Is Rand al'Thor a Marty Stu?

[Spectrum]

Hello.

 

I am an aspiring writer myself. It has dawned on me that one of my main characters is a major Marty Stu. In an attempt to gauge the potential problems inherent in this, and ways around them, I am looking at some similar characters in other people's works with potential Mary Sue/Marty Stu traits for comparison. Rand al'Thor from Whel of Time is one such similar character.

 

(For those who don't know what a Mary Sue/Marty Stu is, click the links above.)

 

I sent Rand through a "Universal Mary Sue Litmus Test", and he scored (by my estimates) 61 points, which made the test advise me to "Kill it dead". :P

 

So... do you believe that Rand is a Marty Stu character? Why or why not? And if yes, what are the consequences of this, in your opinion?

 

Thanks.

 

[Fryn]

If you compare Rand to the real world there is a slight, and I mean slight, posibility it could be in the category. He really doesnt fit all of the criteria, especially the cool guy portions. In fact he is despised by many characters in the story.

 

Once you remember that WoT is fantasy and you compare Rand to the other charaters in the story it just doesn't match up at all. While he has equal power (compared to ishy), he lacks the knowledge of all of the main villans of the story. There are only a few times he has displayed superhuman traits was when he was using the eye of the world, which was explained through the story, and is a 1 off, and while channeling with the link to the 2 largest angrel on the planet. Which could be done by any channeler with enough base control over the source.

 

I would say if any of the characters fit the role it would be Mat, and I wouldn't clasify him as one either.

[Toy and Minion]

Not to mention, he's just about as mad as they come (according to semi).

 

If there was a Marty Stu/Mary Sue in the books, I'd have to say Rand, Mat, and Perrin.  In other words, a an very weak Marty Stu distributed between three characters in the form of Ta'veeren.  Of course, it's not a complete advantage.  Miasma, anyone...anyone...Beuller?

 

My two cents.

[Mr Ares]

From Wikipedia:

Mary Sue, sometimes shortened simply to Sue, is a pejorative term used to describe a fictional character who plays a major role in the plot and is particularly characterized by overly idealized and clichéd mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as wish-fulfillment fantasies for their authors. Perhaps the single underlying feature of all characters described as "Mary Sues" is that they are too ostentatious for the audience's taste, or that the author seems to favor the character too highly. The author may seem to push how exceptional and wonderful the "Mary Sue" character is on his or her audience, sometimes leading the audience to dislike or even resent the character fairly quickly; such a character could be described as an "author's pet".

"Mary Sues" can be either male or female, but male characters are often dubbed "Gary Stu" or similar names

I don't really see that as applying to Rand. In fact, Rand sometimes seems more like the authors whipping boy - mad(ish), one-handed, despised by many, few friends/people he can trust. He's also a tyrant who has thrown tantrums when he hasn't (or has, as the case may be) got his own way, nd expresses a wish to control everything. By any reasonable measure, Rand is no Gary Stu.

[Fryn]

I thought about it some more. I think the only character that fills the bill would be Cadsuanne

[Hybrid]

The thing is, this character role is used often because it works.  The character has to start off at a position of disadvantage (orphan, etc.) to get the reader's sympathy.  But the character has to have some superhuman ability and/or an extreme learning curve, otherwise he/she will be too weak to do anything.  Most of the other traits can be explained in the same way.  The point of the character stereotype is to make sure that you don't take it to the extreme, as many books and movies have done.  Rand shares many of these traits, but I don't believe he can be labeled as a Marty Stu.  Plus, Robert Jordan has plenty of ways of explaining these traits - ta'vereness, soul of LTT, etc., which is always nice.

 

As a side note, I thought the Katanas Are Always Better to be funny, because it's true.  Katanas were among the best weapons available at the time, and they were the weapon of choice of what can be seen as an idealistic warrior culture.  Also, its design makes it so that not every person can use it well.  Plus, it just looks more elegant than claymores and broadswords do.

[Mr Ares]

I thought about it some more. I think the only character that fills the bill would be Cadsuane

Any particular reason why?

[Ashaman Kovan]

Even if Rand was categorized like this (Which I don't think fits at all) isn't a "Marty Stu" in any type of fantasy story almost unavoidable? I mean sure you could make him just like every other guy and have no special traits, or "Upgraded" abilities. What fun would he be then? If you want books like that go read....IDK Encyclopedia Brown. His only specialty is solving mysteries. Either way though my point is so what if Rand is a "Marty stu" he's still a badass character and his flaws and his ummm...Advantages? Are necessary to the story.

[Fryn]

I thought about it some more. I think the only character that fills the bill would be Cadsuane

Any particular reason why?

 

Everyone in the story is in awe of her even if they have never met her (the whole everyone likes them thing). Cadsaunne can't do anything wrong, and never shows a flaw. And lastly while she does things the other channelers don't (and fits the superhuman traits based on actions better than others).

 

It's pretty obvious she was one of RJ's favorite character, and seems to be the only character that won't show a flaw or be one upped by another character in the series. Nothing wrong with it though, and I get the feeling she was based on RJ's wife so it is kind of to be expected.

[Mr Ares]

Even if Rand was categorized like this (Which I don't think fits at all) isn't a "Marty Stu" in any type of fantasy story almost unavoidable?

No, not at all. Simply being "powered-up" doesn't make a character a Gary Stu. A Gary Stu reflects said powered-up characters role within the story. If everybody loves the character, for example. If the character is presented as perfect. If the character ends up doing everything himself, if he never screws up, if he is presented as an idealized author substitute, all these things are examples of Gary Stu tendencies. This is far from unavoidable for a good author (and I think most of us can agree that RJ is, at the very least, good). Rand is a flawed character. He cannot save the world by himself. A lot of people dislike him - even people on his own side. And if Rand is an idealized author substitute, then RJ had some problems. So Rand is far from a Gary Stu. Likewise Perrin. Look at what he did to that Aielman in CoT, just before he gave up his axe. Or convincing Aram to ditch the Way of the Leaf but not supporting him after that, leaving him open to Masema. You can go through for pretty much any character in WoT and find their flaws. None of them is perfect.

 

I thought about it some more. I think the only character that fills the bill would be Cadsuane

Any particular reason why?

Everyone in the story is in awe of her even if they have never met her (the whole everyone likes them thing). Cadsaune can't do anything wrong, and never shows a flaw. And lastly while she does things the other channelers don't (and fits the superhuman traits based on actions better than others).

There is a difference between being in awe of someone and likeing them. Most Aes Sedai have heard of Cadsuane as a living legend (or not so living, they think). She has a long list of accomplishments. When she shows up she gets a lot of respect from the awestruck hero-worshipping idiots that comprise most of the AS she meets, and she treats them like crap. She gives them the respect she thinks they are due (not much). But how many of those AS actually like her? She has taken on tasks she couldn't accomplish in the past, but not in a long time. At one point she threatens Min, and Rand snaps at her for it. She is not incapable of making mistakes, and she can get on peoples bad sides. She is a good person, but at times not a particularly nice one. Her job is not to save the world from Shai'tan, but she has taken on the task of saving it from Rand, but noone said she could accomplish that alone. I don't really see the athor favouring her unduly. I'm far from convinced of Cadsuane's status as such, especially given that she is not one of the main characters (although she is important). This is not Cadsuane's story, nor is it treated as such.

 

It's pretty obvious she was one of RJ's favorite character, and seems to be the only character that won't show a flaw or be one upped by another character in the series. Nothing wrong with it though, and I get the feeling she was based on RJ's wife so it is kind of to be expected.

All the women were based on RJ's wife, so nothing special about Cadsuane in this respect.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Mary Sue, sometimes shortened simply to Sue, is a pejorative term used to describe a fictional character who plays a major role in the plot and is particularly characterized by overly idealized and clichéd mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as wish-fulfillment fantasies for their authors. Perhaps the single underlying feature of all characters described as "Mary Sues" is that they are too ostentatious for the audience's taste, or that the author seems to favor the character too highly. The author may seem to push how exceptional and wonderful the "Mary Sue" character is on his or her audience, sometimes leading the audience to dislike or even resent the character fairly quickly; such a character could be described as an "author's pet".

"Mary Sues" can be either male or female, but male characters are often dubbed "Gary Stu" or similar names

 

I certainly have never gotten the impression that RJ is attemting to show us how wonderfull Rand or any of his characters are.  In fact, if there is one thing that he is particularly good at it is emphasizing his characters' short commings.  I mean think about it,

 

Rand is an overprotective tyrant

Mat is self-centered and a bit cowardly (well, cowardly in the earlier books)

Perrin is whipped

Lan is moody

Elayne is arrogant

Egwene is egotistical

Nyneave is a bitch (and a bit of a know-it-all too)

 

Don't get me wrong, I love all of these characters but they do some glaring shortcommings.

[Silver]

All the women in the books are know-it-alls.