Why did Rochaid, Hopwil, Flinn and Narishma became deserters - Book 8

[fredprinz]

Hi,

 

I'd like to know what made Rochaid, Hopwil, Flinn, Narishma and the others decide to desert the Dragon Reborn on the last chapters of Book 8 - THe Path of Daggers?

 

Is there any explanation to their decision or was it because of the taint?

[Mysterious]

I assume it was because Taim put them on the Traitor's List.

 

 

 

 

Mysterious

[Guest Dreadlord]

Are you sure Rochaid did? Im sure he was one of the Darkfriend Ashaman

[Asmo]

EPIC SPOILER WARNING

 

They didn't really desert him. Rochaid, Torval, and Gedwyn were Darkfriend Asha'man with special instructions from Taim (who is also a Darkfriend) and Demandred as well as Moridin to kill Rand. The team included Dashiva (who is in fact Osan'gar, or Aginor reincarnated). After the failed attempt they fled. Dashiva went his own way, and the other three tried to assassinate Rand in Far Madding.

 

Hopwil, Flinn and Narishma had no part in the attack and didn't betray Rand. Taim declared them deserters because he wanted them out of the way, and because he could safely do so pretending ignorance since Rand didn't specify who exactly attacked him.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Ahaa yes I remember now, Taim added Rochaid to the list to cover his own back. Nice one

[trakand_01]

If I remember rightly, Narishma and Flinn were just doing as they were told.

 

When Rand finally caught up with the d/f asha'man at the bottom of the staircase and a power-fight ensued, Narishma and Flinn had hidden themselves behind something. Rand knew they were there with his good hearing etc, and told them to stay hidden, or take themselves away because he would attack anyone wearing black coats.

 

Then he fled/hid with Min before they had a chance to regroup.

[Mr Ares]

Rochaid, Torval, and Gedwyn were Darkfriend Asha'man with special instructions from Taim.

You forgot Kisman.

The team included Dashiva.

Strictly speaking, he wasn't part of the team, he just got in on the act.

[balefireruinssteaks]

this explains too why the Asha'man may have decided to allow the Aes Sedai to bond them as Warders.  They felt they had nowhere to return to since they were on the list of the Traitors and were not with the Dragon Reborn at the time.

[Asmo]

@Mr Ares:

You are right about Kisman, but I think Dashiva was assigned the task by Taim as well as the others. Later on, Kisman ponders whether Taim had killed Dashiva. If Dashiva had been acting on his own rather than on Taim's command, there was no apparent reason to assume that Taim would have killed him for failing to fulfill orders he had not given. And the other option would have been that Dashiva had run away. If he had sided with the Darkfriends of his own free will, there was no apparent reason for him to run away either. So for Kisman to assume that Dashiva had been killed by Taim or had run away, it stands to reason that Dashiva had been assigned to the assassination team along with the others. 

 

If I remember rightly, Narishma and Flinn were just doing as they were told.

 

When Rand finally caught up with the d/f asha'man at the bottom of the staircase and a power-fight ensued, Narishma and Flinn had hidden themselves behind something. Rand knew they were there with his good hearing etc, and told them to stay hidden, or take themselves away because he would attack anyone wearing black coats.

 

Then he fled/hid with Min before they had a chance to regroup.

 

Well, you don't remember very well. Rand encountered Dashiva and the others, and he and Dashiva tried to kill each other, but they failed, and Dashiva and the rest fled. After a while Rand met Flinn and Narishma, and as he was in a rage over the Asha'man in general, tried to kill them without thinking. But he knew he could trust the pair, so he calmed down, but still left them back when he went to Far Madding. Being branded as traitors by Taim, the two Asha'man had little choice but to seek out Rand, and Cadsuane blackmailed them into accepting the bond in return for their relative safety and taking them to where Rand was.

[trakand_01]

That's as may be, but I still recall him telling them to take themselves out of his way... There was a spoken dialogue, anyway, with them hidden.

[Mr Ares]

Asmo, your point may stand to reason (even if it's better to sit down to reason) but why is Taim giving orders to a Chosen? If Kisman is pondering the possibility of Taim offing Dashiva (Kisman would appear to be unaware of his Chosen status), why is it necessary for Taim to have ordered Dashiva in the first place? Maybe Kisman just thinks he did, because Dashiva got involved. Plus, this piece of evidence does seem to imply that he did it on his own merits, rather than orders from on high:

Week 21 Question: One thing that's always confused me is just why Dashiva/Osangar chose to attack Rand (with the turncoat Asha'man) when he did. The last time we saw Rand with Dashiva before that was when they went together (with Flinn, Hopwil and Morr) to confront Cadsuane, and there didn't seem to be any one particular incident that would "set him off."

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Partly this was guilty conscience working. Even people who don't have a conscience can have a guilty conscience, the sudden conviction - as when Rand came on Dashiva and the others - that somebody knows what they are up to. Add to this that Dashiva was plain getting tired of trailing around after Rand, taking orders. He's one of the Chosen, and the Dark One reclaimed him from death, which is really good, but he's been stuck in a decidedly second-rate body and stuck spying on Rand, fetching and carrying like a servant as he sees it, with hardly even an opportunity to put a spoke in Rand's wheels except in very minor ways. How much better if Rand simply died.

No mention there of Dashiva acting under orders, and it would have been reasonable to have mentioned it there.

[Asmo]

Asmo, your point may stand to reason (even if it's better to sit down to reason) but why is Taim giving orders to a Chosen?

 

1) Because Taim may be unaware that Dashiva is one of the Chosen.

 

2) Because Taim may be one of the Chosen in disguise.

 

3) Because Taim may be someone who has a higher status than one of the Chosen.

 

4) Because Taim may have been appointed by the Dark One or Moridin or Shaidar Haran or whoever as a replacement for one of the perished Chosen. Sort of like a Third Age Chosen, if you wish.

 

5) Because one of the Chosen may have given Dashiva a command to obey Taim.

 

It's not unfathomable for Taim to give orders to Dashiva in any circumstances.

 

If Kisman is pondering the possibility of Taim offing Dashiva (Kisman would appear to be unaware of his Chosen status), why is it necessary for Taim to have ordered Dashiva in the first place? Maybe Kisman just thinks he did, because Dashiva got involved.

 

It doesn't make much sense for Taim to kill an Asha'man of Dashiva's strength if he was proven a Darkfriend, if Taim was a Darkfriend himself. It would be like finding a Ferrari in your backyard and then blowing it up. Unless Dashiva had been ordered to do something else, and Taim was aware of it, so Taim would have a reason to kill Dashiva if he disobeyed, but it is unlikely that Kisman would be aware of it.

 

Plus, this piece of evidence does seem to imply that he did it on his own merits, rather than orders from on high:

Week 21 Question: One thing that's always confused me is just why Dashiva/Osangar chose to attack Rand (with the turncoat Asha'man) when he did. The last time we saw Rand with Dashiva before that was when they went together (with Flinn, Hopwil and Morr) to confront Cadsuane, and there didn't seem to be any one particular incident that would "set him off."

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Partly this was guilty conscience working. Even people who don't have a conscience can have a guilty conscience, the sudden conviction - as when Rand came on Dashiva and the others - that somebody knows what they are up to. Add to this that Dashiva was plain getting tired of trailing around after Rand, taking orders. He's one of the Chosen, and the Dark One reclaimed him from death, which is really good, but he's been stuck in a decidedly second-rate body and stuck spying on Rand, fetching and carrying like a servant as he sees it, with hardly even an opportunity to put a spoke in Rand's wheels except in very minor ways. How much better if Rand simply died.

No mention there of Dashiva acting under orders, and it would have been reasonable to have mentioned it there.

 

It's not really conclusive evidence. If Mr Jordan had the same thing on his mind when he wrote that part as I did when I read it (and I'm not in any way claiming that he actually did), he could have interpreted the question as why Dashiva, one of the Chosen, stooped to following an order from Taim and ganged up on Rand with the other Asha'man, when Moridin had not been very enthusiastic about killing Rand? The last we checked, the Chosen were taking orders from themselves and the Nae'blis, so since there was no reason for Osan'gar to be angry at Rand, and Moridin obviously doesn't want Rand dead, how come he accepted to join in the attempt to kill him? And of course, Mr Jordan's answer gives Dashiva a personal motive without hitting the nail of whether Taim did order him or not.

 

Anyway, that's just my interpretation.

[Mr Ares]

Asmo, your point may stand to reason (even if it's better to sit down to reason) but why is Taim giving orders to a Chosen?

1) Because Taim may be unaware that Dashiva is one of the Chosen.

So why would Dashiva follow the orders?

 

2) Because Taim may be one of the Chosen in disguise.

We know he isn't, and why would Dashiva believe him to be one?

 

3) Because Taim may be someone who has a higher status than one of the Chosen.

The naeblis and SH are the only things we know of that stand higher than Those Chosen to Rule the World. Taim is neither. Why would someone as arrogant as one of the Chosen believe someone stands higher than him or her without good reason? And we have no reason to believe that Taim does stand higher.

 

4) Because Taim may have been appointed by the Dark One or Moridin or Shaidar Haran or whoever as a replacement for one of the perished Chosen. Sort of like a Third Age Chosen, if you wish.

That wouldn't make him higher than Dashiva, so why would Dashiva take orders?

 

5) Because one of the Chosen may have given Dashiva a command to obey Taim.

The only good reason in the bunch - but it would have to be either Moridin or SH giving the "obey Taim" order.

 

If Kisman is pondering the possibility of Taim offing Dashiva (Kisman would appear to be unaware of his Chosen status), why is it necessary for Taim to have ordered Dashiva in the first place? Maybe Kisman just thinks he did, because Dashiva got involved.

It doesn't make much sense for Taim to kill an Asha'man of Dashiva's strength if he was proven a Darkfriend, if Taim was a Darkfriend himself. It would be like finding a Ferrari in your backyard and then blowing it up. Unless Dashiva had been ordered to do something else, and Taim was aware of it, so Taim would have a reason to kill Dashiva if he disobeyed, but it is unlikely that Kisman would be aware of it.

When was he proven a DF to Kisman? Or maybe Kisman thinks he was killed because he couldn't follow orders. Kisman sees Dashiva get involved, despite the fact that he wasn't told this guy was supposed to be getting involved. They do a runner, Dashiva doesn't go with them. What's he supposed to think? Dashiva could have gone nuts, or just been anti-Rand, or anything. He doesn't know why Dashiva is getting involved.

 

Plus, this piece of evidence does seem to imply that he did it on his own merits, rather than orders from on high:

Week 21 Question: One thing that's always confused me is just why Dashiva/Osangar chose to attack Rand (with the turncoat Asha'man) when he did. The last time we saw Rand with Dashiva before that was when they went together (with Flinn, Hopwil and Morr) to confront Cadsuane, and there didn't seem to be any one particular incident that would "set him off."

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Partly this was guilty conscience working. Even people who don't have a conscience can have a guilty conscience, the sudden conviction - as when Rand came on Dashiva and the others - that somebody knows what they are up to. Add to this that Dashiva was plain getting tired of trailing around after Rand, taking orders. He's one of the Chosen, and the Dark One reclaimed him from death, which is really good, but he's been stuck in a decidedly second-rate body and stuck spying on Rand, fetching and carrying like a servant as he sees it, with hardly even an opportunity to put a spoke in Rand's wheels except in very minor ways. How much better if Rand simply died.

No mention there of Dashiva acting under orders, and it would have been reasonable to have mentioned it there.

It's not really conclusive evidence. If Mr Jordan had the same thing on his mind when he wrote that part as I did when I read it (and I'm not in any way claiming that he actually did), he could have interpreted the question as why Dashiva, one of the Chosen, stooped to following an order from Taim and ganged up on Rand with the other Asha'man, when Moridin had not been very enthusiastic about killing Rand? The last we checked, the Chosen were taking orders from themselves and the Nae'blis, so since there was no reason for Osan'gar to be angry at Rand, and Moridin obviously doesn't want Rand dead, how come he accepted to join in the attempt to kill him? And of course, Mr Jordan's answer gives Dashiva a personal motive without hitting the nail of whether Taim did order him or not.

 

Anyway, that's just my interpretation.

Not totally conclusive, to be sure, but suggestive. No real implication of orders to Dashiva. Why not just say he was ordered? Why not say he was given orders by Taim and decided to follow them for that reason? To my mind, Dashiva being in on it just doesn't fit the facts. He was acting alone, for personal reasons, not on anyones orders. That's my interpretation.

[Asmo]

Actually, never mind. I just found a quote in tPoD that shows Taim completely dumbfounded by Dashiva's participation in the attack. While I could keep arguing for the points I made before, this part simply nailed the issue for me, so I would just be arguing for the sake of arguing, which is something I don't endorse. For the reasons Robert Jordan stated, Dashiva did act on his own. Well, at least not on Taim's orders.

[Luckers]

:)

 

Was what i was gonna say.