Male Aiel Channelers

[Tyrell]

Do we have any indication that any male channelers have been discovered amungst the Aiel? We know that there are male Aiel sparkers, who are told that they have been chosen fight against the Dark One and sent to die fighting in the great blight, so surely there are male learners too amungst the Aiel. Is there, then, any indication that this resource has been tapped? If not, then why not?

 

-Tyrell

[mb]

If Aielmen channelers are being used, I think there would be Aiel Ashaman; I am not sure if there is or is not.

Since the Aiel (except for Shaido) already follow Rand, I am not sure if any desire to be tested in Saidin.

It might also relate to who is training the Ashaman.

Another reason could be the fact that the female Aiel channelers do not go to either Aes Sedia tower for training.

Edit:: One more reason could be either Aes Sedia tower's involvement with the Black Tower.

 

[Luckers]

It's possible. If Westlander darkfriends are being tested for the ability (which between Taim and Liandrin we have reason to suspect) its possible that darkfriends elsewhere are.

 

But non-darkfriend learners... no, thats unlikely in a culture where men who learn they can channel freely go to their own deaths. Even approaching one about it would likely be suicide.

 

[Roxinos]

Even approaching one about it would likely be suicide.

 

You'd think so, but Rand has introduced a lot into the Aiel culture which once would have been rejected violently.

[Valinthros]

But non-darkfriend learners... no, thats unlikely in a culture where men who learn they can channel freely go to their own deaths. Even approaching one about it would likely be suicide.

 

Though I do agree because of their cultural mindset that it's very unlikely, if the Taveren effect has anything to do with it, I would 'guess' that there would be at least one.  And it's quite sad IMO, the fact that they willingly go to their death's.  A necessary sadness in the past and it's going to be a hard one to beat out of the Aiel.  ;(

[Luckers]

It might be possible for Asha'men to approach them, but they arn't. And the only other group that would be trying is the shadow.

[Valinthros]

It's hard to say where they're _not_ recruiting.  We can of course assume the dark is looking all over, I agree with that.

 

If I might be so bold as to say so, it looks like you're on the fence on this one as well Luckers.

[Luckers]

Indeed, but only for the shadow. I don't see anyone else recruiting Aiel men.

 

Ultimately i think the Wise Ones will be the one to address this. Once they learn the taint has been cleansed unlike the Aes Sedai i imagine their first thought will be for the wellbeing of their people--specifically those men.

[Valinthros]

Indeed, but only for the shadow. I don't see anyone else recruiting Aiel men.

 

Agreed.  Though I'm not sure why exactly, there's no evidence that specifically states they arent recruiting among the Aiel.  My take would likely be a hostility issue.  However, I'm still on the fence on this one because as Rand wanted it, it's an open book.  Meaning any Aiel male could have just walked into the BT and asked to be tested.  The only reasoning I could put forth would be Taveren effect.  Other than that it's baseless.

 

Ultimately i think the Wise Ones will be the one to address this. Once they learn the taint has been cleansed unlike the Aes Sedai i imagine their first thought will be for the wellbeing of their people--specifically those men.

 

Agreed.

[Luckers]

Agreed.  Though I'm not sure why exactly, there's no evidence that specifically states they arent recruiting among the Aiel.  My take would likely be a hostility issue.  However, I'm still on the fence on this one because as Rand wanted it, it's an open book.  Meaning any Aiel male could have just walked into the BT and asked to be tested.  The only reasoning I could put forth would be Taveren effect.  Other than that it's baseless.

 

They could have walked in, but based on their culture i don't see it. They don't hate or fear men channeling like Westlanders do, but it does have a specific place within ji'e'toh.

 

Beyond that, im fairly sure we would have heard if the Asha'men were recruiting from the Aiel--the Wise Ones would have made a fuss.

 

 

[Valinthros]

Beyond that, im fairly sure we would have heard if the Asha'men were recruiting from the Aiel--the Wise Ones would have made a fuss.

 

Good point.

[Kaznen]

All the wise ones who channel are sparkers, not learners.  They don't test to see who can channel if they are taught.

 

The fate of the males with the spark was more because of the taint then anything else.

 

Sending a male wilder into the blight to wreak havoc on the shadow seems like a good way to make lemons into lemonade.

[triadruid]

All the wise ones who channel are sparkers, not learners.  They don't test to see who can channel if they are taught.

Are you sure on this? This doesn't seem to match with the number of Aiel channelers (Wise Ones) that Egwene believes are out there (LOC, Chapter 37).

 

I mean, I suppose it's possible that the Aiel sparkers outnumber the Aes Sedai simply because they don't die prematurely, but if that's what you're basing that statement on, Egwene doesn't say anything about not teaching learners, only that they don't miss a single sparker.

[Kaznen]

The Aiel wise ones don't remove themselves from the gene pool the way AS do.  A AS having children is very very rare.  But every wise one has been married at some point at least once and has had children of their own.

[Luckers]

All the wise ones who channel are sparkers, not learners.  They don't test to see who can channel if they are taught.

 

Actually that is incorrect, the Wise Ones do test for learners, and claim that they find every single one--and given what we've seen of their efficiency i don't doubt it.

 

Sending a male wilder into the blight to wreak havoc on the shadow seems like a good way to make lemons into lemonade.

 

Unless those men are being captured and turned to the Shadow, which is possible.

[Tyrell]

Unless those men are being captured and turned to the Shadow, which is possible.

 

That would require 13 darkfriend female channelers to converge on the unfortunate guy, along with 13 myrddraal. Something which I would think would be really rather difficult to arrange in a world without Travelling.

[Kaznen]

All the wise ones who channel are sparkers, not learners.  They don't test to see who can channel if they are taught.

 

Actually that is incorrect, the Wise Ones do test for learners, and claim that they find every single one--and given what we've seen of their efficiency i don't doubt it.

 

No they find every sparker, which the AS fail to do, and because they find everyone and train them no sparker dies from learning how to channel on their own, like Moiraine told Nyn that it probally would happen to Egwene if she didn't go to TV.

[Roxinos]

No they find every sparker, which the AS fail to do, and because they find everyone and train them no sparker dies from learning how to channel on their own, like Moiraine told Nyn that it probally would happen to Egwene if she didn't go to TV.

 

He wasn't denying they find every sparker. He was saying they find every sparker and every woman who can be taught to channel.

 

Was Aviendha a sparker? I can't recall.

 

That would require 13 darkfriend female channelers to converge on the unfortunate guy, along with 13 myrddraal. Something which I would think would be really rather difficult to arrange in a world without Travelling.

 

That turns someone against their will. They could always just be captured and turned in a normal way. You know, convinced to join the Dark Side.

[Luckers]

That would require 13 darkfriend female channelers to converge on the unfortunate guy, along with 13 myrddraal. Something which I would think would be really rather difficult to arrange in a world without Travelling.

 

Not nessasarily, if those women simply stayed at Shayol Ghoul or nearby. After all the Aiel men would have to be gathered and housed somewhere anyway.

 

No they find every sparker, which the AS fail to do, and because they find everyone and train them no sparker dies from learning how to channel on their own, like Moiraine told Nyn that it probally would happen to Egwene if she didn't go to TV.

 

Umm... yes... and they also find every learner--or at least claim to, and once again given what we've seen of their efficiency i see no reason to doubt that claim.

 

Was Aviendha a sparker? I can't recall.

 

Yes, she was.

 

That turns someone against their will. They could always just be captured and turned in a normal way. You know, convinced to join the Dark Side.

 

That seems unreliable to me--especially given Aiel attitudes to channeling.

[Kaznen]

They don't look for learners.  Not every wise one channels.  But a larger population has the spark because the channelers have children who have children....

 

The wise ones don't hold the OP in such reverence as the AS, neither do the sea folk.

[Swigaro]

How could they help but search for learners?  As I understand it, women can sense the ability to channel in a women by simply being in their presence.  I apologize if I am mistaken, but Moirane knew that Nynaeve and Egwene could channel by simply being in there presence.  Granted, they are both sparkers, but she was still well aware that there were numerous other potential channelers in The Two Rivers.  There is no way the Aiel Wise Ones could find all the sparkers without finding all the learners.  They don't destinguish between the two, because no Aiel sparker ever dies because they have to learn to channel on there own.  You are correct in saying that not every wise one can channel, but every Aiel woman who can channel is a wise one.  That is why the wise ones didn't care that Avhienda wanted to remain a Maiden.  She chould channel, she had no choice.

[Kaznen]

When a women starts to channel, all women who can channel can sense that.  Because sparkers will channel women who can channel can sense it.

 

Learners can live their whole lives without touching, feeling, or channeling the OP.  Until they do, they can not be sensed.

 

The argument has been made that Mat can learn to channel because Bode (his sister) has the spark, and Taim brought back a lot of men from the Two Rivers.

 

Alaana and Verin found a lot of girls who can learn but only two or three sparkers on their trip.  The learners most likely approached the AS. 

[Roxinos]

They don't look for learners.  Not every wise one channels.  But a larger population has the spark because the channelers have children who have children....

 

The wise ones don't hold the OP in such reverence as the AS, neither do the sea folk.

 

Yes, yes they do. The Aiel do not hold the OP in such reverence as the AS, but they still look for those who can channel because they are useful. But you seem to be making a false distinction. Channeling is not a requirement for becoming a Wise One, no one has said that. But women are tested to see if they can learn to channel and they are taught.

 

I don't understand why you believe that the Aiel do not search for people who can learn to channel in their ranks.

[Luckers]

They don't look for learners.  Not every wise one channels.  But a larger population has the spark because the channelers have children who have children....

 

The wise ones don't hold the OP in such reverence as the AS, neither do the sea folk.

 

Umm, Kaznen, it's stated in the text that they do look for learners--and find them all. I'm not assuming this because they have a lot of channelers, im stating this as fact because they've stated it as fact.

 

Now there is room to doubt their assertion that they find all those with the ability to learn--we have no factual evidence on that, just their word. But once more given their display of efficiency i see no reason to doubt their assertion. They don't seem much given to baseless bragging. Beyond which consider how easy it would be for them to test every girl--there is at least one Wise One who can channel in each hold, they need simply take the girl to her when she is around twelve and presto. An easily sustained method of testing every girl. 

 

But whether they train every one of them or not, there is no room to doubt that they do search for, and find learners.

 

[Kaznen]

They don't look for learners.  Not every wise one channels.  But a larger population has the spark because the channelers have children who have children....

 

The wise ones don't hold the OP in such reverence as the AS, neither do the sea folk.

 

Umm, Kaznen, it's stated in the text that they do look for learners--and find them all. I'm not assuming this because they have a lot of channelers, im stating this as fact because they've stated it as fact.

 

Now there is room to doubt their assertion that they find all those with the ability to learn--we have no factual evidence on that, just their word. But once more given their display of efficiency i see no reason to doubt their assertion. They don't seem much given to baseless bragging. Beyond which consider how easy it would be for them to test every girl--there is at least one Wise One who can channel in each hold, they need simply take the girl to her when she is around twelve and presto. An easily sustained method of testing every girl. 

 

But whether they train every one of them or not, there is no room to doubt that they do search for, and find learners.

 

 

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