Shivan the Hunter

[Valinthros]

I have a question about something, it might be important, it might not.  I'm pressed on time, so... something I wanted to say before I do.

 

Luckers:

 

        Thank you for the replies.  I would go back and quote.. but time doesnt permit.

 

Mr. Ares:

 

        Thank you for the replies.  Same as luckers, I'd quote but... time.

 

I think both of you understand what I was saying now.  All I needed. :D

 

 

Here is my question:

 

How much fog was around them at the battle of Falme?  What was Bornhalds PoV to substantiate that?  I read a bit of the replies and since I dont have a reference, I thought I'd point that out and see if anyone could shed some light on that point.  Relevancy is either supporting the 'banner in the sky' theory or 'banner not in the sky'.  Thanks for takin a peek for me.

[Mr Ares]

That drawing was bought by Moiraine three days after the event at Falme in a village east of Falme (somewhere on Toman Head) when Rand’s party passed through.

So there has been ample time for the story, details, other pictures, etc. to spread.

The ‘Dragon rode on the winds of time’, right there over Falme ‘bannered cross the sky’ for all to see (and draw).

Yes, the Dragon. But not neccessarily his banner.

 

That means there was more to that banner then just Hawkwing feeling it was appropriate.

How so?

But I guess you don’t want to understand the books better, Ares. You just want to be right, regardless of the books.

It's Mr Ares to you, Mik, and I do want to understand the books better. My interpretation of that is different to yours. Funny though, I could throw that back at you and it would work - you just want to be right regardless of the books. You don't want to understand them. It doesn't get us anywhere.

 

I didn’t think I had to spell it out for you again, but the fact that every story was alike at the heart and all the stories mention a column riding under the Dragon Banner. How can the stories spreading from a village on Toman Head be the same at the heart as the stories from Falme if only some people in Falme saw that Dragon Banner like you say?

People are capable of passing on at least some details accurately. That says nothing about either column or banner being in the sky, yet people were able to pass those details along. The only thing mentioned as being in the sky was Rand.

 

It’s called decency. Something you have seemed to lost somewhere along the way to your high horse.

What makes you think I ever had it?

It takes a big man to admit when he’s being a blunt asshole and wrong at the same time.

I am the former, frequently. Not the latter.

I figured pointing out where you were a bit untactful, would help. My mistake. But your loss.

Not really much of a loss. I'm not a very tactful person. Deal with it.

 

Ahaha. That’s funny. It’s very relevant.

It is neither, Mik. The banner is not mentioned in that quote. Something will be bannered, we know Rand was, but there is no mention there of the banner, and you have provided no reference anywhere to it appearing in the sky. Bannered is not the same as banner. Luckers went over this with you.

 

Poor poor Mr Ares. You see, my point here was never about right or wrong. It was about ‘decency’.

I was not wrong, I was right. And I saw your utterly irrelevant point, and I dismissed it. I could have pointed it out to you in any number of pretty ways, given you a spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down and all that rot, but why bother? You're not worth it. If you cannot accept a simple truth unless it presented all prettily for you, then you're an idiot. That simple. You stated opinion as fact, I pointed that out to you, and also pointed out you needed to distinguish the two. You do. I could say it nicer, but it won't change that simple fact. Live with it, boy.

 

Should a man have his own views? Discuss.

That’s a silly question. Isn’t that what gives a “forum” it’s right of existence? Different viewpoints being discussed by all. Hehe! Funny!

This forum exists, but does it have a right to? Legally, yes, but this is not a question of legality. People have a lot of opinions, many uninformed, many stupid, many outright destructive. Was Hitler entitled to his views on the Jews? If so, was he entitled to express his opinions? Was Stalin entitled to a belief that a million deaths is just statistics? Are people allowed these opinions? Should they be?

Excuse me? Did you just pull Hitler & Stalin into a discussion about 'opinion on fantasy' with me? Come on, man. Even the slight suggestion of comparing my opinion with theirs should be avoided IMO

No, Mik. I did not just pull Hitler and Stalin into a discussion on opinion on fantasy with you. You missed the point, whether accidentally or on purpose I don't know, but I am setting you straight now. My point was not about opinions on fantasy, but opinions in general. All opinions. Yours, Fryn's, mine Hitler's, Lincoln's, all opinions, anywhere, ever. Should people always be entitled to an opinion no matter what it is? That is the point. That is the question I was asking. You can think about it, debate it it, ignore it, I'm not bothered, but that is what it is, not what you claimed it was.

That you say you cannot understand the difference in tone you’re setting by using Stalin/ Hitler instead of Lincoln is a slap in the face of intelligence.

You cannot hide behind the kind of discussion you meant it to be. We are on a forum discussing fantasy are we not? Why not use Lincoln in your example, if it wouldn’t have made a difference to the point you were making? It’s because you love being a blunt weapon when you think you have been given half the chance. You don't want to be civil. You just want to humiliate the 'opposition'.

Drawing the parallel you did was unnecessary and rude. I don’t need to think about that; you should.

Is a man entitled to his opinion, no matter what that opinion is? That was my question, which you still cannot answer. Giving the opinions of really nice people doesn't really illustrate the point. If I were to put forward Lincoln's opinion on abolition, which he was in favour of, then most people would agree with that opinion, so it misses the point. If I were to put forward the opinion that preserving the union was more mportant than freeing the slaves, that would serve as a better illustration of the point - is that an alright opinion? Going even further, to people like Hitler, works better still. Was he entitled to his opinion? If yes, why? If no, why? It was not rude, Mik. You choose to be insulted when there is nothing there to insult you. If people think people should be entitled to an opinion no matter what it is then they are saying people are entitled to all sorts of monstrous opinions. If they are not entitled, then who decides what opinions you are entitled to? Where do you draw the line? Does the difference lie not in what is believed, but in what actions may be taken by way of those beliefs? Is Hitler entitled to his belief, but not to act on it, in other words? It was not a slap in the face of intelligence, Mik. No matter how much you try and distort this into me trying to humiliate you you are doing that to yourself very well. It was a perfectly reasonable question, and you misunderstood it and try to place the blame for that everywhere other than where it belongs. With you. You were wrong.

 

You can (think) you’re right without being insulting and rude, can you not?

Yes, but you don't deserve it.

It’s more fun for everyone.

Not really.

 

So, you blame me for your insults. Now that childish to say the least;

“I won’t be blunt, rude & insulting when you don’t post what I think is blatantly wrong”

Pathetic, really.

You misunderstand again. Is it intentional or accidental? If you walked up to a lion and poked him, he may not react, or he may maul you. He doesn't need to maul you, but you can hardly complain if he does. Let sleeping dogs lie, Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus, and most of all, if you would sow the winds, you must be prepared to reap the whirlwind. You can post what you like, but if you piss me off, don't come crying if I react. You brought it on yourself. You have sown the winds, Mik, and you still do so. Don't complain when you are reaping the whirlwind.

 

And next time you want to talk about manners, maybe you should bear in mind that people in glass houses are generally discouraged from throwing stones.

[Luckers]

I don't agree with one side or the other on this, but I hope Luckers/Ares will be man enough to concede the point about the banner being in the representations of the battle of Falme. It does, literally, come from the Creator's mouth.

 

Where, precisely? The banner was with Perrin whilst Rand was being displayed in the sky. Furthermore, no statement speak of the banner being displayed--the only comment that mention it takes place three days after the fact wherein it speaks of the man who's face was displayed at falme riding under that banner--it also speaks of borderlanders riding at the back of the man who's face was displayed at falme, yet no one seems to be suggesting they too were displayed.

 

I think I'm being quite manly, not that i see how gender comes into play with that--either way i won't be concedeing that point any time soon.

 

Mik, given i've been involved in the unpleasentness of the discussions with you i've been holding off--forthwith im not going to comment on your comments, and as a mod i require you shape up or more official action will be taken. Specifically i'm speaking of comments like this...

 

You’re doing it again; trying to teach me English…..

Again I have to say; I understand, I agree, but in this case, you’re points are all moot. And like you –finally- admitted yourself just now; a banner can be ‘bannered’, and that was my initial point. Because it happened.

 

Functionally, no--its unlikely to see within the english language a description of a banner being bannered, any more than it is a tower being towered. In any case the specific point i was making is that the use of the word bannered does not imply an actual banner being present--indeed we know that to not be the case as the banner was with Perrin--and directly described as such even when Rand was plastered accross the sky. A plaster being plastered, theres another one.

 

Again, I didn’t write the books, so go explain Harriet how her late husband and herself have taken a word (bannered) so literal in relation to the word ‘banner’, that it’s almost a mockery of all your English grammar lessons. It. Is. Irrelevant.

 

I wouldn't need too--its not like its a secret, and Harriet is a very accomplished editor. She'd know.

 

….. Luckers, mate….please do yourself a favor; re-read the final 4 chapters of TGH.

 

Rand was in a ‘coma’ for five whole days as a direct result of his battle with Ba’alzamon in the sky. He was found by Min right after his fight and didn’t wake up for five days, when they had left Falme already.

There were drawings shoved under Rand’s nose the minute he woke up, depicting Rand battling Ishy with the Dragon Banner in the background.

 

Yes... and? The drawings are clearly inaccurate--the Dragon banner is a well known symbol, and the artists knew it was the Dragon fighting. it makes sense for them to input the banners.

 

The fact is that the banner was not present in the sky.

 

I don't entirely understand your heavy emphasis of the time Rand was in a coma--the artists were hardly likely to wait on rand regaining consciousness to start peddling their wares--this was the medieval equivalent of fox news, and just as reliable.

 

Please, please, please just accept the fact that you are mistaken this time;

About the word ‘must’… about Hawkwings ‘feelings’…. About the Dragon Banner not being bannered across the sky.

 

Accept the fact that the Dragon Banner was literally ‘needed’ & mentioned according to prophecy. You were wrong about the Moiraine quote and it was actually Siuan’s where you mistakenly thought that Rand’s interpretation of Siuans words was a part of what you thought Moiraine had said somewhere in the books.

 

Umm... no. And furthermore I was the one that pointed out my own mistake with Moiraine and Siuan's comments--what you hoped to gain by that i don't know. The logic still stands. Furthermore i never mistakenly thought Rand's interpretation of siuan's words were a part of Siuan's words--indeed my position relies entirely on it BEING Rand's interpretation--specifically that Siuan's comment that the Horn could be sounded by anyone being met with moans happened because it was commonly believed the horn could only be sounded by the Light spoke to Siuan having at one stage believe that, and having encountered a source reliable enough to move her against her preset notions.

 

For you to have suggested that at all is disengenuos Mik. Poor show.

 

All this talk of grammar (on bannered, must, feelings & whatnot) was nice, but it’s wrong in this particular case. I, nor fryn need extra schooling.

 

It was your interpretation of the english language that i was questioning, not Fryn's. I fail to see how thats harsh--you stated that english is your second language. That you would misunderstand some of the particualr grammatical idiosyncracies is a given. Thats not an insult Mik--but it does influence the specifics of this discussion.

 

 

*bites on tongue & closes eyes*

For the final time; I understand the differences perfectly.

And for the last time; it is irrelevant in this case.

You started by saying ‘bannered’ couldn’t mean depeicting a banner. That’s what I replied to, saying it could mean a banner and in this particular case it did mean depicting that banner.

 

Correction, i was stating that the use of the word 'bannered' did not imply a banner--you did raise that quote, if you remember, as evidence that the banner was present. The word bannered implies only the displaying of something above something--Rand and Ishamael above Falme in this case. It neither requires the presense of an actual banner, nor would it actually be used to describe an actual banner.

\

Quote from: Luckers on November 16, 2008, 02:37:08 AM

Quote

And my point was, that the Dragon Banner was literally bannered acros the sky, together with Rand to proclaim him. And in that context, the words are linked. We're not talking about the reverse, so your whole grammar lesson is pointless and degrading. Besides, I like to think my english & my vocabulary are about as good as they can get (fluent), when you consider it's not my native language.

 

But thats just the point--the Dragon banner WAS NOT bannered accross the sky. Rand and Ishamael were, the Dragon Banner was with Perrin.

 

 

Quote from: Right after Rand wakes up from “coma”

“We—we saw it all,” Min said in a faint voice. She put a hand over one of Rand’s comfortingly.

 

Moiraine reached under her cloak again and came out with a rolled parchment, one of the large sheets such as the street artists in Falme used. The chalks were a little smudged when she unfurled it, but the picture was still clear enough. A man whose face was a solid flame fought with a staff against another with a sword among clouds where lightning danced, and behind them rippled the Dragon banner. Rand’s face was easily recognizable.

 

“How many have seen that?” he demanded. “Tear it up. Burn it.”

 

The Aes Sedai let the parchment roll back up. “It would do no good, Rand. I bought that two days gone, in a village we passed through. There are hundreds of them, perhaps thousands, and the tale is being told everywhere of how the Dragon battled the Dark One in the skies above Falme.”

 

See? Rand’s face and Dragon Banner drawn together…

 

Of course i see it, its in the text. It just doesn't imply the banner was present--which indeed it was not as a fact.

 

Ouch, wrong. See above; Rand was in a coma. “Chapter 50 – After”, is about the Falme battle only. How could Rand ride at the head of the Shienarans? We also know for a fact Rand charged into battle at the head of the Heroes with the Dragon Banner overhead.

Then the Heroes fought a battle –linked- to Rands fight. That’s what everyone saw in the sky.

 

Yes, Rand was in a coma for days--Chapter 50 - After--therefore inherently takes place days after Falme--it directly refers to Rand's face being in the sky above falme in the past tense. Rand, days after the fight at Falme, rode at the head of shienarans under the dragon banner--people seeing this event, again days after falme, recognised his face as the face of the man who had appeared above falme--again days before.

 

 

The first quote literally shows the Dragon Banner being mentioned as “Banner of prophesy”. Not by a character, so we know beyond any doubt it’s not a characters interpretation. RJ states for a fact, that the Dragon Banner is a Banner of Prophesy.

 

Well, firstly--that was stated as the beliefs of the people--by the narrator, its true--which means its a fact beyond any doubt that this truly is a belief of the people--nothing more.

 

Secondly, so what? What does any of that have to do with the banner being significant to the horn--we know for a fact that the banner is remembered, and even that there are prophecies reguarding its importance--where in that implies specific importance in the use of the horn?

 

Quote from: TGH, Chapter 9 - Leavetakings

“You ride to find the Horn of Valere,” [siuan] said, “and the hope of the world rides with you. The Horn cannot be left in the wrong hands, especially in Darkfriend hands. Those who come to answer its call, will come whoever blows it [true], and they are bound to the Horn [true], not to the Light [true, they are not bound to the Light. Yet we have Birgitte stating that the Heroes are bound to the Wheel & Horn ‘to fight the Shadow’].”

 

[Rand’s PoV] There was a stir among the listening men. Everyone believed that those heroes called back from the grave would fight for the Light. If they could fight for the Shadow, instead...[spe-cu-la-tion by Rand, based on Siuans words, intended or not]

 

Siuan never said one word wrong. She used how Aes Sedai cannot lie to influence the group that were to retrieve the Horn with the importance of her ‘charge’.

It’s what Aes Sedai do best; They manipulate.

Rand took the bait. And so did you.

It was Rand who thought Siuans words meant that the Heroes will follow a Darkfriend, but Siuan never said that; regardless if she was implying it, or not.

 

 

Firstly, Rand's thoughts are the basis of my point--they show that is held unilaterally by Third Agers that the horn only works for the light. That shows, therein, that Siuan must have encountered some text of significant integrity at one stage for her to have change her position.

 

And wherein was Siuan manipulating the truth--she states flat out that anyone can sound the horn. Therefore she believes it as fact. Rand took no bait--there was no bait offered. Siuan spoke clearly and without prevarication.

 

There’s also the fact that Hawkwing listened to and followed the commands of the Dragon and never even blinks at Mat until ‘the weave is set’, proves how you and Rand interpreted Siuans words wrong.

Hawkwing didn’t follow the Dragon Banner & the Dragon because he ‘felt it was the right thing to do’, but because he had to.

(probably by prescripts stronger then Law).

 

Rand did not 'interpret' anything. Siuan spoke clearly. And there was no situation during which Rand's suggestions and Mat's differed--why would Hawkwing have felt conflicted?

 

Quote

The wild cries Mat wrung from the Horn echoed in the fog [the TAR connection to the world], and the drumming of hooves as the horses picked up speed. Rand charged into the mists, wondering if he knew where he was headed. The clouds thickened, hiding the far ends of the rank of heroes galloping to either side of him [hey look; a column in full gallop with Rand at the head!], obscuring more and more, till he could see only Mat and Perrin and Hurin clearly. Hurin crouched low in his saddle, wide-eyed, urging his horse on. Mat sounding the Horn, and laughing between. Perrin, his yellow eyes glowing, the Dragon’s banner streaming behind him[Hey look! The Dragon Banner!].

Here’s your bit of prophecy…and what everyone saw in the sky, next to Rand fighting Ishy. First everyone could see the charge, then everyone could see the fight between Ishy and Rand.

 

You claim people saw Perrin riding with the banner in the sky? By what basis? There is no description of anything of the sort. People could see Rand and Ishamael, they saw nothing of the charge.

 

Quote

By ship and horse the stories spread, by merchant wagon and man on foot, told and retold, changing yet always alike at the heart,

 

Yet one thing every tale had the same. At their head rode a man whose face had been seen in the sky above Falme, and they rode under the banner of the Dragon Reborn.

The things people are speculating about, is who and how many people were in the column. But everyone saw that Dragon Banner at it’s front, with the boy leading the column later displayed fighting Ishamael. He must be the Dragon!

 

What? People saw a collumn of shienarans days after falme led by the man that was seen in the sky above Falme riding under the Dragon Banner--its a reasonable deduction under that situation that he is the Dragon--what does this have to do with suggesting the banner was displayed in the sky above Falme too?

 

Your second quote just shows that Perrin still has the Dragon Banner up after the charge, meaning he didn’t drop it and that he has a ‘Bannermans courage’ to hold on to it, despite fighting for his life. (as later mentioned by Birgitte to Perrin in TAR at the Tower of Ghenji)

 

So, in conclusion;

- Rand was at the head of a column only once in the days leading to Falme or in the aftermath; when charging into battle with the Heroes of the Horn.

- When Rand and the Heroes (Hawkwing too) charged, the Dragon Banner was flying.

- The Dragon Banner moves on the wind, somewhere where the Heroes had ‘all of time’ (“a current of air seemed to ripple the pale length of the banner, so the serpentine Dragon appeared to move, alive.)

- Drawings depicting “Rand and Ishy fighting with the Dragon Banner rippling behind them”, were drawn hundreds if not thousands of times. One of those pictures was bought by Moiraine only 2 days after the fight, while Rand was still unconscious.

- RJ called the Dragon Banner a “Banner of prophecy”.

- the Karaethon Cycle hides the banner in it’s wording twice (TGH, Chapter 50 – After & TGH, Chapter 22 - Watchers)

 

1. Rand was at the head oa collumn days after.

2. Of course the banner was flying--Perrin had specifically put it on a branch so it would fly--whats the significance? And why emphasize Hawkwing?

3. Of course the Dragon Banner moves on the wind. Banners usually do. That the Horn's fog did not is pretty cool, that the banner did is physics.

4. Drawings did depict that--made by artists with a right to artistic liscnece. As a fact we know the banner was instead with Perrin, and as such not displayed above Falme.

5. Actually he cited that the common belief of Tairen people was that it was a 'Banner of Prophecy'. I fail to see the significance in either case--it IS a very significant banner, and its highly likely it is mentioned in prophecy given everyone recognises it... how is this relevant?

6. The Kareathon Cycle does not mention it once--'After' is not prophecy, its a relation of societal opinion, and the prophecy of the watchers speaks of Rand being bannered--once again this implies nothing of the banner being present.

 

Next to the fact, that you’re inventing stuff on the spot, how does that make the Dragon Banner a banner of prophecy?

 

It doesn't. Why is that a requirement?

 

All your irrelevant sentences about how word of mouths spreads and myth aside, you answered your question yourself.

Yes, not everyone agreed on who were in the column,.. or how many people were in the column.. or who fought who…

AND YET, taking into consideration how much stories change over time….”one thing every tale had the same”

 

At [the columns] head rode a man whose face was seen in the sky above Falme, and [the column] rode under the banner of The Dragon Reborn..

 

Yes, precisely--days after falme people saw a collumn riding under the dragon banner led by the man whose face had been seen above falme. The banner was not seen above falme, it was seen above the collumn.

 

believe I proved a few times over that it was. What makes you think the beginning of the battle was not depicted in the sky? Drawings prove it. Prophecy proves it. RJ proves it, by tying the Dragon Banner to prophecy.

You just don’t want to see it. Not my problem tbh.

 

So why is Perrin and the others not present in the drawing--this is your problem, by the way--your the one claiming that this happened, you need to back it up. Prophecy never mentions the banner being in the sky above Falme, RJ sure has hell never tied the banner to that paticular prophecy. Where is your proof.

 

That drawing was bought by Moiraine three days after the event at Falme in a village east of Falme (somewhere on Toman Head) when Rand’s party passed through. Moiraine says flat out there are hundreds if not thousands around like it. Rand took one look at it and recognised the Dragon Banner on it. Not a banner. Not a banner that vaguely could resemble the Dragon Banner. How could the Dragon Banner be drawn in a village three days riding east of where it was used, on the third day after the events at Falme?

Because –as prophecy said- it was in the sky with Rand. It’s what proclaimed him the Dragon.

 

Swigaro stated it quite succinctly i thought--because the banner was witnessed clearly by those involved in the fight--indeed, Perrin displayed it specifically so it could be seen. It was, however, never displayed in the sky--and once again peophecy NEVER said it would be, it said Rand would be bannered in the sky--you said those lessons in grammer were irrelevent, but that you cling to this point shows they were not.

 

Or do you think hundreds if not thousands of people drew a banner instantly recognisable as the Dragon Banner on word of mouth?

 

If every drawing was done by an artist who was present at Falme, then all would have been in a position to actually see Perrin with the banner as well as the fight in the sky. If not--as is much more likely--then they would have done it entirely on word of mouth--which would have included word of the banner.

 

The ‘Dragon rode on the winds of time’, right there over Falme ‘bannered cross the sky’ for all to see (and draw).

 

Yes, the Dragon was indeed bannered accross the sky--we all know this Mik. The banner itself however was not, nor is it implied.

 

I didn’t think I had to spell it out for you again, but the fact that every story was alike at the heart and all the stories mention a column riding under the Dragon Banner. How can the stories spreading from a village on Toman Head be the same at the heart as the stories from Falme if only some people in Falme saw that Dragon Banner like you say?

 

Because the stories do not refer to Falme, they refer to the collumn that was moving away from Falme days after the event.

 

It’s only logic that it must be depicted in the sky, by those sentences alone.

 

Those sentences alone speak of DAYS AFTER FALME!

 

Ahaha. That’s funny. Coming from the man who said –for a fact- that the Dragon Banner wasn’t mentioned anywhere and that fryn and myself couldn’t view the ‘facts’ in a bigger picture. Hilarious even. It’s very relevant, but unfortunately for you, I’m not here to make the ‘willingly blind’ see reason….:

 

And yet you offer no argument for how Rand himself being bannered in the sky is relevent to the suggestion that the banner itself was 'bannered'.

 

 

[smashingsilver]

I just read this entire 11 page discussion over the course of the last couple of hours, and let me say that it has been highly entertaining!  At this point I don't really care who's right or wrong, I just love hearing the two sides of the debate.  My favourite has to be Mik; not only is he the most passionate about what he believes to be true, he is incredibly persistent and is constantly bringing in new information.  Some is relevant; some is not.  He makes for an excellent read, however.

 

A couple of thoughts: Luckers, you made a point in your last post about Mik:

 

Mik, given i've been involved in the unpleasentness of the discussions with you i've been holding off--forthwith im not going to comment on your comments, and as a mod i require you shape up or more official action will be taken. Specifically i'm speaking of comments like this...

 

After which you proceed to list 23 quotes from Mik.  This is all fine and good, but the only thing I think Mik is guilty of is adding some irrelevant points to the discussion.  I have to give him credit though; he is certainly trying to provide background information to support his points.  If all of it does not fly, I don't consider that worthy of moderator action.

 

What is worthy of moderator review is Mr. Ares.  This guy is a self-proclaimed jerk who sees no need to be tactful in this discussion.  Isn't one of the most important roles for a moderator to fulfill that of enforcing respectful behaviour from all participants?  Mr. Ares is rude to those whose opinion differs from his, this is pointed out to him, and he confirms that he was rude and proceeds to continue with being a jerk.  Yet none of his disrespectful comments elicit any reaction from you.  The only thing I can think of is that you overlooked his comments because his opinion on this discussion mirrors your own.  It's understandable that the contrary opinion would cause greater frustration in you, but I can't see how you can scold Mik and not say a thing to Mr. Ares.  (And while his point was taken regarding his Stalin/Hitler reference, I still think it was in poor taste.  There must be several less controversial opinions that could have been referred to; I don't think Mik was wrong to feel insulted by those comments.  Especially when Mr. Ares proceeds to insult Mik later on in those same comments).

 

As for the topic under discussion, I believe, based on the discussion at hand and my own personal opinions, that it is far more likely that Hawkwing's need for the banner was for this instance only.  That really was the point of this entire discussion I believe (although this seemed to get buried over the last few pages), and all the other points mentioned, while very interesting, do not prove or disprove that the banner is tied to the Horn.  Clearly the banner is important for this age, and no doubt had some importance in the last age (although probably not as pronounced since the banner was primarily for the purpose of Lews Therin leading his armies, and to be available for the next round of TDR vs. TDO which we're reading now).  Whether the banner (or "a" banner) was tied to the Horn or the Heroes for previous soundings is unprovable with the information at hand.  I don't credit RJ's quote with proving anything in regard to the banner or the Dragon being present during the previous sounding.  As mentioned, the Dragon may have been one of the Heroes and may have carried the banner with him as his symbol.  This can not be discounted, neither can it be proven. 

 

Siuan's "new" information that a Darkfriend can blow the Horn does not mean that she is right.  It simply means that she believes it to be right.  She may have read an ancient book which stated it, and this book may even have been written by an Aes Sedai.  This could be enough information for her to change her mind from the commonly held opinion, which was based entirely on stories.  I think it very likely that reading a comment from a book that Siuan believed to be right, regardless of her reasons for thinking this, would carry more than enough weight in her mind to change her opinion from a belief based only on legend.  And for that matter, we do not even know that it was a book that provided Siuan with her knowledge.  The fact is we do not know the source of Siuan's information, we do not know how reliable it was, we only know that Siuan believed it to be true.  The evidence is circumstancial and very flimsy, in my opinion.  It does not align with RJ's comment about the Horn to prove the point that the Horn is not tied to the Dragon or his banner.  They are two points to be considered in the discussion, but in no way can any absolute, solid conclusions be made about this.  They are opinions, very interesting and long-winded ones, but opinions only.

 

Also, even if Siuan were correct and the Horn could be sounded by a Darkfriend, this does not mean that Heroes who were called would act.  The connection between the sounding of the Horn and control of the Heroes that respond has not been proven, as previously mentioned.  I do think it likely that they would respond to whomever called them, but since we only have one example to look at and in that example the Heroes clearly followed Rand, not Mat....well, the stronger indication over the course of the 11 books we have read is that the Heroes fight the Shadow, not for them.  If we're going to go with leanings and probabilities, then the probability here is that the Heroes will do what feels right to their existence and fight the Shadow.  Again, this is just an opinion, not completely proven or disproven.  If Birgitte can break her precepts about talking to people in TAR, then surely the Heroes could break the precept regarding fighting the Shadow.  Not likely, but possible.

 

Anyways, keep up the good research and discussion guys.  I would hope that everyone would try to be as respectful as possible, but I guess emotions will get the better of anyone from time to time.  Despite that, this topic has been excellent entertainment.  Funny how a discussion of an obscure quote about Shivan could turn into a massive debate about all Heroes, the Horn and the Dragon, and how all of it relates.  The WoT is truly amazing...

[Mr Ares]

What is worthy of moderator review is Mr Ares, Blessed Be His Name. This guy is a self-proclaimed jerk who sees no need to be tactful in this discussion. Mr Ares, BBHN, is rude to those whose opinion differs from his, this is pointed out to him, and he confirms that he was rude and proceeds to continue with being a jerk.

So Mik is rude, admits it, and carries on being rude, yet the only thing he is guilty of is adding some irrelevant points to the discussion, while I'm rude, admit it, and I'm a jerk in need of moderator review? Nice double standard. And not only do I not see the need to be tactful in this discussion, I rarely see the need to be tactful in any discussion I take part in, anywhere, ever, even to people who agree with me. You'll get used to it. Of course given that I would say Mik's last post was far less polite than my last post, I would say Mik is perhaps the worse of the two of us, but as it's Mik I suppose it's alright. You'd almost think some people liked being ranted at, given that they seem to be trying to provoke me into doing just that.

And while his point was taken regarding his Stalin/Hitler reference, I still think it was in poor taste. There must be several less controversial opinions that could have been referred to; I don't think Mik was wrong to feel insulted by those comments.

Less controversial opinions? The point requires a controversial opinion to illustrate it or is ridiculous. The advantages of those two are that they are fairly recent, have very well known opinions, and serve as very good examples. If Mik chooses to be offended by nothing, that's his problem and I fail to see why I should care.

It simply means that she believes it to be right.

No, it also means that she found a piece of evidence that convinced her that something which just about everyone else in the Westlands believes to be true may be false. That would require some backing. She just read a book and decided, "what the hell, everyone else is wrong, I'll believe the exact opposite"?

[Majsju]

Enough

 

All of you. Take one step back, draw a deep breath or two, and keep the discussion to the topic at hand, instead of petty mudslinging about who offended who.

 

I have said it before, but it seems like some things needs repeating over and over again, if you feel the need to make a comment about someones person, use a bloody pm, instead of ruining the thread for those actually interested in the discussion.

 

Ok, or do I have to get angry with the lot of you?

[Luckers]

You're right Maj. I'm out, with apologies.

 

 

[Green Witch]

I don't think Shivan will be born until after TG. As far as timelines go, did the Age of Legends end with LTT and the companions trying to seal the bore or was it with the breaking of the world? Was the war at the Age of Legends that age's TG? The questions go toward my theory that Shivan and his sister won't be born until after TG. I think the age ended with the breaking of the world. So Shivan was born after LTT went to SG.

 

But here's another question that has me wondering, If we live in the first age and we have a history of 6K years, and Rand's time has a 3K year history, are the ages not equal in length? How long was the Age of Legends? Was the Age of legends the 2nd Age or is it the beginning of the third age? You know, like BC and AD? Is this answered in the big white book?

[mb]

I don't think Shivan will be born until after TG. As far as timelines go, did the Age of Legends end with LTT and the companions trying to seal the bore or was it with the breaking of the world? Was the war at the Age of Legends that age's TG? The questions go toward my theory that Shivan and his sister won't be born until after TG. I think the age ended with the breaking of the world. So Shivan was born after LTT went to SG.

 

But here's another question that has me wondering, If we live in the first age and we have a history of 6K years, and Rand's time has a 3K year history, are the ages not equal in length? How long was the Age of Legends? Was the Age of legends the 2nd Age or is it the beginning of the third age? You know, like BC and AD? Is this answered in the big white book?

 

Age of Legends I take to have ended at the end of the Breaking (which was when the last male Aes Sedia died).

That Age the Encyclopaedia site identifies as the Second Age.

 

[Mr Ares]

Was the Age of legends the 2nd Age or is it the beginning of the third age?

There was a theory a while back (search for it if you're interested) that the AoL was the first half of the Third Age. One point of evidence brought forward was that the books never identify the AoL as the 2nd Age. There were a couple of other things for it, as well.