The Developing of the Mordin Rand Link

[Corbett]

I remember early on when Rand starts to see the third man that turns out to be Mordin but cant find the rest of the development for the link. Could someone point me in the right direction?

[Luckers]

Are you refering to the theories around the bodyswap? Or just on the increasing strength of the link?

 

On the link we first hear of it from LTT.

 

Since his reappearance inside Rand's head, Lews Therin seldom went silent unless forced. The man seemed madder than ever most of the time, and usually angrier as well. Stronger sometimes, too. That voice invaded Rand's dreams, and when he saw himself in a dream, it was not always himself at all that he saw. It was not always Lews Therin, either, the face he had come to recognize as Lews Therin's. Sometimes it was blurred, yet vaguely familiar, and Lews Therin seemed startled by it, too. That was an indication how far the man's madness went. Or maybe his own. [TPOD: 21, Answering the Summons, 408]

 

I thought I could build, Lews Therin murmured in his head. I was wrong. We are not builders, not you, or I, or the other one. We are destroyers. Destroyers.  [WH: Prologue, Snow, 80]

 

You destroyed them already, Lews Therin whispered in his head. Now you have someone else to destroy, and not beforetime. How many will we three kill before the end, I wonder. [WH: 22, Out of Thin Air, 436-437]

 

At around the same time, in PoD, Rand starts experiencing the nausia when he draws on saidin, this continues until near the end of Winter's Heart when he sees the face of a man, and when he experiences the nausia without drawing on saidin. This continues until KoD when Rand finally sees the face of the man clearly and recognizes it as the face of the Wanderer from Shadar Logoth (i.e. Moridin) and doesn't experience the nausia.

 

If its the bodyswap you wanted let me know. I have it somewhere on my hard drive. Hope that helps.

[Corbett]

Thanks alot Luckers. That definatley helped alot. I actually just got done reading the body swap theory post and was wondering about the link. The only question I have left is where abouts in KoD does he realize this?

[Luckers]

Just before the Trollocs attack in Tear.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Later on Rand notices something else about the link. He feels that "if either he or [Moridin] move a hairswidth, they would touch." So that will be how the bodyswap comes about if it does.

 

I wonder if they will be able to communicate through the link?

[Corbett]

Do we ever see the link from Mordin's PoV?

 

[Luckers]

No, though people suggest that the link and the nausia that comes with it is why Moridin gave up on using saidin altogether, and re-issued the no-kill order. Also, Rand gets an image of Moridin looking 'sick and angry' which sounds like the effects of the nausia hitting him.

[Shaidar_Rannow]

Though I have no desire to argue the bodyswap(which I find unlikely). There is no doubt the link is gaining not strength persay but clarity. I dont think the effects are getting worse, just more clear. I think in AMOL BS will let us know all the juicy details but until then we must speculate. I personally believe that this link may cause some good effects soon. Perhaps a link similar to a warder link. Not so much the feelings and all, but I think eventually Rand and Mordin will be able to "find" each other. I think that simply because there must be a way for those two to duke it out. I dont see it happening at Shayol Ghul however. It will most likely occur before the last battle even takes place, or may set the tone for it. After all with the Naiblis(sp?) out of the way it is likely the remaining forsaken will start TG in an attempt to curry the favor of the DO. I mean if one of your generals won the last battle, wouldnt you give them a promotion? Just my 2 cents, I expect Luckers to smash it up into a relavant peice of info now. Proceed with my blessing Luckers! HA

[Luckers]

Umm... doody... :p

 

But yeah the only issue i have is tthat i think TG must start with the beginning of the book--beyond that, yes i have me beliefs about how that will play out but its pretty... fluidic.

[anamul]

Is it me or:

Tarmon Gaidon == Terry Goodkind.  ;D  ;D

 

I was just thinking about how the very name Terry Goodkind, make some people very cross here. And it came to me.....behold...."thy very name suggest destruction in my epic".

 

Sorry, I know it is the wrong forum. But I am born lazy.

[billoumm7]

balefire... thats the answer! yes, balefire is a combination of all the elements of the power, only when used one draws such an ammount of the power that it is impossible to stop.

 

the only thing is that mordin was channeling the true power, not the one power. if he was channeling Sadin, they could have reflected one another or something like that. mordin is Ishmael, so he has more than enough strength to wield the true power and remain sane, although spareing rand's life is somewhat confusing on why he did that... idk but he may be have been helping Samuel escape.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Something I thought was that when Rand sees Moridin when Rand isn't channeling, then Moridin would be channeling the True Power. I would have thought Moridin stopped using Saidin way before the link, and seeing as Moridin was using the True Power when the link was formed it seems sensible to think he would be inclined to use Saidin more instead, although I may be wrong

[Luckers]

Moridin, and Ishamael before him, used saidin and the True Power to relatively equal degrees, with maybe just a hint of preference to saidin from what we've witnessed.

 

Since he has quit using saidin following the formation of the link--with that one exception that im guessing probably was some degree of experiment for him to learn more about the link--we do know that it is saidin that causes the link to become active--for him as for Rand.

 

Why this is, I'm not sure. Logically it would have seemed more likely that it was the True Power that caused the link on his behalf--yet it is not. We know this. Perhaps it has something to do with like calling to like. It's a fairly consistent theme through the books, and thats the best explanation i can think of.

[Guest Dreadlord]

that isnt accurate, we know from his PoV that he uses the True Power almost exculsively. He said the "price was worth it."

[nashdude]

Logically it would have seemed more likely that it was the True Power that caused the link on his behalf--yet it is not. We know this. Perhaps it has something to do with like calling to like.

 

You know, I think this may have something to do with it. Unless I miss my guess, Moridin was channelling the TP when the link was established, wasn't he? That would kinda make sense then...

 

--Rand using OP, Moridin using TP

--two streams of balefire (a weave that alters the Pattern itself)

--Rand is the DR, Moridin is Nae'blis

 

Everything suggests that they are counterparts one of another---mirror images, if you will. So when their balefire streams crossed, they cancelled each other out, each one destroying the other before it is woven. As an analogy, imagine a rope with someone holding each end. Grab the middle of the rope and yank. What happens? The two guys holding the rope are drawn together, crashing into each other, if the rope is short enough and pulled with enough force.

 

This is kinda what I think happened with Rand and Moridin. The balefire streams destroyed one another before they were woven, and effectively yanked Rand and Moridin together via the OP (or OP/TP---either way, it works). For a split second, their essence intermingled, so that now, when either one of them seizes the Power, they go all fruit loops.

[Luckers]

that isnt accurate, we know from his PoV that he uses the True Power almost exculsively. He said the "price was worth it."

 

What? Champ, he does use the True Power exclusively now. It's more then clearly stated by the Forsaken--who think him mad for it--and if that weren't enough Rand's experiences with the link show it too.

 

Where is your contention? Pre-link he used a mix of saidin and the True Power, post-link its just the True Power. What precisely do you feel wasn't accurate?

 

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

Read the post you quoted properly Luckers, you just said what I said.

 

QUOTE

Moridin, and Ishamael before him, used saidin and the True Power to relatively equal degrees, with maybe just a hint of preference to saidin from what we've witnessed

UNQUOTE

 

THAT post, by you Luckers, was what I was replying to. You said that Moridin showed "a hint of preference" for Saidin over the True Power, when in reality he stopped using Saidin altogether

[Luckers]

Buddy, you seem a bit confused. Let me clarify.

 

My comment was a response to your comment regarding the fact that 'I would have thought Moridin stopped using Saidin way before the link, and seeing as Moridin was using the True Power when the link was formed it seems sensible to think he would be inclined to use Saidin more instead'. It came directly after your post to that effect so i thought it needed no direct quote--clearly i was incorrect.

 

In any case, i replied, firstly to your first comment--that you would have thought Moridin would have stopped using saidin way before the link--that Moridin and Ishamael before him used saidin--indeed from the witnessed scenes seemed to use saidin more heavily than the True Power.

 

From there i went on to elucidate that you were also wrong in your assumption that 'seeing as Moridin was using the True Power when the link was formed it seems sensible to think he would be inclined to use Saidin more instead'.

 

Since we clearly know that he instead decreased the use of Saidin and increased the use of the True Power its clear that like Rand it is Saidin that the instagating factor in the link. Like you i found this strange--i too would have thought it to be more logical that it was the True Power for him, not saidin, so don't think me to be aggressive in stating that it was wrong, because by all logic i agree with you.

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

Im sure, though, that before the link we get POVs from Moridin and he thought to himself even then that he used the True Power exclusively as the price was "worth it" (I think that was when he was watching two other Chosen deal with the Shaido, people refered to Moridin in this PoV as teh Watcher before we figured out it was him). As far as I can see, Ishamael/Moridin hardly ever used Saidin at all during the main series, even before the link. This is back up in the prologue of EotW, where Elan Morin aka Ishamael/Moridin tells Lews Therin that he "follows a different power now." That was 3000 years ago.

 

Ishamael was known for using the True Power exclusively, right? So how could the other Chosen note him for that, if he only started using the True Power exclusively AFTER becoming Moridin and THEN forming the link? Ishamael had always used the True Power exclusively (if there are any exceptions to this, there are only a handful) and that extends back 3000 years, otherwise Elan Morin wouldnt have said he followed a different power.

 

Another thing that bothers me is this; when Rand and Moridin crossed balefire obviously Moridin used the True Power. If the balefires cancelled each other out surely that means that Rand must have used much more of Saidin than Moridin used of the True Power, seeing as the True Power is said to be much more powerful. Yet I dont remember Rands stream of balefire being any thicker than Moridins, and we have seen many times that the bar of balefire gets bigger when you use more Saidin/Saidar. Only a minor detail, but it is there.

[Majsju]

Ishamael was known for using the True Power exclusively, right? So how could the other Chosen note him for that, if he only started using the True Power exclusively AFTER becoming Moridin and THEN forming the link? Ishamael had always used the True Power exclusively (if there are any exceptions to this, there are only a

 

One great example of these "exceptions" is in TDR, when Rand fights Ishy in the Stone. We get it definitly confirmed that Ishy is using Saidin in the beginning of the fight, and only attempts to draw TP when he is about to die.

Of course, that could be the DO refusing Ishy access to TP after having screwed up twice against Rand already.

 

Another thing that bothers me is this; when Rand and Moridin crossed balefire obviously Moridin used the True Power. If the balefires cancelled each other out surely that means that Rand must have used much more of Saidin than Moridin used of the True Power, seeing as the True Power is said to be much more powerful. Yet I dont remember Rands stream of balefire being any thicker than Moridins, and we have seen many times that the bar of balefire gets bigger when you use more Saidin/Saidar. Only a minor detail, but it is there.

 

Nowhere does it say that TP is more powerful than OP. It is impossible to detect, and some things can be done with it that can not be done with OP, but that is not the same as being more powerful.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The powerful part that I think you're referring to, Dreadlord, comes from a Demandred POV.

 

He's thinking that TP is an even more powerful drug than saidin.

 

We get no indication at all that TP is in anyway a more powerful force than OP.

[Guest Dreadlord]

If the True Power isn't stronger why would they use it? If it isn't any stronger then that means the only benefit would be not being able to be sensed by another channeller. Considering you can invert weaves and hide the ability to channel, the only difference about the True Power really is the saa, which makes you lose your eyes (check out Ishamaels dead body in tDR) and the major addiction. So why would anyone in their right or wrong mind use the True Power then??? The True Power is definitely stronger. Demandred refers to it being more addictive, yes, but Im positive he also says it is stronger

[Bob T Dwarf]

I think if you delve into it, Mieren's belief when she drilled the Bore was that using TP would make a person more individually powerful.  And, as we see from LTT and her own actions, she is all about her own individual power.

 

Remember, at the time, it was only possible to accomplish some things with linked circles.  In the normal course of things, for most circles that meant ceding control to a man.  Mieren thought she foresaw TP making Circles redundant. 

 

Using a Power that had no difference whatever for male or female, if there was a need for linking at all, control would likely have accrued to the most powerful in the link.  She was confident that would always be her.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Sorry Bob but I dont see the relevance

[Bob T Dwarf]

With OP there would always be a need for Circles.  With circles there would most often be need for a man to be in control

 

With TP, either no circles, or no need for her to pass control to anybody.

 

With OP, she would always( or at least often enough to really cheese her off ) be in a subservient role.  With TP, she would never need to be subservient again.