Questions on the nature of Slayer *spoilers through book 9*

[ksbsnowowl]

I'm in the midst of rereading the series, and as I've now come to WH, some of my prior understandings of the nature of Slayer and his dual existence have been shown to be incorrect.  Really all I'm doing here is thinking out loud, and asking for any references I may have missed that grant more info on his unique dual nature.

 

What I had previously understood, and what all the evidence prior to Winter's Heart shows, was that Luc only "dominated" in the waking world, while Isam was the form Slayer took in the world of dreams.  Also, any injury done to one, is also reflected in the other (The Shadow Rising, when Perrin shoots slayer and Lord Luc is then injured in the waking world).

 

In Winter's Heart we see that his dual nature is much more flexible via two instances.  In chapter 10 (A Plan Succeeds) the supergirls are meeting in the TAR royal palace in Caemlyn, and they see a man who they would describe as Rand's uncle (Luc) in TAR.  Later on we get a POV from Slayer as he tries to assassinate Rand in Far Madding (chapter 22, Out of Thin Air).  In this POV, we see Slayer morph from Isam into Luc as he enters the waking world, but then we see him return to Tel'aran'rhiod and remain Luc.  We then see him change back to Isam while remaining in TAR.

 

Among his more flexible nature, we learn that Slayer's two halves share memories of the experiences Slayer has had, but they do not both experience the events as they happen; only the "dominant" personality actually experiences what is happening.

 

Is there any other power or property of Slayer's dual nature that I've missed?

 

As a side note, I just realized that the assassination attempt shows us that the Guardian of Far Madding does not fully replicate the properties of a Stedding.  Stedding cannot be entered in TAR (in fact, the space of a stedding may not even exist in TAR, I'm not sure).  Upon completion of the failed assassination attempt, Slayer returns to TAR in the room of the hotel in Far Madding, and his patron is waiting for him.  The patron is wrapped in the power in some fashion, and the patron then opens a gateway from the TAR hotel room to a snowy glade (which brings up a question of its own - I didn't realize a bridge between the waking and dream worlds could transverse space as well as "dimension," though we may have seen it with some of the Forsaken coffee hour scenes.)

 

This also shows that either the Guardian's blocking of the One Power does not extend to TAR, or that the patron of Slayer in this scene is wielding the True Power.

 

Sorry for rambling; it's late here.

[Guest Dreadlord]

This is how I see it. Luc died in the Blight and Isam lives. Slayer is basically Isam, with the ability to change into Luc. He must change in the world of dreams. As an entity, Slayer is a single person all the time, and whichever body he is using he still follows the same motives and such like, yet his personality reflects that of the body he is using. Likes, dislikes etc change when he switches. He switches bodies within the world of dreams, and can appear as Isam or Luc in the world of dreams or the real world, but he must be in the world of dreams to change. Memories are not hidden from either, because they are both the same person now. He does have other abilities, we saw this in his POV as Isam I think, yet he doesnt go into detail about these abilities other than saying immunity to poison is not among the list.

 

The part about Far Madding not fully replicating a stedding doesnt make sense to me, why would you think it would affect Slayer? He doesnt use the Power at all.

[ksbsnowowl]

The part about Far Madding not fully replicating a stedding doesnt make sense to me, why would you think it would affect Slayer? He doesnt use the Power at all.

It would affect Slayer simply in the fact that a stedding essentially does not exist as a part of TAR.  Similar to how Rhuidean could not be entered in TAR, a stedding cannot be entered in TAR (I forget where this is mentioned in the books, but it is).  In the Slayer POV, he is in Far Madding, in TAR.  If, for example, Far Madding had been built inside a natural Stedding, Slayer could not enter it in TAR.  Thus, this is a difference from a real stedding.

 

Also, we then see a channeler, in the Far Madding of TAR, using the Power (or possibly the True Power.)

[Guest Dreadlord]

Ah yes I remember. The incedent when someone used the Power was Nynaeve using a Well, which stores some of the Power (as in it has been drawn from the Source and held, until it is used) to lift Rand and Lan. I wonder if Wells work in Stedding as well??? If not then no, Far Madding isnt exactly like a Stedding but theres no way to be sure I think

[ksbsnowowl]

Ah yes I remember. The incedent when someone used the Power was Nynaeve using a Well...

No offense, but you aren't paying attention.  The part with someone using the Power within Far Madding (as it exists in the World of Dreams) that I am talking about is during the same Slayer POV I mentioned earlier.  Slayer kills the old couple that are in the room in Far Madding that Rand had vacated.  He then immediately returns to TAR, in the same room's reflection in TAR, and a channeler is waiting for him there.  This patron is wrapped in the power in some way, and then opens a gateway while in the Far Madding of Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

This indicates one of three things:

 

1) This forsaken has a Well

2) The Guardian's inhibition of channeling is not reflected in TAR

3) This forsaken was wielding the True Power (assuming a stedding/the Guardian does not block True Power use)

[Ahaz Flagg]

Well I think you are confused as to what the Ter'Angreal's in Far Madding do, they act like a stedding in that you can not channel.  I do not remember which Aes Sedai told that sea folk channeler that. go back and read it, she did not say it was a stedding.  And since no Aes Sedai could study the Ter'Angreal, no one knows for certian what it can and cannot do.  The city of Far Madding is not like a stedding at all.  You simply cannot channel there, so in this case Far Madding can certianly be enetered through TAR.   

 

There is no proof that the Ter'Angreal would work in TAR, so i think this just a simple case of An Aes Sedai, stating somethig through ignorance.*big suprise there eh?* So it does not mean that Deamndred or Moridan had to have a well, not sure which Chosen it was, but i am pretty certian it was Moridan, but not 100% sure on that.

 

EDIT:::

I guess we should be more clear here, you cannot draw on the True Source in the city, has it has been proved you can certianly channel in the city.

[ksbsnowowl]

True, it is obvious that it does not fully replicate a stedding.  It's just that it was a new revelation to me (and I suspect many others hadn't picked up on it either).  It is interesting that the Guardian's effects aren't reflected in TAR.  Since it is a ter'angreal effect, rather than a natural one, I suppose it does make sense that it isn't reflected in TAR, but at the same time, TAR copies and reflects what really exists in the waking world, even man-made things.  It makes one wonder why a lasting effect in the real world wouldn't be reflected in TAR.

 

At the least it is an interesting and somewhat unexpected interaction.

[Ahaz Flagg]

True, it is obvious that it does not fully replicate a stedding.  It's just that it was a new revelation to me (and I suspect many others hadn't picked up on it either).  It is interesting that the Guardian's effects aren't reflected in TAR.  Since it is a ter'angreal effect, rather than a natural one, I suppose it does make sense that it isn't reflected in TAR, but at the same time, TAR copies and reflects what really exists in the waking world, even man-made things.  It makes one wonder why a lasting effect in the real world wouldn't be reflected in TAR.

 

At the least it is an interesting and somewhat unexpected interaction.

 

You may be right on the well, we just do not have enough information to judge it.  We do know Mordian new that the Super Girls were getting away with Ter'Angreal, and we know they did not empty the warhouse store. So who can say what was left behind.

 

There is the fact that we know Ter'Angreal do work in TAR, remeber that they use the dream Ter'Angreal, and Egwene almost got lost in the Access key Ter'Angreal.  So this is certinaly an issue that needs more information to be clear.

 

I never thought alot on it to be honest, but it does make you think.

[lordofsoup]

book 4 slayer/Luc kills Rand's father

 

kinda ironic

[ksbsnowowl]

book 4 slayer/Luc kills Rand's father

Tam is still alive...

 

If you mean Rand's biological father... I don't recall how he died.  I'll have to dig out my copy of TSR.  I'm assuming this is something Rand learned from the wise ones?

[Hybrid]

book 4 slayer/Luc kills Rand's father

Tam is still alive...

 

If you mean Rand's biological father... I don't recall how he died.  I'll have to dig out my copy of TSR.  I'm assuming this is something Rand learned from the wise ones?

 

lordofsoup is correct.  According to the Wise Ones (or one of the Aiel, I forget who exactly), Janduin met a man in the Blight who was so like Shaiel that he would not harm him even though the man attacked him.  Three guesses who this guy is, and the first two don't count.

[ksbsnowowl]

lordofsoup is correct.  According to the Wise Ones (or one of the Aiel, I forget who exactly), Janduin met a man in the Blight who was so like Shaiel that he would not harm him even though the man attacked him.  Three guesses who this guy is, and the first two don't count.

Ah, very interesting.

 

See, this is why one needs to visit boards such as this - there are just so many complexities and little details to the series that no single person can expect himself to notice or remember them all.

[Hybrid]

lordofsoup is correct.  According to the Wise Ones (or one of the Aiel, I forget who exactly), Janduin met a man in the Blight who was so like Shaiel that he would not harm him even though the man attacked him.  Three guesses who this guy is, and the first two don't count.

Ah, very interesting.

 

See, this is why one needs to visit boards such as this - there are just so many complexities and little details to the series that no single person can expect himself to notice or remember them all.

Agreed.  I've got a pretty good memory, so I remember most of the facts.  On the other hand, I haven't reread in a while, so I forget a lot of the subtleties that people tie into their theories.

[lordofsoup]

ya i am rereading all of the books again, and i am amazed how many important details that I missed in only the first 4 books, like you cant enter the tower of genji in the world of dreams (perrin wheh he meets brigitte)

[Luckers]

No offense, but you aren't paying attention.  The part with someone using the Power within Far Madding (as it exists in the World of Dreams) that I am talking about is during the same Slayer POV I mentioned earlier.  Slayer kills the old couple that are in the room in Far Madding that Rand had vacated.  He then immediately returns to TAR, in the same room's reflection in TAR, and a channeler is waiting for him there.  This patron is wrapped in the power in some way, and then opens a gateway while in the Far Madding of Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

This indicates one of three things:

 

1) This forsaken has a Well

2) The Guardian's inhibition of channeling is not reflected in TAR

3) This forsaken was wielding the True Power (assuming a stedding/the Guardian does not block True Power use)

 

Well now, what an interesting little scene. Great catch, I never paused to think about it.

 

I will add though that I believe RJ once said the True Power cannot be channelers in a stedding--can't find the quote so I'm not one hundred percent, but i have a memory of it. I think it was in one of the blog postings.

[ksbsnowowl]

I will add though that I believe RJ once said the True Power cannot be channelers in a stedding--can't find the quote so I'm not one hundred percent, but i have a memory of it. I think it was in one of the blog postings.

Cool, and it would make sense.  But, I don't think it would apply in the case of the Guardian.  The Guardian (via its design) obviously actively "targets" both Saidin and Saidar separately, as the Saidar-blocked zone is smaller than the Saidin-blocked zone.  In that way, it is very distinctly different from a Stedding.  Also, it seems that the True Power is something mostly unknown (as only 29 people ever have been granted access to it).  Thus, I posit that the designers of the Guardian did not know of the True Power, and thus didn't design it to block the TP.

 

However, this doesn't prove that the Forsaken in the Slayer POV chapter was wielding the True Power; in fact, I think the evidence shows that it was not the True Power being used by that channeler.  Recall that the channeler leaves Slayer's presence by making a Gateway.  Now, recall from the Moridin POV when he was eaves-dropping on "Caddar" (ie-Sammael with Sevannah), one does not make a gateway to Travel with the True Power.  Rather, you tear a hole in the pattern.  Also, from the Dragonmount prologue of EotW, we get a glimmer that traveling in such a way causes the TP-using Traveler to simply wink out and "vanish."  It does not make a "conventional" Gateway.

 

Thus, my previous 3 hypotheses can be pared down to two.  The Forsaken had a Well, or the Guardian's effects are not reflected in TAR.

 

[Martele dAcre]

This thread has certainly taken many paths. ???

 

It seems to me that Slayer is Luc and Isam combined. I don't know how that happened but it did when they were both in The Blight. I think both died and one entity was resurrected. He (it) can switch at will.

 

As to the assignation at Far Madding I always thought it was Lan and Nyneave that Slayer was attempting to kill. I best re-read that part and check out the family tree as to whether said cousin or nephew.

[ksbsnowowl]

As to the assignation at Far Madding I always thought it was Lan and Nyneave that Slayer was attempting to kill. I best re-read that part and check out the family tree as to whether said cousin or nephew.

He changed into Luc, and thought it fitting for the murder of his nephew.

[Guest Dreadlord]

I explained earlier that Luc and Isam are both one being now. One died, one lived, yet both are. Isam lived I reckon, otherwise the Trollocs looking for him would have shouted Luc, and Moridin also declares that Isam was sent after the renegade ie Padan Fain. Isam, and not Luc. Luc died, Isam now uses Luc as a guise, but Luc is 100% dead.

[ksbsnowowl]

Luc died, Isam now uses Luc as a guise, but Luc is 100% dead.

 

I doubt that.  The reason coming from the Slayer POV itself.  Slayer (as Luc) mentions that he has the memories of killing the two Black Ajah Aes Sedai in the Stone, even though he himself did not experience it (Isam did it).  He also mentions that Isam enjoys killing wolves more than he does.  They are still two individual personalities with differing likes and dislikes.  And one does not actually experience what the other does, though he does have memories of it.

[Hybrid]

Maybe Slayer is a prototype for body/soul merging...  I don't know whether I believe this or not, but there is a viewing about merging...  *cough, cough*

[Luckers]

Thus, my previous 3 hypotheses can be pared down to two.  The Forsaken had a Well, or the Guardian's effects are not reflected in TAR.

 

I'm inclined to agree. A fourth, if somewhat unlikely option is that it might be a weaving of the dream itself--we saw Moghedian create dream representations of entire villiages including galloping horses and interaction people. We even know gateways are not, in and off themselves, a function of the power, so someone who understood the physics of their existence could theoretically will one into existence in TAR.

 

Still it seems way too elaborate. My guess is one of your two options are the case. We need more information.

 

Maybe Slayer is a prototype for body/soul merging...  I don't know whether I believe this or not, but there is a viewing about merging...  *cough, cough*

 

Soul manipulation and intergration is actually pretty common throughout the world--mordeths soul survived his death for thousands of years to insert itself into fain, dreamwalkers souls leave their bodies all the time, and can pull out the souls of others. Machin Shin seems to be made of disembodied souls--it certainly consumes them. We've even seen ter'angreal capable of removing souls, thus it can be done with the power.

 

What happened to Slayer is unique in the specifics, but in the overall scheme of the soulstate in WoT it's not that startling.

[Hybrid]

Soul manipulation and intergration is actually pretty common throughout the world--mordeths soul survived his death for thousands of years to insert itself into fain, dreamwalkers souls leave their bodies all the time, and can pull out the souls of others. Machin Shin seems to be made of disembodied souls--it certainly consumes them. We've even seen ter'angreal capable of removing souls, thus it can be done with the power.

 

What happened to Slayer is unique in the specifics, but in the overall scheme of the soulstate in WoT it's not that startling.

 

True.  It was a spur of the moment thought.  It's just that when I think of Min's description of the viewing concerning Rand and the merging thing it seems like a good fit to the Dark Prophecy bit about Slayer.  The wording I think matches better than the body swap theory.  The trick then is how the other viewings/prophecies/dreams fit in...

 

Min's viewing:

[ACOS: 33, A Bath, 526]

 

    RAND: I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and....one of you dies, and one doesn't."

 

Dark Prophecy:

[TGH: 7, Blood Calls Blood, 89]

 

Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.

Isam waited in the high passes.

The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now course, and kill.

One did live, and one did die, but both are.

The Time of Change has come.

[Durinax]

[ACOS: 33, A Bath, 526]

 

    RAND: I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and....one of you dies, and one doesn't."

I believe this has nothing to do with Isam/Luc but in fact has to do with Lews Therin and Rand because if you recal at first Rand and Lews Therin couldnt interact inside of his head but slowly they begin to merge and share control over Rand in a fashion. This leads me to believe that Rand will survive the last battle BUT his blood will be spilled on Thakadur (think thats right) and Lews Therin will be purged from his body

[TGH: 7, Blood Calls Blood, 89]

 

Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.

Isam waited in the high passes.

The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now course, and kill.

One did live, and one did die, but both are.

The Time of Change has come.

if you recall in the second book when this is told to Moraine she reveals that Isam is Lans cousin, the one whose parents betrays Malkier. And Luc is Tigraines' (Rands mother) brother who goes into the blight after Tigraine flees to the waste. And since I interpretted it this way that Isam was caught and converted then he captured Luc and Shai'tan distilled and combined the two (also explains odd powers a bit)

[Luckers]

I believe this has nothing to do with Isam/Luc but in fact has to do with Lews Therin and Rand because if you recal at first Rand and Lews Therin couldnt interact inside of his head but slowly they begin to merge and share control over Rand in a fashion. This leads me to believe that Rand will survive the last battle BUT his blood will be spilled on Thakadur (think thats right) and Lews Therin will be purged from his body

 

That doesn't have anything to do with Slayer--but Hybrid wasn't suggesting that, he was drawing a comparison between what people are suggesting will happen between Rand and Moridin with what happened between Isam and Luc.

 

And Min expresses doubt that the vision refers to LTT.