength, so we could lessen that to 2.5 years, 2 years at max.  She had been channeling conciously for less than a year when she battled Moghedien in KoD.  So according to my reasoning it is possible that she IS twice as strong of Moghedien.

 

When Moiraine compared Egwene and Elayne's strength to Nynaeve's, she said that Nynaeve's strength would be a bonfire compared to Egwene's and Elayne's candles.  It is possible that she was exaggerating, but Egwene and Elayne are definately quite a bit weaker than Nynaeve.  Twice as weak at the most, but most probably above that.  The list should be partially revised, but not drastically.

[Nightstrike]

Nynaeve is a sparker yes.  But remember, she was weaker than ANY aes sedai when she first came to the Tower.  yet we see her several months later that she is stronger significantly that any other known channeler.

Was she? Do you have a quote on that? We know for a fact that Nynaeve has been touching the source for AT LEAST the last 9 years - before she arrived at Tar Valon. And that it is very likely that she has been touching the source during the last 11 years before she arrived at Tar Valon. All according to "From the Two Rivers" in the newly added chapter "Earlier - Ravens". TGH is set in 998 NE and the newly added chapter is set in 990 NE. We have:... "Mistress Barran often praised Nynaeve publicly for being such a quick learner. She had apprenticed Nynaeve three years earlier, after her then-apprentice died of some sickness even Mistress Barran could not cure. Nynaeve had been a recent orphan, and a lot of people said the Wisdom should have sent her to her relatives in the country after her mother died, and taken on someone years older.". And also:... ""Don't you have work to do, Egwene?" Nynaeve said without turning around. Egwene jumped in spite of herself. Nynaeve had been doing that ever since last fall, knowing that Egwene was there without looking, and Egwene wished she would stop.". The last quote shows us that Nynaeve had Healed Egwene previous fall (989 NE). And in the same chapter the Wisdom unwraps a bandage that Nynaeve had just wrapped up (Nynaeve looking anxious all the time, and not angry), and when the wound isn't Healed the Wisdom looks disappointed.

 

 

Rand took at least two years to reach where he is now in KoD.  Robert Jordan has stated that men grow in strength faster than woman.  We know that Nynaeve is definately weaker than Rand.  So she'd probably take 3 years.  But she's a sparker with some strength, so we could lessen that to 2.5 years, 2 years at max.  She had been channeling conciously for less than a year when she battled Moghedien in KoD.  So according to my reasoning it is possible that she IS twice as strong of Moghedien.

Yes, consciously she may have been channeling for a shorter time, but she's been touching the source far longer than Rand has. Men start touching the source later than women do, and Rand is years younger than her. And Nynaeve has a history of tugging her braid very often, he.  :D

 

 

When Moiraine compared Egwene and Elayne's strength to Nynaeve's, she said that Nynaeve's strength would be a bonfire compared to Egwene's and Elayne's candles.  It is possible that she was exaggerating, but Egwene and Elayne are definately quite a bit weaker than Nynaeve.  Twice as weak at the most, but most probably above that.  The list should be partially revised, but not drastically.

There's no way that analogy can work - a bonfire next to candles. How much bigger is a bonfire next to a candle? Maybe a hundred times or more. Either it's just an expression, or Moiraine was seriously mistaken. Or, more likely, both exaggerating AND mistaken. Channelers of Nynaeve's strength hasn't been in the Tower for a very, very long time. Perhaps for more than a thousand years. Moiraine could be mistaken on approximating when Nynaeve started channeling, or maybe on how fast she has gained strength - stronger channelers gain strength faster than weaker ones. Either way, that analogy can't be accurate.

 

 

 

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

Hmm.  But when the channelers are sparkers, even if they are potentially very strong, their strength will not increase much, maybe until about Novice level?  Until they can conciously channel, with full knowledge of what they are doing, they will increase no further.

[Mr Ares]

Hmm.  But when the channelers are sparkers, even if they are potentially very strong, their strength will not increase much, maybe until about Novice level? Until they can conciously channel, with full knowledge of what they are doing, they will increase no further.

As far as I am aware, OP strength in women increases in a regular fashion until she reaches her maximum, unless she is forced. What do you have that indicates concious channeling is necessary to the process?

[Treblkickd]

Hmm.  But when the channelers are sparkers, even if they are potentially very strong, their strength will not increase much, maybe until about Novice level?  Until they can conciously channel, with full knowledge of what they are doing, they will increase no further.

 

My impression/understanding of how strength increases in women is that as a rule it is gradual, smooth, and has a well-defined end point (ie. women can sense how strong another woman will become as well as how strong she is, so they'd know when someone has reached their max strength).  So I think it's reasonable to suggest that a woman's strength, while growing, will follow a smooth curve, but the slope of that curve depends directly on how frequently or heavily that woman is channeling.  So 'Forcing' a woman just means that she is channeling constantly, and constantly pushing her own strength limits, thus causing her strength to increase rapidly (but still smoothly).  On the other hand, a wilder or kin or some such who channels only rarely and generally doesn't push their strength limits will grow gradually, but very slowly.