mat's foxhead medallion

[Luckers]

I agree with all those points' date=' but luckers, I believe that 'spark' weave was the Aes Sedai tossing sparks from a fire at him, not an actual electricity weave. i don't have KoD to reference though since I want the series in paperback, so I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure on that point.[/quote']

 

No, there was no fireball. The first we see of the 'spark' effect is when Bethamin used it on the Aes Sedai, and it is described specifically as a weave that made sparks only, which none of the Aes Sedai had ever seen. The second time it is seen, it was used, and was successful, against Mat by the Aes Sedai when they were testing what would and would not work. Put together with the fact that in discription it exactly matches what was used on Elayne by the device Asne had which RJ described as the hand pistol version of shocklances, and Asne says of it that it could be used in a streetfull of sisters without them senseing a thing. Together it paints a picture of the sparks being an non-power electric effect similar to the photoelectric effect, one which, like lightning, can be catalysed by the power.

 

Fireballs, incidently, are not side-effects. We have seen fireballs disolve when used against a ter'angreal that disrupts flows of the power. Additionally, all lightning weaves are the same, they don't need to be summoned from a storm. The weave simply energizes electrons in the atmosphere, and provides a path for them to earth themselves. It's like, the power acts like a gun, it gives the energy for the bullet to move, and directs it, but the bullet itself isn't power. In many ways its just a more subtle form of throwing something at mat, only they are throwing something very, very small... being electrons.

 

In the same way, i personally think that balefire is a directed effect, rather then a weave itself. The weave causes the balefire to form, and directs its path, and strength--incidently, to the person who suggested that channeler can't control lightning strength, i would say that that is exactly what the spark weave is... it is inciting electrons to move, but on a much smaller scale.

[Luckers]

I agree with all those points' date=' but luckers, I believe that 'spark' weave was the Aes Sedai tossing sparks from a fire at him, not an actual electricity weave. i don't have KoD to reference though since I want the series in paperback, so I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure on that point.[/quote']

 

No, there was no fireball. The first we see of the 'spark' effect is when Bethamin used it on the Aes Sedai, and it is described specifically as a weave that made sparks only, which none of the Aes Sedai had ever seen. The second time it is seen, it was used, and was successful, against Mat by the Aes Sedai when they were testing what would and would not work. Put together with the fact that in discription it exactly matches what was used on Elayne by the device Asne had which RJ described as the hand pistol version of shocklances, and Asne says of it that it could be used in a streetfull of sisters without them senseing a thing. Together it paints a picture of the sparks being an non-power electric effect similar to the photoelectric effect, one which, like lightning, can be catalysed by the power.

 

Fireballs, incidently, are not side-effects. We have seen fireballs disolve when used against a ter'angreal that disrupts flows of the power. Additionally, all lightning weaves are the same, they don't need to be summoned from a storm. The weave simply energizes electrons in the atmosphere, and provides a path for them to earth themselves. It's like, the power acts like a gun, it gives the energy for the bullet to move, and directs it, but the bullet itself isn't power. In many ways its just a more subtle form of throwing something at mat, only they are throwing something very, very small... being electrons.

 

In the same way, i personally think that balefire is a directed effect, rather then a weave itself. The weave causes the balefire to form, and directs its path, and strength--incidently, to the person who suggested that channeler can't control lightning strength, i would say that that is exactly what the spark weave is... it is inciting electrons to move, but on a much smaller scale.

[Jedimuppet]

I agree with all those points' date=' but luckers, I believe that 'spark' weave was the Aes Sedai tossing sparks from a fire at him, not an actual electricity weave. i don't have KoD to reference though since I want the series in paperback, so I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure on that point.[/quote']

 

No, there was no fireball. The first we see of the 'spark' effect is when Bethamin used it on the Aes Sedai, and it is described specifically as a weave that made sparks only, which none of the Aes Sedai had ever seen. The second time it is seen, it was used, and was successful, against Mat by the Aes Sedai when they were testing what would and would not work. Put together with the fact that in discription it exactly matches what was used on Elayne by the device Asne had which RJ described as the hand pistol version of shocklances, and Asne says of it that it could be used in a streetfull of sisters without them senseing a thing. Together it paints a picture of the sparks being an non-power electric effect similar to the photoelectric effect, one which, like lightning, can be catalysed by the power.

 

Fireballs, incidently, are not side-effects. We have seen fireballs disolve when used against a ter'angreal that disrupts flows of the power. Additionally, all lightning weaves are the same, they don't need to be summoned from a storm. The weave simply energizes electrons in the atmosphere, and provides a path for them to earth themselves. It's like, the power acts like a gun, it gives the energy for the bullet to move, and directs it, but the bullet itself isn't power. In many ways its just a more subtle form of throwing something at mat, only they are throwing something very, very small... being electrons.

 

In the same way, i personally think that balefire is a directed effect, rather then a weave itself. The weave causes the balefire to form, and directs its path, and strength--incidently, to the person who suggested that channeler can't control lightning strength, i would say that that is exactly what the spark weave is... it is inciting electrons to move, but on a much smaller scale.

 

As far as the lightning: we've seen storms summoned that cause lots of natural lightning to strike the battlefield (which would hurt Mat), and we've also seen people summoning single lightning bolts to strike specific people (which would not hurt Mat).

J

[Luckers]

The latter would be no different to the former, physics demands it. Moreover, we have seen a focused electric effect on a minor scale hurt mat, so im not sure where your evidence is in making that blanket statement.

[Jedimuppet]

The latter would be no different to the former' date=' physics demands it. Moreover, we have seen a focused electric effect on a minor scale hurt mat, so im not sure where your evidence is in making that blanket statement.[/quote']

 

It would be different..in the one case, it's an active use of the OP, and in the other case a passive use. It's right in the books; if you throw something at him made of the one power, it will fail, but if you throw something at him that's already around it will not fail.

 

It's about intent and direction; not sure why you think physics has anything to do with it. If a channeler would be prevented from casting a bolt of lightning directly at Mat (and he would), then by your "physics" argument, lightning could never hit him, because they're made of the same thing. The difference is one exists because of the power, and the other was naturally formed.

 

In certain cases, the rationale in the previous paragraph can find a loophole.

J

[Luckers]

It would be different..in the one case, it's an active use of the OP, and in the other case a passive use. It's right in the books; if you throw something at him made of the one power, it will fail, but if you throw something at him that's already around it will not fail.

 

It is not an active use of the power, they are both passive, with or without a storm. Lightning is moving electrons. For electrons to move, they need a catalyst. That catalyst is the power. Throwing electrons at someone is like throwing a rock. It is not a direct effect of the power.

[bcxanth]

It is not an active use of the power' date=' they are both passive, with or without a storm. Lightning is moving electrons. For electrons to move, they need a catalyst. That catalyst is the power. Throwing electrons at someone is like throwing a rock. It is not a direct effect of the power.[/quote']That argument really can't work. In physics you're taught that nothing is truly created or destroyed, energy or whatever (I can't remember exactly because it's early, I'm sick, and on allergy meds) only takes different forms. So if you want to take such a strict view of it, everything done with channeling is just an indirect manipulation of particles by the OP so so therefore any weave would have to effect Mat.

[Jedimuppet]

It would be different..in the one case' date=' it's an active use of the OP, and in the other case a passive use. It's right in the books; if you throw something at him made of the one power, it will fail, but if you throw something at him that's already around it will not fail. [/quote']

 

It is not an active use of the power, they are both passive, with or without a storm. Lightning is moving electrons. For electrons to move, they need a catalyst. That catalyst is the power. Throwing electrons at someone is like throwing a rock. It is not a direct effect of the power.

 

Well you do realize that all effects of the power could be explained by some sort of physics, don't you? So by your rationale, a fireball would be passive, since all it does is leech the heat from the atmosphere and throw it at someone.

J

[bcxanth]

Well you do realize that all effects of the power could be explained by some sort of physics' date=' don't you? So by your rationale, a fireball would be passive, since all it does is leech the heat from the atmosphere and throw it at someone.[/quote'] :o Get out of my head! :P

[Guest Thom Merrilin]

I'm not sure how many people would agree with me, but i like to think of it this way.

 

If someone were to attempt to weave fire inside of mat, to let's say, blow him up( :twisted: ), we all agree this wouldn't work because the weaves inside of him wouldn't be possible. The medallion would stop the weaves from getting inside him, even if the fire was not actual weaves, but a a by-product, so he would stand there as the medallion grew cold, with no fire to see. But, if someone were to make fire, in the air, and throw it at him, it should hurt him, as long as the power was not needed to sustain it.

Which, of course, it would be needed, seeing as even in randland fire doesn't burn randomly in the air.

 

On the topic of balefire versus Mat and medallion, I feel that although the balefire itself is not the power, but a by-product, the power would be needed to be invested all along it's length, and held. That way, it explains why Rand can tell the amount of force needed to hold it, and also how those who cannot channel can see it. If this were to be true, then balefire should not hurt mat, if aimed at him, because the weaves supporting its creation would no longer exist when they reach him.

Does that sound like it makes sense :?:

[rd2000]

I'm not sure how many people would agree with me' date=' but i like to think of it this way.

 

If someone were to attempt to weave fire inside of mat, to let's say, blow him up( :twisted: ), we all agree this wouldn't work because the weaves inside of him wouldn't be possible. The medallion would stop the weaves from getting inside him, even if the fire was not actual weaves, but a a by-product, so he would stand there as the medallion grew cold, with no fire to see. But, if someone were to make fire, in the air, and throw it at him, it should hurt him, as long as the power was not needed to sustain it.

Which, of course, it would be needed, seeing as even in randland fire doesn't burn randomly in the air.

 

On the topic of balefire versus Mat and medallion, I feel that although the balefire itself is not the power, but a by-product, the power would be needed to be invested all along it's length, and held. That way, it explains why Rand can tell the amount of force needed to hold it, and also how those who cannot channel can see it. If this were to be true, then balefire should not hurt mat, if aimed at him, because the weaves supporting its creation would no longer exist when they reach him.

Does that sound like it makes sense :?:[/quote']

 

A weave would be needed to maintain the fire. So throwing fire at Mat would be useless.

Since you mentioned it, I do recall Rand being able to control how far balefire burned (when he was killing the Darkhound attacking Mat, I believe)

So that indicates that balefire is a weave along it's entire length. Which would make balefire useless against Mat.Though I do think if you walked up to Mat, placed your hand an inch from his back, and released balefire from your hand, he would be toast. The Gholam can't stand contact with the medallion, but sure can touch Mat safely.

[firheruwen]

I would guess balefire wouldn't work on him wearing the medallion, but just to be sure it should be tested. Maybe on Faile.

It is a weave, and I just don't see why it would be exempt. But certainly Balefiring a building that Mat was in would be lethal...

[Guest Thom Merrilin]

OOOPs! i had written this twice, so now ill just erase this one

[Guest Thom Merrilin]

rd200 wrote:A weave would be needed to maintain the fire. So throwing fire at Mat would be useless.

 

I did say that, you must have been skimming it.

 

I agree with everything you said, almost, because it was similar to what I said. I do not believe thought, that proximity would change whether or not balefire works on him, the medallion, so far, has protected his whole body everywhere, so long as he touched it(unless that has changed past aCoS).

 

But, you raised an interesting point with the gholam. The way I see it, the medallion never protected him from the gholam touching him, because it never protected him at all, but hurt the gholam. Maybe the medallion works against the gholam becasue by touching it, it was transferring its protection from Mat to Mr.gholam, which worked against it's weave absorbance they shared. Like vaccuming a vaccum, wouldn't work too well would it?

 

Also, on that balefiring a building over mat topic, it really all depends on how far back in time you balefired it.Maybe if you balefired it far back enough, it would just seem like one second Mat's in a building, next, he's standing on rubble :lol: , so long as, of course, you didn't just make the building disapear. :lol:

[algspkr]

It can't be a weave. It is the product of a weave just as lightning and fireballs are the products of other weaves.

 

Why do I say this? Weaves are invisible to regular people. Balefire' date=' on the other hand, is visible to anyone. This is surely indicative of the fact that it is not a weave in and of itself, but rather an extremely destructive ray brought about by an offensive weave.[/quote']

In ACoS when Rand and the Asha'men goto Illian they throw about the OP, and everyone sees it.

[algspkr]

It would be different..in the one case' date=' it's an active use of the OP, and in the other case a passive use. It's right in the books; if you throw something at him made of the one power, it will fail, but if you throw something at him that's already around it will not fail. [/quote']

 

It is not an active use of the power, they are both passive, with or without a storm. Lightning is moving electrons. For electrons to move, they need a catalyst. That catalyst is the power. Throwing electrons at someone is like throwing a rock. It is not a direct effect of the power.

 

Well you do realize that all effects of the power could be explained by some sort of physics, don't you? So by your rationale, a fireball would be passive, since all it does is leech the heat from the atmosphere and throw it at someone.

J

But it is the power that holds it together until it reaches its target.

[algspkr]

I'm not sure how many people would agree with me' date=' but i like to think of it this way.

 

If someone were to attempt to weave fire inside of mat, to let's say, blow him up( :twisted: ), we all agree this wouldn't work because the weaves inside of him wouldn't be possible. The medallion would stop the weaves from getting inside him, even if the fire was not actual weaves, but a a by-product, so he would stand there as the medallion grew cold, with no fire to see. But, if someone were to make fire, in the air, and throw it at him, it should hurt him, as long as the power was not needed to sustain it.

Which, of course, it would be needed, seeing as even in randland fire doesn't burn randomly in the air.

 

On the topic of balefire versus Mat and medallion, I feel that although the balefire itself is not the power, but a by-product, the power would be needed to be invested all along it's length, and held. That way, it explains why Rand can tell the amount of force needed to hold it, and also how those who cannot channel can see it. If this were to be true, then balefire should not hurt mat, if aimed at him, because the weaves supporting its creation would no longer exist when they reach him.

Does that sound like it makes sense :?:[/quote']

Assuming you are correct about the nature of balefire due to its paradoxil functioning it may indeed hurt Mat.

[Luckers]

It is not an active use of the power' date=' they are both passive, with or without a storm. Lightning is moving electrons. For electrons to move, they need a catalyst. That catalyst is the power. Throwing electrons at someone is like throwing a rock. It is not a direct effect of the power.[/quote']That argument really can't work. In physics you're taught that nothing is truly created or destroyed, energy or whatever (I can't remember exactly because it's early, I'm sick, and on allergy meds) only takes different forms. So if you want to take such a strict view of it, everything done with channeling is just an indirect manipulation of particles by the OP so so therefore any weave would have to effect Mat.

 

Yes and no--you arn't seeing the implications. You see, whilst everything would be a manipulation of the natural state... and must be, lightning is different--and that is the point. Lightining is the incitation at point A, for something to move. In that movement the particles at point A move to point B in a lightning bolt. The power is effecting only point A whilst Mat stands in point B, and is hit.

 

So. The power gives energy to certain electrons, making them want to jump to the nearest positive point... it then funnels that jump towards mat, none of which would touch mat, and therefore the effect on mat could be termed a secondary use of the power.

 

In the same manner, throwing a rock at mat would involve using the power to lift the rock, aim and throw it... the rock would hit mat, and be a secondary use of the power, because the powers influence on the world would never be near mat.

 

A fireball, on the other hand, would need the power to contain and hold it. As it came near mat that power would fade away, and with it the fireball. Theoretically you could create a controlled fireball with fuel and the like away from mat, and throw it at him, and so on and so forth.

 

So, you see, your objection doesn't work--anything that involve the power near mat will not come to be--anything that is started by the power away from mat, and is merely funneled towards him, can be. Lightning, i was saying, is not some magical event, it is the result of the movement of matter... tiny, tiny matter, but working on the exact same principals as throwing a rock.

 

It's like algspkr said,

 

But it is the power that holds it together until it reaches its target.

 

Lightning doesn't require this, it just requires a basic direction at the begining... a nudge, and it will follow that path, because lightning will follow the easiest path avaliable. In the manner that you can predict where a rock will land based on the physics of projectile motion, so you can with the way lightning will ground itself, and therefore you do no need a storm of any sort... any lightning will do, as is indeed shown by the 'spark' weave. Fireballs on the other hand need the maintaining effect of the weave to the end, and therefore fade.

[Jedimuppet]

It would be different..in the one case' date=' it's an active use of the OP, and in the other case a passive use. It's right in the books; if you throw something at him made of the one power, it will fail, but if you throw something at him that's already around it will not fail. [/quote']

 

It is not an active use of the power, they are both passive, with or without a storm. Lightning is moving electrons. For electrons to move, they need a catalyst. That catalyst is the power. Throwing electrons at someone is like throwing a rock. It is not a direct effect of the power.

 

Well you do realize that all effects of the power could be explained by some sort of physics, don't you? So by your rationale, a fireball would be passive, since all it does is leech the heat from the atmosphere and throw it at someone.

J

But it is the power that holds it together until it reaches its target.

 

Same as a lightning bolt; that's my point. One coming from a storm above is not directed/held by the power.

J

[Guest Thom Merrilin]

Since were all on the lightning theory, you must remember, like one of you said, lightning hits the easiest target, or something along those lines.

 

So if you were too setup the condtions for a lightning bolt too happen, you would need mat to be the easiest target, unless it is guided by the OP, which I think everyone has agreed wouldn't work on mat? And luckers, I guess if you somehow made it unlikely or impossible for the lightning to hit anywhere except for mat's immediate area, or if you guided it there, then he would be made the easiest target and and get struck.

 

Of course, you could get enough lightning bolts to happen, perhaps they would strike the top 100 easiest targets, and mat would be one of them.

 

Also, on what you were trying to say about throwing fuel at mat and lighting it before it hit him, that might work too, since inertia would cary it the rest of the way.

 

And algspkr, when you talk about the asha'man I think you are talking about Dumai wells in LoC, and there no one except rand noticed the Saidin, although everyone did notice the exploding heads of the Shaido.

 

Something everyone really has to remember though, who in the wheel of time would think of all this by the time they realise that the power does not work directly on him? Would anyone except those who studied his medallion have any idea that it only affected direct weaves after they tried to blow him up? I agree that it is fun to find what would work against him and what would not, but I doubt any of this will be used in the books to this degree.

[Trib4l]

But isn't the lightning that killed Mat exactly what you are describing? Something directed at his general area?

[Guest Thom Merrilin]

We're are actually discussing what would, and what wouldn't affect mat and his medallion, I think, or at least something along those lines.

 

When I said general area, I meant just close enough to make him the easiest path for the lightning to the ground.

 

I am assuming that when he was killed, the lightning that hit him fell under one of those categories I described, since I am also assuming that what I described is correct.

 

If all that it was when it struck him was lightning aimed at his general area, then that kind of proves my theory, or at least part of it.

 

What I remember of when he was struck was that mat and others all died from the traps Rhavin(I think that's spelt right) laid. I do not remember any more that, although I think someone already wrote that mat was definately struck by the lightning(apparently RJ said it)