Linking

[Paviel]

A while ago I read something on these forums to the effect that there must be at least as many women as men in a circle.

 

However, Asmodean says "Do you really think Lanfear really intended me to teach you everything? If she had wanted that, she would have contrived to stay close so she could link us." (TFOH paperback 103)

 

And, later on the same page: "You and I cannot [link]. Not without a woman to join us. You could ask Moiraine, I suppose, or the girl Egwene. One of them might be able to reason out the method."

 

Can men outnumber women in a circle, or was Asmodean lying?

[Rasta Ashaman]

Can men outnumber women in a circle, or was Asmodean lying?

 

They probably can (there are no references in the books about that being impossible anyway), and Asmo didn't lie - what he meant was that in order for him and Rand get linked they'd need Lanfear (or any other female chaneller) because men can't initiate a link between men/women and can't link between themselves without a female chaneller's aid.

[Andrew the Great]

It was my understanding that you had to have at least one man to take the circle past thirteen, and the more balanced the circle the stronger it is, but I don't think that there have to be more women than men. I could be wrong, but that was my understanding.

[Dreadlady]

I found this in the glossary of LoC:

.. except in the linking of one man and one woman, one woman and two men, or of course, two men and two women, there must always be at least one more woman in the circle than there are men.

[Dreadlady]

However, another thing the glossary said:

In most circles, either a man or a woman can control the link, but a man must control in the circle of 72 as well as in mixed circles of fewer than 13.

 

This puzzles me as neither Eben nor Narishma were controlling their circles of 3 or 4 people.

[Luckers]

I'm guessing it was a mistake--that the glossary was backwards, because in tSR Graendal taunts Sammael by saying he should find some black sisters to take the circle beyond thirteen so that he or Rahvin must have control.

 

I'm guessing it should probably have said men should control mixed circles of more than thirteen, not less.

[Alexius]

I'm sure it is a mistake- especially given that Cadsuane tells Rand that he can only use Callandor safely  linked to two women, with one of them leading.

[Red2111]

^ true.  something about a woman directing the flows.  (i guess this is why Callanandor isn't as big of a drawl to the remaining male forsaken; they need help to wield the full power of it)

 

 

 

my guess to as why a man can't initiate a circle is because compared one on one a male is stronger than a female.  i think it's said that two female linked would equal a male and be able to sheild him and maintain it(unless he's caught off guard) no matter how strong the female is.  and to keep balance, there can't be more men in a circle for that simple fact.

 

Asha'man and Aes Sedai are like yin and yang, balancing eachother.  so it makes sense.

[Mr Ares]

^ true.  something about a woman directing the flows.  (i guess this is why Callanandor isn't as big of a draw to the remaining male forsaken; they need help to wield the full power of it)

They can wield the full power of Callandor without women. The problem with Callandor is twofold: firstly, it magnifies the taint causing "wildness of the mind" (see Rand trying to raise the dead and slaughtering his own men in TSR and PoD), but this is not a problem for the taint-proofed Chosen; secondly, there is no barrier to stop one drawing too much. Being in a link would provide the same protection, and given that they don't have to worry about the taint they can control the link. Of course, wanting it and being able to get it are two different things. It was warder, then in al'Thor's possession (the same al'Thor surrounded by Aes Sedai). Trying to get their hands on it would likely prove more trouble than it's worth.

 

my guess to as why a man can't initiate a circle is because compared one on one a male is stronger than a female.  i think it's said that two female linked would equal a male and be able to sheild him and maintain it(unless he's caught off guard) no matter how strong the female is.  and to keep balance, there can't be more men in a circle for that simple fact.

A man is stronger than a woman ON AVERAGE. Graendal and Lanfear are both stronger than most men. Two linked women may equal a man - it depends on the strengths of the women and man in question. A circle of thirteen can shield any man, because of the steengths involved, but Rand is stronger than many a pair of women.

[Asmo]

If I understand this correctly, a Circle can be led by either a man or a woman, except if there is only the minimum required number of male channelers to support the Circle so that no more women may be added, in which case a woman must lead. Also, if a Circle has the maximum of 72 members or if the Circle has no more than 13 members but more than one man, the leader of the Circle must be a man.

 

As for Callandor, Moridin does not need it because he uses the True Power and the others are too afraid to try and get it without Moridin's consent, which he won't give. I wonder what Cadsuane will do with it. In WH it was implied she had a use for it. I wonder why Rand hasn't gotten it back, as well as the access key.

 

As for male and female channelers, it was only stated that women had the ability to link without men because men were on average stronger than women in the One Power. However, that's almost unfair, since the advantage doesn't seem too big and as Asmodean stated 13 of the weakest women in the Tower together could match Rand in strength.

 

Lanfear should have been insanely strong, if she was stronger than another Forsaken after her ressurection yet noticeably weaker than before for others not to believe it was the same person. Also, she could fight as Cyndane well enough against Alivia with the bracelet angreal, which clearly implies that Lanfear used to be quite stronger than Nynaeve, or at least so skilled that the gap was huge.

[Red2111]

^ even Mohgedien was stronger than Nyneve.  it was just that Nyneve was able to outsmart her in the Dream World and get the A'dam attatched to her.

 

now i'd like to see Alivia matched up to Mohgedien (which i gather as the weakest of the female forsaken) when Alivia maxes out to see if she even matches the Forsaken.  though i think Elyane or Nyneve mentions that they believe she will eventually be stronger than Mohgedien in the power.

 

i don't think Cadsuane has any plans for Callanador, but i have to wonder if Rand and Elyane will get together and make another site key for the female ter'angle that was destroyed.  even with it being a lump of nothing, Elyane might be able to shift things out and figure it out.  it woudl be a helpful weapon in TG, especailly in a linked circle

[Captain General Miraj]

Why must a man control the link when there is one man and one woman?

 

The woman has to start the link so why must she give up control?

 

[Asmo]

 

^ even Mohgedien was stronger than Nyneve.  it was just that Nyneve was able to outsmart her in the Dream World and get the A'dam attatched to her.

 

Moghedien and Nynaeve were evenly matched in the Power. Moghedien had more experience with cutting opposing flows and working in the World of Dreams, and she still was defeated two in three times. And Nynaeve was nowhere near her full potential at that point.

 

now i'd like to see Alivia matched up to Mohgedien (which i gather as the weakest of the female forsaken) when Alivia maxes out to see if she even matches the Forsaken.  though i think Elyane or Nyneve mentions that they believe she will eventually be stronger than Mohgedien in the power.

 

If Cyndane thought Alivia with an angreal was stronger than herself at full power, even without an angreal she is bound to be at least mid-Forsaken level.

 

i don't think Cadsuane has any plans for Callanador, but i have to wonder if Rand and Elyane will get together and make another site key for the female ter'angle that was destroyed.  even with it being a lump of nothing, Elyane might be able to shift things out and figure it out.  it woudl be a helpful weapon in TG, especailly in a linked circle

 

Yeah, Elayne will definately rebuild the female access key (one has to wonder how all the things that must be done are ever going to fit in one book, even if it's 2000 pages long). And if Lanfear was correct, just a man and a woman holding the Choeden Kal would be enough to bitch-slap the Dark One in the face.

[Luckers]

now i'd like to see Alivia matched up to Mohgedien (which i gather as the weakest of the female forsaken) when Alivia maxes out to see if she even matches the Forsaken.  though i think Elyane or Nyneve mentions that they believe she will eventually be stronger than Mohgedien in the power.

 

Firstly, we do not know that Moghedian is the weakest of the Forsaken. Certainly she is cowardly, and rather pathetic, but that has nothing to do with her strength in the power compared to them--her personality dates back to before the Bore was even drilled, and she used the same method then as now.

 

In truth we don't know where she stands in comparison to the likes of Semirhage or Mesaana. Nor Aran'gar, Be'lal, Rahvin, Asmodean or Sammael amongst the men.

 

As for Alivia, we know that she is considerably stronger than Nynaeve, who by that stage would have been slightly stronger than Moghedian. It's entirely possible that Alivia is as strong as Lanfear was, but i'd definately place her weakest level at being equal with Graendal. Between the two i'd fall toward Lanfear, but we don't know enough to say for sure.

 

Quote

i don't think Cadsuane has any plans for Callanador, but i have to wonder if Rand and Elyane will get together and make another site key for the female ter'angle that was destroyed.  even with it being a lump of nothing, Elyane might be able to shift things out and figure it out.  it woudl be a helpful weapon in TG, especailly in a linked circle

 

 

Yeah, Elayne will definately rebuild the female access key (one has to wonder how all the things that must be done are ever going to fit in one book, even if it's 2000 pages long). And if Lanfear was correct, just a man and a woman holding the Choeden Kal would be enough to bitch-slap the Dark One in the face.

 

Unfortunately that is not possible. The sa'angreal itself was also destroyed--Alviarin speaks of it in CoT.

[Red2111]

i take everything Alivarian says with more than a grain of salt.  unless she mentions the thing being destroyed in KoD, the only mention of it is that she she visited the island without Meseana's approval and at he annouance of having to remove the mud from her shoes and dress so no one asks questions.  it's in the chapter "A mark" and the only mention of visiting Treemalking(sp) is in the first and maybe second page.  the rest is just her complaints about the Ajahs, Eladia, and what Mesena won't teach her.  beside Eledia putting her in her place and the whole encounter with Shadar Heron.

 

 

i assumed that Mohgedien acted like she did among the choosen, not only because of her persionality of stirking while the back was turned, but because she was the weakest among them (atleast those remaining)

 

same with Asmo, i figured he was bottom of the chain among the men because of how he was treated and such.

[Paviel]

It wasn't Alviarin in CoT; it was one of the Sea Folk in KoD paperback page 511: "The Great Hand on Tremalking melted."

[Red2111]

^ lol  in that case, i have alot of reading to get up to that point  ;D

[Luckers]

Indeed, I had blurred the two--the comment by Alviarin about Zemaille flinching if she knew what occurred on Tremalking and the Cemeille's relation in KoD.

 

i assumed that Mohgedien acted like she did among the choosen, not only because of her persionality of stirking while the back was turned, but because she was the weakest among them (atleast those remaining)

 

same with Asmo, i figured he was bottom of the chain among the men because of how he was treated and such.

 

I know, people commonly do, yet there is nothing to sustain that. Moghedian and Asmodean were both rather pathetic people, yet that has nothing to do with their strength--look at the way Rahvin acts to Lanfear, though Lanfear is clearly the stronger. Or how Graendal acts to Lanfear though she is clearly the weaker.

 

It's easy to assume that they were weaker because of how they are reguarded--but that results from their nature, not their strength. And i would remind you that Moghedian, at least, is reguarded with fear. Oh, there is a strong amount of contempt, but it is wary.

[Asmo]

It's unlikely Rahvin is much weaker than Lanfear. Rand was thinking he could defeat Lanfear (who was using an angreal) with his own angreal without Balefire, and Lanfear had him cornered. You may argue that male channelers cannot feel a female's strength but Rand was almost shielded, and he still believed he could channel something to destroy her. And he was also holding up a barrier to protect those around him. The same Rand had to ambush Rahvin who was distracted by Nynaeve and Moghedien and had no angreal and blast him with Balefire to defeat him.

 

Yeah, attitude rarely has much to do with strength in the Power. But that strength can be evaluated by other sources such as indirect comparisons, statements etc. Although I admit it's very hard to do so effectively.

[Luckers]

It's unlikely Rahvin is much weaker than Lanfear. Rand was thinking he could defeat Lanfear (who was using an angreal) with his own angreal without Balefire, and Lanfear had him cornered. You may argue that male channelers cannot feel a female's strength but Rand was almost shielded, and he still believed he could channel something to destroy her. And he was also holding up a barrier to protect those around him. The same Rand had to ambush Rahvin who was distracted by Nynaeve and Moghedien and had no angreal and blast him with Balefire to defeat him.

 

Firstly, he had tied of that barrier, so no, he wasn't maintaining it. Secondly, the difference between a weak angreal and a strong one can be dramatic. The difference between the accrobat angreal and the fat man angreal more than provides for that--especially considering Rand was not yet at his full strength at that stage, and that he himself should not have had the strength to equal Lanfear.

 

Furthermore, knowledge plays a very great part. Rand had that same angreal when he fought Rahvin, yet Rahvin as you state more than held his own. Much the same as how Cyndane was able to hold her own against Alivia who bore a very strong angreal. Lanfear was off balance with jealousy, Rahvin was not.

 

Yeah, attitude rarely has much to do with strength in the Power. But that strength can be evaluated by other sources such as indirect comparisons, statements etc. Although I admit it's very hard to do so effectively.

 

Indeed, such comparisons are possible, even if blurry. But that is my point, there are none to sustain that Moghedian or Asmodean as the weakest channelers. All we have is a general feeling of disdain--as much our own, since the actual Chosen mix that disdain with wariness and fear of the Spider.

[Asmo]

Firstly, he had tied of that barrier, so no, he wasn't maintaining it.

 

Oh, yeah. My bad.

 

Secondly, the difference between a weak angreal and a strong one can be dramatic. The difference between the accrobat angreal and the fat man angreal more than provides for that--especially considering Rand was not yet at his full strength at that stage, and that he himself should not have had the strength to equal Lanfear.

 

Wasn't he? He had been taught a lot of stuff by Asmodean, and nothing implies that his raw strength wasn't equal to or greater than Lanfear's at that stage. As for the angreal, yeah, nothing much can be gathered. But Lanfear at least had an angreal, while Rahvin had none.

 

Furthermore, knowledge plays a very great part. Rand had that same angreal when he fought Rahvin, yet Rahvin as you state more than held his own. Much the same as how Cyndane was able to hold her own against Alivia who bore a very strong angreal. Lanfear was off balance with jealousy, Rahvin was not.

 

Precisely. So according to that, shouldn't Lanfear with her low-tier angreal be able to manhandle Rand with superior knowledge and comparable strength, since Rahvin rivalled Rand without an angreal, regardless of who was stronger between the two Forsaken? Yet Rand did mention he could overwhelm her, if he could bring himself to do it. Which also brings another point - Rand barely wanted to harm Lanfear, let alone kill her, and he was also set back by Lews Therin's obsessive mutters that threatened to take him over. He was hellbent on destroying Rahvin and we have no Lews Therin's intervention except when Rand's subconscious thoughts were causing him to transform into Lews Therin, which was earlier in their battle. Lanfear was distracted by jealousy, while Rahvin was distracted by the room turning into fire.

 

Indeed, such comparisons are possible, even if blurry. But that is my point, there are none to sustain that Moghedian or Asmodean as the weakest channelers. All we have is a general feeling of disdain--as much our own, since the actual Chosen mix that disdain with wariness and fear of the Spider.

 

Which is precisely why I'm more than reluctant to place them in a "ladder". Certain things can be done though. I remember an encounter between some of the female Forsaken, when Graendal(?) tried to use Compulsion but was overpowered, but I can't recall the details - I'm currently looking for it in my books. If you have that part fresh, it would be great if you could provide it here for reference, since we're sort of doing a "The Forsaken by strength" ranking here.

[Luckers]

Wasn't he? He had been taught a lot of stuff by Asmodean, and nothing implies that his raw strength wasn't equal to or greater than Lanfear's at that stage. As for the angreal, yeah, nothing much can be gathered. But Lanfear at least had an angreal, while Rahvin had none.

 

Actually it does, According to RJ's comment Rand's full strength is only a step or two above Lanfears, we know as of LOC that he was still increasing in strength, which means that he was not equal to Lanfear in tSR.

 

Lanfear was also in the fit of a jealous rage, and not thinking clearly. Rahvin was.

 

Precisely. So according to that, shouldn't Lanfear with her low-tier angreal be able to manhandle Rand with superior knowledge and comparable strength, since Rahvin rivalled Rand without an angreal, regardless of who was stronger between the two Forsaken? Yet Rand did mention he could overwhelm her, if he could bring himself to do it. Which also brings another point - Rand barely wanted to harm Lanfear, let alone kill her, and he was also set back by Lews Therin's obsessive mutters that threatened to take him over. He was hellbent on destroying Rahvin and we have no Lews Therin's intervention except when Rand's subconscious thoughts were causing him to transform into Lews Therin, which was earlier in their battle. Lanfear was distracted by jealousy, while Rahvin was distracted by the room turning into fire.

 

Firstly, Rahvin wasn't fighting when the room turned to fire--he wasn't bettering Rand, wasn't matching him--he was holding off fire, and got himself balefired in the cause. Lanfear's jealousy was not so--last minute.

 

And yes, Lanfear should have been able to defeat Rand with her superior knowledge--except she wasn't employing it. The descriptions show quite clearly that she fell into a slugmatch with Rand, pure strength against pure strength. And in that situation yes, had Rand allowed LTT to employ his superior knowledge (which im assuming is what you mean when you speak of Rand thinking he could defeat her--the only time he conciders that is when he feels LTT's thoughts rising, offering suggestions) he would have destroyed her. Unless she regained herself enough to employ her own knowledge to protect herself, in which case things even out.

 

Which is precisely why I'm more than reluctant to place them in a "ladder". Certain things can be done though. I remember an encounter between some of the female Forsaken, when Graendal(?) tried to use Compulsion but was overpowered, but I can't recall the details - I'm currently looking for it in my books. If you have that part fresh, it would be great if you could provide it here for reference, since we're sort of doing a "The Forsaken by strength" ranking here. 

 

Graendal is not overwhelmed, she manages to compel Cyndane and Moghedian (and Cyndane is stronger than she by a fair bit) but then Shaidar Haren pops in and banishes the source.

 

I'm just saying, the suggestion that Moghedian is the weakest is unsustainable and unsuggested. She might well be, or she might not.

[Asmo]

Actually it does, According to RJ's comment Rand's full strength is only a step or two above Lanfears, we know as of LOC that he was still increasing in strength, which means that he was not equal to Lanfear in tSR.

 

More like, he didn't know how to use his strength. All the times Lanfear overpowered Rand was because she had experience with weaves Rand did not - slicing through another person's weaves, shielding etc. Most of the comments on Rand's strength also refer to him not knowing the extent of his powers - not that Rand actually is at his full during LoC, but the gap this increase closed doesn't have to be monstrous. And "a step or two" in my view can mean that there are one or two channelers with strength between Lanfear's and Rand's, which can be quite a gap. Anyway, there isn't much point in arguing this.

 

Firstly, Rahvin wasn't fighting when the room turned to fire--he wasn't bettering Rand, wasn't matching him--he was holding off fire, and got himself balefired in the cause. Lanfear's jealousy was not so--last minute.

 

Rahvin was holding Rand in a weave. His attention was distracted and Rand broke through his weaving, and balefired him. I'm not saying that Rahvin was stronger than Rand, certainly not with the angreal, but Rahvin had Rand trapped, and it took a rather large distraction for Rand to break through. With the angreal. Plus Rand thought of Rahvin as superior to him at least in knowledge and even in power, his only advantage being his angreal. Even after assessing Rahvin's strength, nothing is shown to imply that he reviewed his statement.

 

And yes, Lanfear should have been able to defeat Rand with her superior knowledge--except she wasn't employing it. The descriptions show quite clearly that she fell into a slugmatch with Rand, pure strength against pure strength. And in that situation yes, had Rand allowed LTT to employ his superior knowledge (which im assuming is what you mean when you speak of Rand thinking he could defeat her--the only time he conciders that is when he feels LTT's thoughts rising, offering suggestions) he would have destroyed her. Unless she regained herself enough to employ her own knowledge to protect herself, in which case things even out.

 

In at least two situations Rand mentions that trying to maintain his identity made it harder to fight Lanfear. And Lanfear was using her superior knowledge of weaves, and Rand was using (part of) Lews Therin's knowledge to counter them. Near the end of their struggle, Rand thinks he could use lightning or fire to kill her even as she was attacking him, and we have no hint that this was just an assumption, except he didn't want to kill a woman.

 

Rand was heavily impaired by all these reasons against Lanfear. They were both using angreal, and Lanfear's was probably weaker than Rand's, but I can see the difference between them being minimal in Lanfear's favor, if that.

 

Graendal is not overwhelmed, she manages to compel Cyndane and Moghedian (and Cyndane is stronger than she by a fair bit) but then Shaidar Haren pops in and banishes the source.

 

I'm just saying, the suggestion that Moghedian is the weakest is unsustainable and unsuggested. She might well be, or she might not.

 

I see. But Graendal was using an angreal, yes?

 

Oh, and I also located a quote saying that Asmodean is the weakest of all the Forsaken.

[balefireruinssteaks]

Keeping in mind though that even the weakest Forsaken is phenomenally more powerful than your standard Aes Sedai.

 

(1) When Moghedien is shot with Birgitte's arrow, then Healed by Chesmal, Liandrin assumes she's weakened enough to use Compulsion on...but even in that state of being shot and the aftermath of Healing, the amount of the One Power that Moghedien can hold blows Liandrin (in full health, who is not considered weak) out of the water. 

 

(2) Alviarin states that after Ishamael plucks her out and puts her at the head of the Black Ajah, she is visited by other Forsaken who all in their own way showed how vastly powerful they were, what an "insect" Alviarin was compared to them in strength.  She mentions Graendal and Lanfear, and Semhirage I think.  Alviarin is not considered a weak Aes Sedai either if I'm not mistaken - she at least is at a power level where she can accomplish Traveling.

 

So even a weak Forsaken is not exactly weak.

[Luckers]

More like, he didn't know how to use his strength. All the times Lanfear overpowered Rand was because she had experience with weaves Rand did not - slicing through another person's weaves, shielding etc. Most of the comments on Rand's strength also refer to him not knowing the extent of his powers - not that Rand actually is at his full during LoC, but the gap this increase closed doesn't have to be monstrous. And "a step or two" in my view can mean that there are one or two channelers with strength between Lanfear's and Rand's, which can be quite a gap. Anyway, there isn't much point in arguing this.

 

The step or two refered to the 21 level chart. Rand could stand at level 22 or level 23, no higher. And there are several channelers we know of in that gap--Moridin, Demandred, Aginor, Taim, Logain--though Taim, Logain, Aginor and Demandred may stand exactly even with Lanfear, depending on whether it was 'a level' or 'two'.

 

From there i must stand against myself, however. Rand's comment about still increasing in strength came just before the siege of Cairhein, in tSR, not in LoC. I'm sorry i got confused. But in that he is quite clear, he is still increasing in strength, and this just weeks before his confrontation with Rahvin.

 

Rahvin was holding Rand in a weave. His attention was distracted and Rand broke through his weaving, and balefired him. I'm not saying that Rahvin was stronger than Rand, certainly not with the angreal, but Rahvin had Rand trapped, and it took a rather large distraction for Rand to break through. With the angreal. Plus Rand thought of Rahvin as superior to him at least in knowledge and even in power, his only advantage being his angreal. Even after assessing Rahvin's strength, nothing is shown to imply that he reviewed his statement.

 

He was holding Rand with a manipulation of TAR, not the Power. And Rand never implied Rahvin was stronger than him in the Power--he states that Rahvin's attacks were strong--perhaps even as strong as his own could have been. But that is a subjective judgement, and we know as a fact that men sense very little even of other ment channeling.

 

In at least two situations Rand mentions that trying to maintain his identity made it harder to fight Lanfear. And Lanfear was using her superior knowledge of weaves, and Rand was using (part of) Lews Therin's knowledge to counter them. Near the end of their struggle, Rand thinks he could use lightning or fire to kill her even as she was attacking him, and we have no hint that this was just an assumption, except he didn't want to kill a woman.

 

Lanfear was using her knowledge of where a man's weaves would strike in order to slice them, no more. And Rand was doing little better with LTT. It was a slug match, pure strength against pure strength.

 

As for at the end, no. Rand wishes he could use lightning or fire to end it, but that speaks only to his inhibitions against violence--he doesn't know that it would work, that Lanfear wouldn't block it. LTT rises at that point offering ways it is possible, but he suppresses the man.

 

I don't really see what your comment about him suppressing LTT means.

 

Rand was heavily impaired by all these reasons against Lanfear. They were both using angreal, and Lanfear's was probably weaker than Rand's, but I can see the difference between them being minimal in Lanfear's favor, if that.

 

Rand was impaired, true--i don't see the relevance of that. Lanfear was just as impaired--she was in the grips of a jealous rage, and clearly bereft of her senses. And why can't you see that the differences between a weak and a strong angreal would be important? The difference can be dramatic, and arn't you trying to argue Rand had to be equal to Lanfear in strength? Wouldn't the difference in strength between their angreal be critical to your argument?

 

Quote from: Luckers on May 06, 2008, 09:00:48 AM

Graendal is not overwhelmed, she manages to compel Cyndane and Moghedian (and Cyndane is stronger than she by a fair bit) but then Shaidar Haren pops in and banishes the source.

 

I'm just saying, the suggestion that Moghedian is the weakest is unsustainable and unsuggested. She might well be, or she might not.

 

 

I see. But Graendal was using an angreal, yes?

 

Yes? Whats the significance? She caught them both by surprise, and even without an angreal dividing her flows two ways is not beyond her.

 

Oh, and I also located a quote saying that Asmodean is the weakest of all the Forsaken.

 

Cool. Care to quote it? It would be nice to have another one locked in place.