Why doesn't Demandred understand......

[havoc110]

Clear as day, in light of this thread.  The Gholam's there to get Elayne (or at least to tell us that the DO wants Elayne).

 

Strangely enough, it's still too early in the story, since Elayne isn't pregnant yet.

 

The parallels just keep coming, though.  Elayne's gonna have, surprise, twins, a boy and a girl.

 

A reread of LoC Ch7 definitely reveals Elayne to be the person Dem is looking for.

 

The DO want's to play out the final scene of the last Breaking, except, this time, he'll have Ilyena/Elayne.

[havoc110]

More of the same in KoD 31, the BA trap.

 

Temaile:  "Elayne's the only one we need."

 

EDIT:  Sometimes it's amazing how these threads run together.

I just realized that the Org Chart for this operation is:

 

Moridin >>>> Mili Skane >>>> BA "cell"

 

Although this cell was once Moggy's and Hanlon also gets orders

from Moggy, so this is very convoluted here.  It is Mili Skane who

tells Hanlon: "how would you like to put your hands on a Queen?"

 

So Moridin is after Elayne too, but perhaps not part of the LoC

scheme.  Since he's Nae'blis, he's certainly not really going

to support a plan to promote Rand. 

Perhaps he's after Elayne to keep her out of Dem's hands.

 

More than likely, Moridin and Dem are working at cross purposes here.

 

This last group of posts have really shed some light on

how I think MoL will play out.

 

 

[Valinthros]

I'm not convinced this is a specific task assigned by the DO, and I dont think that can be proven.  The task being the Gholam going after Matt/Elayne.  It's obvious that the attack was initiated by the forsaken, however, they have their own agenda.  Those agenda's dont allways coencide with the DO's orders.

 

On the Dem issue.  I beleive his disbeleif is stemming from the order to leave Rand alive.  As we've seen before, he's had a burning desire to destroy LTT utterly.  I cant quote it at the moment, I'm not near any of the books.  From what I gathered, Sammael and Demandred were both on par with their complete hatred of LTT, transferred to Rand Al'thor completely.

 

Anyhow, my 2c. ;)

[Bob T Dwarf]

My conception of the LoC Plan is very like what we see at the DF social at the beginning of Book 2.

 

It's a whole set of tasks.  A does this.  B does that.  C does the other. etc., etc.

 

Demandred, who has been given the task of distributing each task to its assigned operative, and thus is the only one who knows the complete set, is trying to figure out how they all tie together.  How he can both use his knowledge to achieve the end he wants, and still achieve the victory the DO wants.

 

Part of all of that seems to be that the DO wants Rand kept alive.  ( although that may only be Moridin, it is Shaidar Haran who is out telling Carridin to find and kill Rand sooner than soonest, OR, ELSE! Moridin has Carridin killed because of that order. )

 

So, like all of the DO's schemes, it's complicated, convoluted, and as likely to trip up the DO's lieutenants as anything else.  Demandred, wisely, is devoting a lot of skull sweat to figuring out how he can make it all work to his own best advantage.

[havoc110]

Whatever people may think about whether this is a specific task or not;  (And  I think it most certainly is) in this scene LoC ch7, Dem's purpose is to spy on Elayne.  The next most likely alternative is that he's wandering around T'A'R in a confused state.  He's just been given his mission by the DO.  He's there for a reason.

[RAND AL THOR]

Despite the counter-arguements, I still believe that Rand is not LOC.

 

If so, then why should Semirhage say that she killed the royal family and afterwards laugh and say 'let the lord of chaos rule'  ????

 

Also, If the forsaken were to listen to the DO and allow Rand to rule and NOT interfere with his work then wouldn't it make things all the easier for Rand? If Rand was to be left alone then it would have been easier for Rand to gain the support of all the nations. That's my hunch anyway.

 

Also, I think Semirhage is the one who prompted the return of the Seanchan. I mean why should it happen at this particular time? It would be ideal if Semirhage initiated it to break apart Randland.

 

There is a weak point however in the 'Rand is not LOC' idea. That is: The Forsaken already seem to be spreading chaos before book 6. But the order from the DO comes in book 6. After the order comes, there is no significant change in the way the forsaken act. This point strongly supports the view that Rand is LOC.

 

Will we ever really find out? I wonder how RJ could put the answer in the book in a way that is not too direct. I mean, Moridin can't just mention Rand as the LOC in a coffee meeting in AMOL when he hasn't mentioned it ever before. I think some of our questions will remain answered even after AMOL. To get all our answers we'll just have to kidnap BS and query him.  ;)

[havoc110]

Well, if Rand becomes Nae'blis (Dark Rand), then we'll know.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Also, If the forsaken were to listen to the DO and allow Rand to rule and NOT interfere with his work then wouldn't it make things all the easier for Rand? If Rand was to be left alone then it would have been easier for Rand to gain the support of all the nations. That's my hunch anyway.

 

Oh, they're supposed interfere, big time.  They're just not supposed to kill him.

[RAND AL THOR]

Also, If the forsaken were to listen to the DO and allow Rand to rule and NOT interfere with his work then wouldn't it make things all the easier for Rand? If Rand was to be left alone then it would have been easier for Rand to gain the support of all the nations. That's my hunch anyway.

 

Oh, they're supposed interfere, big time.  They're just not supposed to kill him.

 

The DO's instruction was : Let the LOC RULE.' Not "Let the LOC LIVE.'

 

By saying RULE, isn't it an order to stay away from him and not interfere?

[Bob T Dwarf]

I don't see it that way.

 

I think it's more a case of, "Let this child play at being king.  Between the chaos I will tell you how to cause, and that caused by his own ineptness the forces of the Light will be so confused and weakened the we can't help but triumph."

[RAND AL THOR]

I don't see it that way.

 

I think it's more a case of, "Let this child play at being king.  Between the chaos I will tell you how to cause, and that caused by his own ineptness the forces of the Light will be so confused and weakened the we can't help but triumph."

 

Nice reply. That makes sense. But what about semi's comment?

[Bob T Dwarf]

I'm not sure what comment by Semirhage you mean.

 

Or do you mean your comment about Semi causing the Seanchan to invade at this time?  If it's that, then no, she didn't.  That has been a multi-generational project of the Imperium all along.  They finally had a long enough window of peace and prosperity that they could devote the years and years to the preparations needed to make it happen.  That build-up wasn't accomplished swiftly.

 

Even if they used damane and OP, they couldn't build the hundreds if not thousands of ships needed in a short enough timeframe, assemble the troops and settlers, outfit the expedition, etc., etc. for it to have been Semi that was behind it. 

[havoc110]

I assume the comment is Semi's "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" in KoD Prologue

 

To, me, it's like Taim's statement at the epilogue, akin to "Mission Accomplished".

 

So.  I think that Semi was acknowledging that this phase of the operation is complete.  Obviously that's been part of the plan all along, since that's where Semi's been. 

 

I can't piece together what it means in the big picture (how it fits in with the whole LoC Plan), yet.

 

Then, it is also hard to tell if the Sad Bracelets are part of the overall plan, or a Semi-only plan.  Remember in LoC ch6, Semi is talking about Rand being Nae'blis (another Dark Rand reference) but saying that all it would take was one slip by Rand and he would be hers. So:

 

Are the Sad Bracelets part of the LoC plan?

 

or,

 

Are they Semi freewheeling to make her bid to get to the top?

 

I prefer the latter myself.

 

 

 

[RAND AL THOR]

Yes that's the statement I meant.

 

It's sensible that her statement there was akin to 'mission accomplished' but I fail to see how murdering the Imperial Family has anything to do with the DO's orders if Rand is LOC.

 

That statement, along with Taim's, is what keeps me glued to the idea that LOC is not Rand. Taim saying the statement seemed like 'mission accomplished' but again, I can't see how that is directly linked to Rand.

 

On the other hand, the red sisters bonding male channelers is utter madness since they have always hunted them. So, this would coincide with the idea that the DO's orders were to 'spread chaos' and so Taim's statement at the end of KOD seems like an accomplishment of THAT plan.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yes that's the statement I meant.

 

It's sensible that her statement there was akin to 'mission accomplished' but I fail to see how murdering the Imperial Family has anything to do with the DO's orders if Rand is LOC.

 

There was a thread several months ( or more ) back that dealt with this.

 

The gist of it comes down to:

 

The DO lacked enough lieutenants to assure that the Dark could subvert all of the major players, so -

 

Semirhage neutralized Seanchan.

Graendal neutralized Shara.

 

Neither of those places can be expected to furnish troops, supplies, reinforcements, anything at all for either side during TG.  The Dark's "reasoning" seems to be that this harms Rand more than it harms them.  Since the Seanchan have succeeded in eradicating Shadowspawn on their own continent, they may be right, at least in that instance.  Shara could have been expected to be a source of many channelers for the Light if nothing else, but now, like Seanchan, they too are in the midst of a civil war of succession.

[havoc110]

I'll give you my best take, and it's a bit hazy in parts:

 

1)  Semi is there to remove opposition to Rand.  (Hazy on the whole

help Rand/harm Rand scale provided by Royal Family assassination)

 

2)  Taim is there to increase Rand's power base.

 

3)  All 3 of Mesaana, Taim, and Semi have accomplished their goals

in similar fashion, from right at or near the top of the org. charts in the

Seanchan Royal Family, the WT, and the BT.

 

4)  I think Taim & Co. are going to bond the 6 Reds, adding to their

totals.  Then you have a whole internal struggle with the remaining

Reds back at TV, especially if someone steps up to frame Elaida.  Soon

thereafter you might have either Alv. or Danelle (???) as Amyrlin Seat.

Mesaana wants them hating each other in their blood?  Blue Ajah excommuncated

by Red and Red excommunicated by EVERYONE would just about do the trick.

(Note that neither Alv. nor Danelle are RED.  Also note I am slowing coming

around on the Danelle/Mesaana angle).

 

5)  Before people pile on this point, I have not done a thorough back

check to see how much control Bonding against your will exerts, nor have

I gone over the roster of previously bonded AS.  But what you have on

the BT doorstep now are some pretty high up Red Sisters. (Tarna, Pevara

amongst them). How in the heck did they manage to send the Keeper, anyway?

Perhaps these Red's will be bonded to some potential

high up future Dreadlords, perhaps Taim himself?  (Again unsure if

Taim has bonded anyone, nor what his views on that might be).

 

[RAND AL THOR]

lol

nice theories.

Assuming that Rand is LOC, I'm now really looking forward to Rand's chat with the DO during TG. ;)

[Bob T Dwarf]

I may be misreading you but I think you've got the Bonding bit backwards.

 

The Reds are there to Bond Asha'man, not to be bonded by Asha'man.  Taim's proviso about that is that they've got to take the lowest ranking, the soldiers, not any Dedicated or any full Asha'man.

 

Considering that Mesaana believes she has the Reds doing exactly what she wants and only what she wants, and that she believes that she has fractured the WT beyond repair, and that Elaida will break Egwene, and that she will succeed in fracturing the Rebel Tower, as well, then -

 

She will have subverted a portion of all three Towers, and neutralized the rest.

 

Kreskin predicts that she will be very wrong in all of her assumptions.

[havoc110]

Yeah Bob, I know what's supposed to happen,

allegedly the Red's are going to be doing the Bonding,

but I don't think it's going to play out that way.

 

Either way it turns out, I don't think it's going to reflect well

on Elaida when the plan comes to light.

 

But that last scene smells like a total set up job to me...

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

As we've seen with Rand, Bonding doesn't really confer the degree of control that the AS think it does.

 

Sort of like voodoo, the result a practitioner achieves is a direct product of how thoroughly the recipient believes in the practitioner's power.

 

Currently, the AS get the result they do because the Warders believe the AS have great power.  They've also entered into their Bonds because they want to cooperate with their AS and her goals.  First, they have no desire to resist, and second, they deeply believe that any resistance would be futile.  Thus they don't really even try.

 

Since the Reds are being given permission only to Bond the supposedly lowest level and least trained, it might work out exactly as they expect.  Unless, of course, Taim has had his best trained and most highly indoctrinated take their pins off and put themselves forward for the job.

[OsaroLJ]

I'm a little confused. Can you guys explain to me the relationship between Elayne and Ilyena?

[Bob T Dwarf]

None absolutely known.

 

Demandred seems to be taking an unhealthy interest in, at least, one of the Wonder Girls.

 

One explanation might be that one of them is a reincarnation of Ilyena.  ( Ilyena Sunhair? )

[havoc110]

Bob, why stepping so lightly on this one?

 

All speculation, but:

 

Elanye is to Ilyena as Rand is to LTT.

(Of course Elayne doesn't have a lunatic's voice in her head)

Note similar appearance, similar name, and similar attachment

to the Dragon.

 

And even if you don't believe it, Elayne's still carrying

Rand's twin children.

 

There's evidence to suggest that the DO and his minions are

trying to get their hands on Elayne, for reasons unknown:

(but possibly as an attempt to convert Rand to the Dark side)

 

1)  Demandred Stalking her in LoC.

 

2)  The Gholam in CoS

 

3)  Moggy's BA cell in KoD.

 

4)  LTT screams that Demandred wanted Ilyena. (LoC ch51)

 

 

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

My only two questions are:

 

Is Elayne really Ilyena?

Did Demandred want Ilyena for Ilyena or simply because LTT had her?

 

IOW, is Demandred after Elayne specifically, or would anybody for whom he thought Rand had a deep attachment and affection suffice?

[havoc110]

Well,

 

I don't see the DO, or Dem, or really anybody for that matter,

chasing Avi or Min.

 

So specifically I believe it is Elayne.  There's a thread

somewhere about Elayne holding the key.  Not Avi, not Min,

Elayne.

 

When you get down to it.  It doesn't really matter if

Elanye is Ilyena, any more than if Rand is LTT.

 

The parallels are there regardless of the technical definitions

of "reincarnations".