Rand will Face SH in the Final Battle...and SH will be the DO in the World......

[MatrixM]

That being said though, it is clear that Shaidar Haran has its own individuality to a point. It isnt simply an extension of the Dark One. I remember it feeling the need to be rid of the weakness it feels when away from Shayol Ghul. It seems like it has its own free will to a point, so maybe it might have its own goals although that doesnt mean I think its goal is killing Rand.

 

Removing that particular weakness would be very much in the DOs interest, so I do not see it as any sign of SH having a personality separate from what the DO projects into it. SH is the DOs possibility to move around in the world, so ensuring maximum mobility is obviously very much in the DOs interest.

Unless the Dark One loses his control over Shaidar Haran the further he is form the bore and so he made him get weaker so he can maintain control. It's possible.

[BlackveiledTaraboner]

Now SH and Fain facing off is something I didn't think of...that would be wicked awesome.

[Daphilip]

Problem with that is that SH fighting Rand would be like Tyson fighting a 12 year old. SH blocks channeling, and Rand is not exactly the swordsman he used to be. Add to that SH having some kind of "channeling" at its disposal.

 

Although, I do have my longstanding theory that SH and Rand will face off. SH toying with Rand, until Fain jumps out of the bushes, and stabs SH in the back.

 

 

I don't think you should underestimate Rands skill with a blade just because he's lost one hand. Rand's prowess with the sword doesn't come from the fact that he has two hands, sure it contributes, but it's just one of many factors that makes a blademaster.

 

I mean, Lan defeated ehh... that other dude in "New Spring" with one hand, and even with just one hand, Rand is a better swordsman than most people. 

 

If it comes down to a swordsfight between Rand and SH (although, I don't think it will) I wouldn't just throw all hope through the window. So far we haven't seen anything that indicates that SH is more skilled with a blade than any normal Myrddraal, and i bet that Rand is still able to take out atleast one myrddraal. By pure will if nothing else.

 

If he can kill a warder unarmed in a matter of seconds, he can kill a myrddraal with one hand and a sword.

 

Of course, it doesn't matter, 'cause I don't think it will be a swordsfight that solves the problem of SH. 

[BlackveiledTaraboner]

i dont necessarily think swordfighting per se...just a fight, in the physical reality world...i dont see why either would not throw every power available to them at each other in any case.

[Aztain]

There's nothing that says Rand will face him, since the last battle is supposedly mostly fought on a non-phisical level

 

 

 

 

......if they DO fight they should have a cat fight....Rand might have a little disadvantage but it would still be sweet

[MatrixM]

Rand uses a two handed sword style. Without a hand, he is not a blademaster. Lan is awesome but shouldn't have won that fight. The average warder would be beaten by a myddraal, in my opinion. And fighting a myrddraal requires a completely different fighting style, as Mat said overcome them before they overcome you, one moment of thinking of defence could be your death, much unlike taking an unaware warder who doesn't even have his sword drawn. I'd also say that Shaidar Haran would most likely be gifted with stronger attributes such as strength and speed.  So if they fought, Shaidar Haran has the upper hand. Unless Rand has the ter'angreal for the Choedan Kal...

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Lan is awesome but shouldn't have won that fight. The average warder would be beaten by a myddraal, in my opinion

UNQUOTE

 

Lan isn't a normal Warder though. He is the best swordsman we have seen. The Warders are the best fighters, and Lan is the best of the best. I reckon Lan could take on several Myrdraal at once.

[Majsju]

Unless Rand has the ter'angreal for the Choedan Kal...

 

With SH somehow shielding people from the OP, Rand could have five Choedan Kal, without changing the outcome.

[bjclinton]

Lan is awesome but shouldn't have won that fight. The average warder would be beaten by a myddraal, in my opinion.

 

We've seen countless skilled fighters take out Myrdrall in this series, never mind warders- and I can't recall a single Warder getting killed by a Fade in any of the 11 books.... Based on what we know of Warders and the training they go through to become deadly swordsmen, I have to disagree w/ this statement....Myrdrall are no match for a Warder

[MatrixM]

QUOTE

Lan is awesome but shouldn't have won that fight. The average warder would be beaten by a myddraal, in my opinion

UNQUOTE

 

Lan isn't a normal Warder though. He is the best swordsman we have seen. The Warders are the best fighters, and Lan is the best of the best. I reckon Lan could take on several Myrdraal at once.

I was referring to Lan fighting his friend. His friend was better than him and  managed to disable one of his arms but he still won. As for several myddraal, let's not go nuts. If 2 myddraal worked together, he would be hard pressed. Warders are not necessarily the best fighters.

 

Lan is awesome but shouldn't have won that fight. The average warder would be beaten by a myddraal, in my opinion.

 

We've seen countless skilled fighters take out Myrdrall in this series, never mind warders- and I can't recall a single Warder getting killed by a Fade in any of the 11 books.... Based on what we know of Warders and the training they go through to become deadly swordsmen, I have to disagree w/ this statement....Myrdrall are no match for a Warder

No, we haven't. And average warders aren't characters that would be mentioned if they died in a mass battle. We don't know anything about the Warder's training.

[MatrixM]

Unless Rand has the ter'angreal for the Choedan Kal...

 

With SH somehow shielding people from the OP, Rand could have five Choedan Kal, without changing the outcome.

Good point, forgot about that.

[anamul]

With all this SH this and Sh that, I don't see how the side of light can have any chance of victory. With SH being able to block everyone from one power and etc I say they should give up now and start worshipping SH.

 

All being said, Rand, Cady and Co isn't stupid or anything.If Rand was this helpless, then DO need never worry over a outcome in any TG(in other ages as well)....Why do he need LTT/Rand so badly to be on his side?

 

Also, this SH dude with all his power as you describe can eliminate Mat and Perrin anytime, thus effectively ending Rands two vital point. Which may result in Rand joining with the DO. Even if he doesn't it will still be to DO's advantage.

 

When SH wanted to kill Rand, why did he order Carridin? Why not face him himself.

 

No, I don't think it is that easy. There is something else we don't know, something RJ was planning to reveal with the sequence of AMOL.

 

AS for people moaning over Demandred and him being coward cause him not attacking when Rand was cleaning Saidin is absurd.

Demandred isn't stupid. We have seen that most of the forsaken loyality is to themselves. Demandred being the clever one will want to keep some safe guard for himself. He might taking into consideration of the outcome of the TG. Him being pragmatic, he will want to insure that despite the outcome of TG, he will survive and in a better position than other.

Demandred has his own scheme and agenda, he isn't going to jeoperdize them on a mere whime.

[MatrixM]

It's possible that he didn't have the means of making Shaidar Haran in the previous turnings.

AS for people moaning over Demandred and him being coward cause him not attacking when Rand was cleaning Saidin is absurd.

Demandred isn't stupid. We have seen that most of the forsaken loyality is to themselves. Demandred being the clever one will want to keep some safe guard for himself. He might taking into consideration of the outcome of the TG. Him being pragmatic, he will want to insure that despite the outcome of TG, he will survive and in a better position than other.

Demandred has his own scheme and agenda, he isn't going to jeoperdize them on a mere whime.

When were people whining? Are you talking about another topic? And if he didn't attack then he would have been punished like Mesaana or he was doing another mission.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

With all this SH this and Sh that, I don't see how the side of light can have any chance of victory. With SH being able to block everyone from one power and etc I say they should give up now and start worshipping SH.

 

All being said, Rand, Cady and Co isn't stupid or anything.If Rand was this helpless, then DO need never worry over a outcome in any TG(in other ages as well)....Why do he need LTT/Rand so badly to be on his side?

 

Also, this SH dude with all his power as you describe can eliminate Mat and Perrin anytime, thus effectively ending Rands two vital point. Which may result in Rand joining with the DO. Even if he doesn't it will still be to DO's advantage.

 

When SH wanted to kill Rand, why did he order Carridin? Why not face him himself

UNQUOTE

 

 

 

SH isnt all that really. Yes he is a Myrddraal that has powers etc but come on guys. Put him up against a Ta'veren and something will happen to make him fall. I dont think he radiates an anti-Power field as such, just that he can stop people from channeling in certain circumstances. We havent seen him use that against anyone except those who serve the Shadow, so maybe it has something to do with the Dark Ones mark on the Forsaken/Darkfriends. He isnt indestructable.

 

As for the possibility that the Dark One may not have had the means of making SH before, well, we dont even know he is there for front line combat. All we have seen him do is scare the servants of the Dark so that they step back in line and do what they are told. Think about it. The Dark One knows what the Forsaken etc are like, he knows they have their own agendas and such. So maybe SHs only reason for existence is simply to make the Shadows big players work together. RJ had to think of something to make the Forsaken change, something to make them stop working alone at least for the sake of making the Shadow seem more capable of winning the Last Battle.  Enter Shaidar Haran, the first Myrdraal ever to be different than the rest, the first thing the Forsaken have ever come across that can MAKE them do what it wishes, and they begin to shape up.

[MatrixM]

I don't think being Taveren would help much in battle. But i like the rest of your thinking.

[bjclinton]

QUOTE

Lan is awesome but shouldn't have won that fight. The average warder would be beaten by a myddraal, in my opinion

UNQUOTE

 

Lan isn't a normal Warder though. He is the best swordsman we have seen. The Warders are the best fighters, and Lan is the best of the best. I reckon Lan could take on several Myrdraal at once.

I was referring to Lan fighting his friend. His friend was better than him and  managed to disable one of his arms but he still won. As for several myddraal, let's not go nuts. If 2 myddraal worked together, he would be hard pressed. Warders are not necessarily the best fighters.

 

Lan is awesome but shouldn't have won that fight. The average warder would be beaten by a myddraal, in my opinion.

 

We've seen countless skilled fighters take out Myrdrall in this series, never mind warders- and I can't recall a single Warder getting killed by a Fade in any of the 11 books.... Based on what we know of Warders and the training they go through to become deadly swordsmen, I have to disagree w/ this statement....Myrdrall are no match for a Warder

No, we haven't. And average warders aren't characters that would be mentioned if they died in a mass battle. We don't know anything about the Warder's training.

 

We know quite a bit about their training- we see it first hand through Matt's POV while he's healing up in the White Tower after his SL dagger-bond was healed....we also hear about it from other sources throughout the series. They train tirelessly for years until they're skilled enough to prove their worth for bonding. A Warder is chosen for his ability to protect his Aes Sedai when she cannot protect herself and it is a generally accepted piece of knowledge that Warders are the most skilled swordsmen/warriors in Randland. Even the gnarled and older warders, well past their prime. Your statement is that a Fade is a better swordsman than the average warder.....there is absolutely no evidence that any Fade (SH doesn't count...he's more than a Fade) could beat a warder in a battle of weapons. All we've seen in this series proves quite the contrary.

 

The problem with your statement is your use of words: "The average Warder...."

 

Warders aren't average-

 

"They're the best. And Lan is the best of the best."

 

Remember that statement from early on in the series?

 

Sorry mate- your Lurks are but a small challenge for a fully trained Warder :)

[Guest Dreadlord]

Exactly. Lan, when practising the forms after reaching the Aes Sedai he is now bonded to (I forget her name, Myrelle is it?), managed to make even the other Warders jaws drop because he was doing the forms so fast that his sword was a blur. He is way better than the average Warder, and the average Warder could take a Myrdraal or two without breaking a sweat I reckon. Lan could handle several Myrdraal at once no problem. I reckon Rand could without the power until he became stumpy, and Lan is better than Rand.

[Mr Ares]

The advantages Myrddraal have in a fight are that they are very hard to kill and that they have blades that can kill you with a scratch. And the look of the Eyeless is fear. I don't think it unreasonble that even the best Warders would be wary facing a Fade.

[specialj8d]

Two points:

 

Regarding SH's ability to block channeling, I'm confident that there are rules and restrictions. Jordan was a physicist, right? He's all about laws and balance.  Giving one character the innate ability to render any and all channelers impotent would be an incredibly cheesey plot device.

 

Regarding Moridan.. I've always felt there's something more going on with this guy.  It's possible I'm way off track, but I've always seen him as the Dark Side counterpiece to the Light Side's Dragon.  The Dragon is the Light's champion, a soul reborn on repeat to save the world from the Dark One.  Ishamael/Moridan seems to be the hero for the other team with one major difference- the Creator has vowed not to lend a helping hand,(we know this from the passage in EoftW, after Rand has defeated Aginor and before he first confronts Ishamael,) but the Dark One has made no such promise.

 

That difference, I think, provides the most support for my theory.  We know that no channeler can use the One Power to heal themselves, they must rely on another channeler for that.  Who healed Ishamael's burns and ruined body/face after his first few engagements with Rand? The Dark One seems to be the logical answer.  Oh, I suppose it could be one of the Black Ajah, but the slow pace of the healing (yet burns that DID eventually heal without a mark or a scar) seems to disqualify their healing methods.

 

Further, despite his repeated failures in his attempts to convert/kill Rand, he still has the Dark One's favor. When killed in TDR we know he was given a new body by the Dark One and became Moridan.  While others of the Forsaken have also been granted second chances, their new lives were very restricted- They were given strict roles and direction, Lanfear's soul bound inside a corsuvra(sp).  Ishamael, who has failed more often than any other Forsaken(with the possible exception of Moghedien, who shares  Lanfear's fate) has not been punished. Indeed, he has been rewarded, named the Naeblis and given command of the other Forsaken and sole access to the True Power.

 

I'm not sure what exactly this means, but I'm sure it indicates there's more to Moridan than "Just another recycled forsaken, 100% human."

[Luckers]

Exactly. Lan, when practising the forms after reaching the Aes Sedai he is now bonded to (I forget her name, Myrelle is it?), managed to make even the other Warders jaws drop because he was doing the forms so fast that his sword was a blur. He is way better than the average Warder, and the average Warder could take a Myrdraal or two without breaking a sweat I reckon. Lan could handle several Myrdraal at once no problem. I reckon Rand could without the power until he became stumpy, and Lan is better than Rand.

 

Lan didn't make their jaws drop, he made them wary--and not because of the speed of his sword, though that was no doubt a part of it, but because of his mental instability. They were wary that he might attack them. Lan is good, but whether he could be cited to be 'way better' than most warders remains unproven.

 

And the average Warder could not take a Myrdraal or two without breaking a sweat. Myrdraal are fast, and by description near as talented as any blademaster known. Add to that that they are damn hard to kill, and no, i very much doubt you could say a warder could take any Myrdraal without breaking a sweat, much less two.

 

 

 

As for Shaidar Haren's ability to block channeling--we don't actually know that that can effect everyone. To date we've only ever seen it used against Darkfriends, people who have given some part of themselves to the Shadow--we know there are rites involved in that, so it is possible one establishes connections allowing for Shaidar Haren's actions.

 

 

 

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Lan ...

Added to that ...

 

We've also seen Lan fight myrdraal at least once in the series. At no point has it been indicated that it was an easy fight for Lan.

 

Going from there ... to assume that Lan could "handle several Myrdraal at once no problem" is totally unsubstaniated. In my opinion, he'd be a dead man.

 

If Lan is the best of the best, and he had to be on his game, why are we to assume that an "average" warder could kill one? We simply don't see enough warder vs. myrdrall action to make any sort of statement.

 

The "average" warder doesn't appear to be a blade master. I can't remember one reference to a warder with a heron blade sword in the series. Though, granted, there are bound to be a few out there. The majority of people who have fought myrdraal on screen are blademasters/Aiel/taveren. Judging the overall chances of a warder by using the outcome of fights involving the 3 types of people above is flawed. How does it go (and this is coming from Ingtar -- paraphrased obviously)? "If you face an Aiel with their bare hands and you have a sword it's about a fair fight and that's if you're good." One could assume that if Ingtar refers to a "good" swordsman, he's probably pretty useful.