To live you must die

[Kalak]

this prophecy is slightly confusing to me but heres a theory

 

Neavye*sp* has always complained about not being able to heal death I think after the last battle is won maybe she trys one last time and actually manages to bring Rand back

 

this probably wont happen but its just a kind of krazy theory

[Guest Winespring Brother]

You know, I don't quite think that Nyneave is going to heal death, but I think she could be involved in bringing Rand back. I'll just wait for Maj to shoot me down on this cos I know he disagrees, but I think Rand will have a Birgitte done on him. I say this because Rand's body has taken such a pounding that there it is almost beyond hope. He's got a hole in his side, no hand, going blind and suffering from some mystery sickness. So if Rand does actually die, I think that Nyneave will pull him out of tel'aran'rhiod like Moghedien did to Birgitte. This is of course dependent upon Rand being a hero of the horn. Something that seems certain to me, but is a topic for another thread. Anyway, it gives a way for Rand to die and then live again, but with a new body the second time around.

 

Another, perhaps more likely, scenario is that Rand will fake his own death. We have seen hints of this with Egwene's vision of Logain stepping over Rand's body, but it crumbles away or something.

[Jedimuppet]

You know' date=' I don't quite think that Nyneave is going to heal death, but I think she could be involved in bringing Rand back. I'll just wait for Maj to shoot me down on this cos I know he disagrees, but I think Rand will have a Birgitte done on him. I say this because Rand's body has taken such a pounding that there it is almost beyond hope. He's got a hole in his side, no hand, going blind and suffering from some mystery sickness. So if Rand does actually die, I think that Nyneave will pull him out of tel'aran'rhiod like Moghedien did to Birgitte. This is of course dependent upon Rand being a hero of the horn. Something that seems certain to me, but is a topic for another thread. Anyway, it gives a way for Rand to die and then live again, but with a new body the second time around.

 

Another, perhaps more likely, scenario is that Rand will fake his own death. We have seen hints of this with Egwene's vision of Logain stepping over Rand's body, but it crumbles away or something.[/quote']

 

I don't know how it will work out, but I believe he really will die. We've seen characters die and come back already.

 

Part of me also thinks that the death will be LTT's, and he'll be free to rediscover his humanity. Seems a little optimistic, so I'm not sure.

J

[Guest Majsju]

No way Rand is a Hero of the Horn, which pretty much kills that theory.

[FelixA9]

No way Rand is a Hero of the Horn' date=' which pretty much kills that theory.[/quote']

 

Why not? Because you don't like him? When the horn was blown and the heros appeared out of the mist they spoke to Rand like he was an old friend. Besides, how could you possibly think the one chosen to face the dark one DOESN'T qualify? :roll:

[Smoosh]

If Rand isn't a hero of the horn, he is still tied to the wheel, same as the heros. Whats to say that there needs to be another LTT (Or in this case RA'T) rebirth in the 4th age? Then he can chill out in the World of Dreams. Which then means that he can be ripped from it if he is dead.

 

 

It makes sense that there wont be another Dragon in the 4th Age. There couldnt have been one in what was the 1st Age. They didn't compare LTT to anyone. He just was who he was. They compared RA'T to LTT because he existed in the memories of the people. I think it says somewhere, or hints, that people need at least 2 ages to dismiss something to myth. They still thought (think) of LTT as a man. Now, at the end of the Age. They can't have 2 bases for the Dragon. Then everything would be all confused.

 

 

 

oh, and RA'T = Rand al'Thor....

[Inara]

yeah, and the next time the dragon is needed, people will be comparing him to Rand al'Thor...this madman who broke the world, yadayadayah

rand will be in his head ranting and raving

the hero's will have been spun out again and know him personally, there will be new dreadlords to replace the forsaken...it wll be the same except that the names will all belong to the ppl in this story.

[Guest Winespring Brother]

No way Rand is a Hero of the Horn' date=' which pretty much kills that theory.[/quote']

 

Nothing that you have ever said Maj has convinced me more that what Hawkwing said,

 

"I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more. The wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the pattern."

[Luckers]

Firstly, i would say the evidence deeply suggests that Rand is in fact a hero of the horn, but that heroes who are currently already in play dont answer the horn. What hawkwing says pretty much proves that.

 

Secondly, i believe that evidence supports the Morirand theory. i.e. that Rand and Moridin will swap bodies, and that rands body with moridin inside will be killed by Alivia... Many, many of the visions... from 'she will help you die' to all the fake funerals support this.

[Guest Majsju]

Seriously, nothing suggests that Rand would be tied to the Horn.

 

The Dragon is a unique soul, as far as we know only spun out for one very specific reason: to directly fight against the DO.

 

The Heroes serve a different function, they are spun out in a way somewhat similar to ta'veren, to correct the pattern, to bring it on the right path, to help set up conditions for things to come, to execute events in a way that makes it more efficient etc.

 

That Hawkwing and Birgitte recognized Rand, and LTT in him...Well, between their incarnations they keep all their memories of their past lives. We know that at least Birgitte was alive and about during the War of Power, thus she most likely met LTT then. It's not too far stretched to think that Hawkwing was around then as well.

 

It does not make sense to have the Dragon tied to the Horn, with the different purposes. And with the Heroes available for anyone blowing the Horn. Imagine if the shadow had found the Horn during the trolloc wars, blown it and all of a sudden the Shadow would have been led by LTT...

[rd2000]

I agree, if anyone, or two people can not be tied to the Horn of Valere, it would be Lews Therin and Rand.

Obviously, Darkfriends are exempt from the horn too.

[Guest Majsju]

I don't think DF's are necessarily excluded. For example, when Hawkwing says that he has though against LTT, that more than hints at Hawkwing having been on the wrong side, as we've gotten quite a few hints that the Dragon has always been fighting for the Light. Now, being against the Dragon doesn't mean someone is a DF, we've seen plenty of opposition against Rand from people we can be pretty darn sure walk in the light.

 

But if the Heroes are a control mechanism, what says that one of them can't be spun out as a DF, just because it's necessary in the greater weave for certain events to take place?

 

Not very lilely, but an interesting possibility.

[Smoosh]

Heros can be DFs, but they probably need to repent. The horn is meant for use by the Light, but it has been stressed alot that it can be used by the Shadow.

 

And as I said, the Horn is not the only way to be bound into T'A'R. Every time it has been mentioned, they have been "Tied to the Wheel." LTT (or whoever his soul originally belonged to) could have been bound to the wheel and stuck in the World of Dreams. There is nothing saying he wasn't, and followed the rules and never let himself get seen.

[Guest Winespring Brother]

Knowing Lews Therin from the war of the Power is hardly equivalent to saying you have fought with him times beyind number. You are correct in saying that we have seen nothing to indicate that the Dragon is ever spun out for anything other than fighting the Dark One, but when you consider that Rand is doing that now, Lews Therin did it in the previous age... add an endlessly turning wheel of time and you have a huge number of occasions that the Dragon has faced the DO. There is nothing to suggest that between those occasions when the pattern requires a Dragon, his soul does not reside in tel'aran'rhiod just like all the other heroes. His function is not that different from all the others. He is spun out as a corrective mechanism, and not necessarily with any less frequency then some of the others. Indeed, one of the heroes is said to be spun out to signal the end of an age.

 

You also say imagine how it would be if the Shadow got hold of the Horn, blew it, and out came Lews Therin. Devastating to be sure, but ALL the heroes of the horn are indistructable it seems when the horn is blown. They are hardly true representations of what they are when they are alive.

 

Aside from what Hawkwing says to Rand, there are two other things that say to me Rnad is a hero of the Horn. First of all, when the heroes appear riding down a wall of mist,we get "they were little more than a hundred, Rand saw, and realized that somehow he knew that they would be". How would Rand know this if it wasn't because he is often part of that group? Not only is this before we see Rand start to get Lews Therin's memories come through, but why would Lews Therin know anything about the Horn? It wasn't used in his age. If he had access to it he would have used it against the Shadow. In fact, it wasn't found again until after he died.

Secondly, when the Heroes first try to ride off to fight the Seanchan, Hawkwing says that something is holding them back. He then asks Rand if he has the Dragon banner. This indicates to me that the heroes require the Dragon banner to ride forth, as if when the horn is normally blown it is the Dragon with his banner that leads them forth.

 

So the heroes know Rand, he vaguely knows them, and they need his banner to ride. As far as I am concerned the only thing that could make this case any clearer would be RJ saying it out right, which he probably won't do because it could be a RAFO for the next book.

[Guest Winespring Brother]

Heros can be DFs' date=' but they probably need to repent. The horn is [i']meant[/i] for use by the Light, but it has been stressed alot that it can be used by the Shadow.

 

Just to say, hasn't it only been Aes Sedai who said the Shadow can use the horn? How do they know? They have been wrong before, afterall.

[rd2000]

The Horn was made as a weapon to fight the DO. How and when was it made? Doesn't it pre-date the AOL? And, it's use is tied to Tarmon Gaidon.

Rand knowing the number of the heroes could simply be knowledge of the Horn filtering through Lews and LTT's knowledge, or rather, the AOL's knowledge of the Horn.

As for Darkfriends blowing the horn, I gathered that DF's wouldn't be able to compel the hero's to fight for them, but would rather be able to deny the light the use of the hero's.

[Guest Winespring Brother]

We don't know who made the horn, or when, though I think RJ did say you could say it was made by mortals. It was very much still a legend in the AoL. It was never used in that age because before the war started they had no need for it. Even war was unknown. So if it wasn't used, why would AoL people know how many heroes it called forth?

[Guest Majsju]

<Aside from what Hawkwing says to Rand, there are two other things that say to me Rnad is a hero of the Horn. First of all, when the heroes appear riding down a wall of mist,we get "they were little more than a hundred, Rand saw, and realized that somehow he knew that they would be". How would Rand know this if it wasn't because he is often part of that group? Not only is this before we see Rand start to get Lews Therin's memories come through, but why would Lews Therin know anything about the Horn? It wasn't used in his age. If he had access to it he would have used it against the Shadow. In fact, it wasn't found again until after he died.>

 

A memory of a memory? How could rand earlier "remember" that he had never joined the DO, when Ishy claimed so?

Or a memory from when they used the portal stone earlier, Rand saw many possibilities of how his life would turn out if he had made a different choice somewhere along the way. It's quite possible that he had seen himself blow the Horn at some poijt. For example when Lanfear tried to convince him to do so.

 

< Secondly, when the Heroes first try to ride off to fight the Seanchan, Hawkwing says that something is holding them back. He then asks Rand if he has the Dragon banner. This indicates to me that the heroes require the Dragon banner to ride forth, as if when the horn is normally blown it is the Dragon with his banner that leads them forth.>

 

Been through that so many times already. This is a crucial point in the Wheel. The Wheel Demands that the Dragon Reborn proclaims himself. The Wheel is responsible for projecting Rand's fight against Ishy all over the place. And Hawkwing himself says that something is wrong, that the need to follow the banner is out of the ordinary.

 

It's the Wheel taking firm action, making damn sure that Rand has no other choice than to proclaim himself. He's been avoiding that responsibility far too long, now the Wheel steps in and removes all possible ways for rand to avoid hus duty, short of running away and abandon his friends.

[Guest Winespring Brother]

Actually, Hawkwing makes no reference to the need for the banner to be ordinary or a one off. He says "Something is wrong here. Something holds me", then "You are here. Have you the banner?"

 

Its impossible to say from those words "that the need to follow the banner is out of the ordinary".

 

I'll grant you that the trip through the portal stone could have granted Rand some vision of the heroes, but seeing as that was such a recent event at that time, you would think he would recall it more directly if he remembered at all. The way it is written as he somehow knew the number makes it seem more likely the knowledge came from within him, from who he was.

[Guest Majsju]

<Actually, Hawkwing makes no reference to the need for the banner to be ordinary or a one off. He says "Something is wrong here. Something holds me", then "You are here. Have you the banner?"

 

Its impossible to say from those words "that the need to follow the banner is out of the ordinary">

 

Saying that something is wrong usually indicates that something is out of the ordinary.

 

But even so, even if your assumption is right, that would only mean that the Heroes are tied to the Dragon, not that the Dragon is one of them, and thus tied to the Horn. Those are two completely different things.

 

 

<I'll grant you that the trip through the portal stone could have granted Rand some vision of the heroes, but seeing as that was such a recent event at that time, you would think he would recall it more directly if he remembered at all. The way it is written as he somehow knew the number makes it seem more likely the knowledge came from within him, from who he was.>

 

It's one of several possible explanations. And really, seeing a couple of hundred different versions of your life flash before your eyes will not mean you have a clear memory of everything. What Rand seems to recall the strongest is the moments where he is defeated, which would be quite natural, the strongest emotions leave the strongest imprints.

 

Another very possible explanations could be a simple memory of hearing the legends about the heroes, and subconsciously making a quick count.

[Aviendha]

I find it hard to believe that it could be even think that Rand is not one of the Heros...they greet him like a long lost friend, slap him on the back and commenting about the women he has got involved with ... He's one of them and I could even consider it otherwise.

 

My take on it is that there is a finite number of Heros that are born into whatever 'body' is suitable for the particular time they are to be born into to do the job that is needed in that time. Across the ages they can be born as different people - different names. But each time the same age comes around the same person is born - if the conditions leading up to that birth are correct. Multiple paths but the Wheel weaves on.

 

In theory a Hero (even the Dragon) could turn to the shadow depending on the circumstances of the life that he/she was born into. Once born they are only human after all and have no special knowledge to guide them along the way.

 

As for Horn, the Heros come at the call of the Horn but follow the Dragon. The Dragon Banner symbolised the Dragon .. and the Banner had to fly for them to follow it. Rand, who hadn't proclaimed himself the Dragon at this point, had his own job to do. The Heros couldn't be killed because they aren't alive.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Here we go again... :lol:

 

The Horn summons the Heroes. There are conditions which must be in place in order for the Heroes to take any action.

 

One condition is that the Dragon must lead. A second condition is that the Heroes must follow the Dragon Banner.

 

Mess with those conditions, and you create stresses which can rupture the Pattern. Rupturing the Pattern is the most surefire way for the DO to win.

 

So, if the DO subverts the Dragon; converts him to the Dark and the Banner and the Horn remain with the Light... Mat blows the Horn at TG and the Heroes appear but the Dragon isn't there to lead them... they are constrained by conflicting imperatives... they must follow both the Dragon and the Banner, but they can't because the Banner is with the Light and the Dragon is with the Dark... that conflict ruptures the Pattern and the DO wins free.

 

Same thing if the Dark captures the Banner, but the Dragon and the Horn remain with the Light.

 

Of course, if the Dark merely captures the Horn, the Light has no access to the Heroes. If they can capture the Horn AND kill Mat, then they can call the Heroes. If the Dragon is on the other side it's a ruptured Pattern again.

 

Ideally, the Dark subverts the Dragon, captures the Horn and the Banner, and simply wins outright.

 

So, in order for the Light to win... the Dragon must remain true to the Light... Mat and Rand must reunite... the Horn and the Banner must be with Rand and Mat.

 

As we saw at Falme, the Heroes advance when the Dragon advances. They retreat when he retreats. They win when he wins and they lose when he loses. Their results are directly tied to his.

 

The bigger implication of that is that Rand must make it all the way to whatever confrontation there will be with the DO itself, or the Heroes won't play much of a part.

[Aviendha]

Agreed. Can't wait for the next book to see how it all comes together!!

[Luckers]

The Horn summons the Heroes. There are conditions which must be in place in order for the Heroes to take any action.

 

One condition is that the Dragon must lead. A second condition is that the Heroes must follow the Dragon Banner.

 

These are not conditions. Whilst i think its undeniable that the soul of rand and Lews Therin is indeed bound to the heroes and the horn, these things you have said were not conditions of the horn. The fact that darkfriends can summon the heroes prove that, but for a more finetic arguement, hawkwings statements indicate merely a personal desire for a concious sense of rightness... the banner and all that jazz were brought up AFTER the heroes had already answered the horn.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Well, we only have a single incidence of the Horn being blown from which to judge, but...

 

Hawkwing wasn't just expressing a preference, he was expressing a requirement...

"Something is wrong here. Something holds me." Suddenly he turned a sharp-eyed gaze on Rand. "You are here. Have you the Banner?" A murmur ran through those behind him. ... "The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters," Artur Hawkwing said. "You are here. The Banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon."

 

Once the Horn is found, anyone can blow it and summon the Heroes. Until that person dies, noone else can use it to summon the Heroes. Once summoned, the Heroes are powerless to act until both the Dragon and the banner are present. If the Dragon is here, but the banner is there, the conflict between the imperatives to follow both Dragon and banner will rupture the Pattern.