Would you accept Rand returning to life?

[RAND AL THOR]

It is quite clear that Rand will die and then return to life. Nicola's fortelling in LOC proves that. Furthermore, the finns' answer to Rand also proves that.

 

My question is, would you accept a person returning to life after dying?

Please do not bring religion into this.

 

Personally, I think death is something final that cannot be reversed. The soul seperates from the body. In the WOT- it may enter T'A'R to await rebirth. Reviving a dead person seems like it goes against the Wheel. Rand just wouldn't seem properly alive to me if that happens.

 

I would not find that attractive at all. Unless of course, RJ has planned it such that it goes smoothly along with the Wheel and if the event does not violate nature in the ways we have come to believe in Randland. I wonder if Nynaeve does it? :o

[havoc110]

Well, isn't this sort of a lock for this to happen?

 

I don't have much of a problem with it, aside that I'm sick

of Rand and can't wait for him to die. 

 

If you want to make a big difference between this and "recycling"

the Chosen, I suppose that's your prerogative, but I don't see it.

 

But, I think it's a done deal, whether you/we choose to accept it or not.

TG...Rand dies...Rand comes back...Rand sails off a'la Morte D'Artur.

 

Of course you don't have to accept it.  I just don't see what good that will do you, besides ruining the ending.

[metria31183]

On other threads, some people have mentioned that Rand might be planning to fake his own death.  I personally think this is more likely than Rand actually being brought back from the dead.

[RAND AL THOR]

 

 

Of course you don't have to accept it.  I just don't see what good that will do you, besides ruining the ending.

 

As a reader I can decide what I like and what I dislike about a book, thank you. There are some features of WOT that I dislike. Does that mean I don't like the book? NO

 

What you are saying is really weird. 'Of course you don't have to accept it.' What's that supposed to mean? An author listens to feedback from his readers. You are suggesting that an author need not care about other people's opinions about his books at all. Weird.

 

And furthermore, the Chosen are evil beings, recycled by the DO. If a similar thing happens to Rand then I certainly would NOT like it.

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Rand too is a special case.

 

Consider what we know:

He possesses the Dragon Soul.

The Dragon is most likely a Hero of the Horn.

Hero souls go directly to Tel'aran'Rhiod when they die.  They do not pass Go.  They do not collect $200.

Someone with the requisite skill can cast a non-living soul out of T'a'R.  ( Moggy did it to Birgitte )

That displaced soul can be kept alive by being Bonded.  Thus, being reborn as a full adult. ( Elayne saves Birgitte this way )

 

Who do we know who can both enter T'a'R and has a burning desire to heal even death?  And, who would appreciate the problem of someone being Bonded to an AS they hadn't chosen and be willing to pass the Bond?

[havoc110]

Steady on there...

 

There's plenty I don't like as well.  But what you're discussing

has pretty much (subject to interpretation) been FORETOLD.

You didn't just "out of the blue" come up with "What if this happens?"

We all realize that it has a reasonable chance of happening, because

of literary devices in the story.

 

What I'm trying to suggest is that it is practically a done deal, this

"to live live you must die" thing (wording may not be perfect there)

 

Do you honestly believe that Mr. Sanderson would diverge from RJ's

outlines because someone posts that they wouldn't like this or that ending?

The ending is already written.  I don't care if you get DM to start

a "DON'T BRING RAND BACK TO LIFE" petition and get 1000 signatures on it,

the ending won't change.

 

If you look at your OP:  you say "Would you accept?" and then you make a

statement that indicates that you would find it difficult to accept.

I told you that that's your business and your right, and you jumped down

my throat.

 

Hey, Bob, where'd you get that fireproof underwear?

[metria31183]

Rand too is a special case.

 

Consider what we know:

He possesses the Dragon Soul.

The Dragon is most likely a Hero of the Horn.

Hero souls go directly to Tel'aran'Rhiod when they die.  They do not pass Go.  They do not collect $200.

Someone with the requisite skill can cast a non-living soul out of T'a'R.  ( Moggy did it to Birgitte )

That displaced soul can be kept alive by being Bonded.  Thus, being reborn as a full adult. ( Elayne saves Birgitte this way )

 

Who do we know who can both enter T'a'R and has a burning desire to heal even death?  And, who would appreciate the problem of someone being Bonded to an AS they hadn't chosen and be willing to pass the Bond?

 

Interesting scenario Bob.  I like it except for one thing.  Would the displaced soul really be Rand?  Birgitte remembers being differenct people in different lives.  Would the soul brought back from TAR be Rand or be someone that remembered being Rand?

[RAND AL THOR]

Fortellings can be interpreted in many ways.

 

However, I too agree that it is 85% likely that Rand will die and return to life.

 

My curiosity is drawn to how this would actually happen. It is highly likely that the revival would involve breaking several laws of nature that Randland follows. I would not find that idea inviting. But I am expecting an ending where Rand's revival fits all the laws etc...so I don' think I will be disappointed.

 

And obviously BS has very limited editorial control over Randland. He can't change much at all and I'm sure he wouldn't even if he could. RJ deserves his own plot to be published, especially since he's been working on it for so long.

[Daphilip]

I sort of like the idea that everybody thinks the dragon is dead, that everyting is doomed, but then he resurects in some way and saves the day.

 

And, as an romantic at heart, I always want a happy ending ;)

[metria31183]

RAND AL THOR

 

You say you like WoT, but you are always commenting on the things that RJ put into the story that you dislike.  Now I'm not trying to be belittling or offensive, but you come across as deigning to read WoT even though you think it's beneath you.  I'm just saying, maybe you should rethink why you read RJ's book.  Again I am not saying this to be malicious and no offense is intended.

[RAND AL THOR]

RAND AL THOR

 

You say you like WoT, but you are always commenting on the things that RJ put into the story that you dislike.  Now I'm not trying to be belittling or offensive, but you come across as deigning to read WoT even though you think it's beneath you.  I'm just saying, maybe you should rethink why you read RJ's book.  Again I am not saying this to be malicious and no offense is intended.

 

People have already discussed the areas they like in WOT in the past. That is why I brought up an opposing thread a few weeks back.

 

I have never thought the book is 'beneath me.'

 

It is not my view to adore every aspect of every book I read. There are positives and there are negatives. Considering that most of the positives have already been discussed on this forum, I decided to discuss some of the negatives. But since you haven't seen me post threads with a name like: 'oooh I love this part of the WOT' you seem to consider me as someone who criticizes WOT. That is perfectly understandable. But it is not so.

 

You may notice that the thread i posted a few weeks back titled : Parts you dislike in WOT- got more than 6 pages of replies. It is not a matter of disgracing RJ. It is  a matter of discussing the weaker areas in the story.

 

Again I state that people have already discussed the nice topics. for ex, I love the cleansing. But would it be worth posting a topic: "How many of you love the cleaning?"

No, because it has ALREADY been discussed. I specifically state that I like the WOT to avoid the sort of answer that you just gave. Oh well. Anyway, no offence taken.

I hope my point is across.

[Bob T Dwarf]

metria -

 

Just like Birgitte he'd be someone new who remembers being Rand as well as all the other Dragon incarnations.  At least for awhile.  Those additional memories might be valuable for as long as they last.

 

The boy who grew up in Emond's Field,  and called Tam and Kari, Dad and Mom, would be gone, but the Dragon would survive.

 

Ultimately in terms of the Wheel, the world, and the story, it's the Dragon soul that matters, not the present incarnation or name of that soul.

 

 

[havoc110]

OK, how's about a loony resurrection theory then:

 

Not only does Rand die, he gets somehow removed from the Pattern.

So then we have some divine intervention by the Creator (who needs

to have his say in the Matter, cause the DO has been doing all the talking).

so that the Wheel of Time can have another go-round.

('Cause, who knows, the Dragon character might just end up being the Creator

character's son...)

 

 

My current end scene has Dark Rand sort of wavering back to

Light Rand and wanting to die before the DO has complete victory. 

But no-one on the Light side wants to kill Rand in his final lucid moment, so it falls to Alivia, on the DragonMount, with the Balefire.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[metria31183]

Bob

 

Then I guess the question is what did the Finns refer to in there answer "To live you must die."  Rand asked the question, but was the answer refering to Rand as himself or his soul as the Dragon?

[Bob T Dwarf]

My view is that the Finns were addressing the underlying soul, not the current face.

 

That's still very early in the story.  He hadn't really come to terms with the idea of being the Dragon Reborn and wouldn't have thought of himself that way.  He was asking as Rand.  They answered as though he was asking as the Dragon.

[Bob T Dwarf]

It also creates the potential for both Rand and Moridin to be the Fisher.  Moridin casts Rand's soul out of his body and inserts his own into the husk, thus becoming Rand.  Complete with unhealing wounds in his side, messed up vision, missing hand, the works.

 

Alternatively, Rand gets balefired back to before dawn, setting up the whole Twice Dawns the Day scenario.  ( I don't think it'll be this way though )

 

Rand's soul now moves to some prearranged place in T'a'R where Nynaeve is already waiting.  Nynaeve, who had Moggy as her prisoner and questioned her closely, has the knowledge necessary for the next step, and casts the Dragon out back into the Real World.  Then either she follows directly, or Elayne, or Aviendha is already waiting, and immediately Bonds him.

 

Voila`, new Rand, new body, new Dragon.  And, for the time being, possessing all of the accumulated knowledge of all of the Dragon's incarnations.  Including why he used to be known as Lord of the Morning and Prince of the Dawn.  As well as what Singing and the Voice are really all about.  That knowledge can also work to fulfill the Twice Dawns the Day prophecy.

 

Now, when Moridin dies, possibly killed by Logain, ( or else Alivia ) Egwene's Dream about Rand's body that wasn't Rand's body is also fulfilled.

 

Thereafter, once TG is finished, the three who love him, carry out a sham burial.  The bier.  The three in a boat.  The whole nine yards.

 

Of course, in order for him to put it all together and have it work out that way, he first has to encounter Elayne and Birgitte, recognize Bigitte, and pry the story of how a dead Hero that he'd last seen at Falme is now a live Warder guarding Elayne's back out of them.

 

That ta'veren stuff better kick in big time awfully soon.

[havoc110]

Bob, that's pretty convoluted.  Not impossible mind you.

 

Makes me wonder about the "Taking temperature" thread...

[Bob T Dwarf]

Oh, this one is elementary stuff.  People will really HATE that one if there get to be enough votes that it seems worthwhile this far in advance of AMoL.

[havoc110]

That's what I was afraid you were going to say...

[Bob T Dwarf]

Almost forgot.

 

That accumulated knowledge of the Dragon - it'd also include where any remaining Seals really are and what the original plan for Sealing the Bore was - the one that included both men and women.

[Jonn]

Well, the problem I can see with the Tel Aran Rhiod theory is that when a hero's soul is sent there, they are an amalgamation of all of the lifetimes they've lived. If Rand gets sent there, he will no doubt be not just Rand but Lews Therin and every other rendition of the Dragon that has ever been. He won't be the same.

Note Birgitte. She laments that she really isn't that sure who she is sometimes and that her memories are fading.

If Rand is dealt out that way in Tel Aran Rhiod, what parts of him will remain, and what will fade?

Still an interesting thought though.

 

About the Aelfinn prophecy, to live you must die...

 

I think it's being fulfilled right now. The Rand that was, the country raised boy, naive and green. The soft Rand...That's dying right now. There's almost nothing of that Rand left. And as we can surely see, the things that hold him back from fulfilling his destiny have been his weaknesses. That's one way to look at it.

[Bob T Dwarf]

havoc -

 

Ya gotta make it yourself.  It's in soaking in the fire retardant chemicals now.  Sure hope I'm not allergic to that stuff.  That'd be a REALLY painful rash.  Embarrassing too.

[bjclinton]

A couple reminders on the TAR theories listed above:

 

1. When someone bound to the horn dies, they return to TAR as their most recent human embodiment. Although they have many memories from past lives, they are in large part the last body that they occupied.

 

2. While its a good theory to "rip" Rand out of TAR and bond him, there are two problems with this theory

      a. No one knows exactly how it was done (other than maybe the Chosen)

      b. Because she was untimely ripped out of TAR, even Birgitta admits that she doesn't know what affect that will have on her potential rebirth into the WoT and her connection to the horn and Gaidal. If, as she suspects and or fears could be the case, this severed her connection to the Wheel as a hero, doing the same to the Dragon could risk forsaking the future of Randland when he rebirth is going to be needed the next go-round.

 

[RAND AL THOR]

It also creates the potential for both Rand and Moridin to be the Fisher.  Moridin casts Rand's soul out of his body and inserts his own into the husk, thus becoming Rand.  Complete with unhealing wounds in his side, messed up vision, missing hand, the works.

 

Alternatively, Rand gets balefired back to before dawn, setting up the whole Twice Dawns the Day scenario.  ( I don't think it'll be this way though )

 

Rand's soul now moves to some prearranged place in T'a'R where Nynaeve is already waiting.  Nynaeve, who had Moggy as her prisoner and questioned her closely, has the knowledge necessary for the next step, and casts the Dragon out back into the Real World.  Then either she follows directly, or Elayne, or Aviendha is already waiting, and immediately Bonds him.

 

Voila`, new Rand, new body, new Dragon.  And, for the time being, possessing all of the accumulated knowledge of all of the Dragon's incarnations.  Including why he used to be known as Lord of the Morning and Prince of the Dawn.  As well as what Singing and the Voice are really all about.  That knowledge can also work to fulfill the Twice Dawns the Day prophecy.

 

Now, when Moridin dies, possibly killed by Logain, ( or else Alivia ) Egwene's Dream about Rand's body that wasn't Rand's body is also fulfilled.

 

Thereafter, once TG is finished, the three who love him, carry out a sham burial.  The bier.  The three in a boat.  The whole nine yards.

 

Of course, in order for him to put it all together and have it work out that way, he first has to encounter Elayne and Birgitte, recognize Bigitte, and pry the story of how a dead Hero that he'd last seen at Falme is now a live Warder guarding Elayne's back out of them.

 

That ta'veren stuff better kick in big time awfully soon.

 

All I can say is.....WOW

[Safia al-Maaz]

I would accept nothing less than Rand surviving.  I love him, even if he is a stubborn idiot a bit of the time.  I'm hoping he just fakes his death or something though, I would find it difficult to swallow his dying and coming back to life without the help of the Creator or something..