Prophecy at the front of CoT

[trakand_01]

At the beginning of each book as we know, there is a prophecy. At the front of CoT, the prophecy seems to relate to the DO.

 

And it shall come to pass, in the days when the Dark Hunt rides,

when the right hand falters and the left hand strays,

that mankind shall come to the Crossroads of Twilight,

and all that is, all that was,

and all that will be shall be shall balance on the point of a sword,

while the winds of the Shadow grow.

 

 

It seems to refer to the DO, and says that when "the right hand falters and the left hand strays" or vice versa, that shadow will grow.

 

I couldnt quite remember but don't Aran'gar and Osan'gar mean 'left hand' and 'right hand'?

 

We know Dashiva... Aran'gar? Is dead now, but Rand doesnt know that, Cadsuane thinks at the end of book 9 that they killed a 'renegade asha'man', but the only one that could be would be Aran'gar / Dashiva, we know the hilltop he was on was completely desolated.

 

But the other hand wanders... does Halima wander from the Dark? The Dark Hunt is obviously Dark Hounds, and i seem to vaguely remember Perrin coming across some on his search for Faile.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Dashiva is Osan'gar, Halima is Aran'gar. Does it definitely refer to them, though? I know they are named after the daggers, left and right, so it would seem so, but in the prophecy it says one falters and one strays. I would personally have thought taht meant Mat and Perrin-Perrin strays away from Rand does he not? Saying that, Mat doesnt falter at all. But again having said that I would have thought Osan'gar falters but Halima doesnt really stray does she?

[trakand_01]

Then perhaps it is the other way around - perhaps Perrin falters; after all he's pretty much giving up what he was sent to do, in order to find Faile, or maybe with Faile taken, Perrin could be considered to be 'faltering'? Mat's dalliances with the Seanchan (indeed he marries the daughter of the empress!) could possibly be considered as him 'straying'?

 

I would suggest Rand losing one of his hands to Semi but I understand that is at the end of book 11.

[Guest durram laddel cham]

i think that part refers to Perrin and Mat. Perrin will probably faltering, though it isn't , IMO, a great discription. with Matt as the left hand straying. funny though Perrin is his right hand and not Mat as the great general.

[trakand_01]

I think it's quite apt, and useful.

 

What better tactics than to have your out-front 'right hand' (Perrin) be openly working on your behalf (as Perrin has now revealed to Masema), yet your real gem, your real best asset (Mat) is the left hand, working for you but not, on your side but going about his own business, but (IMO) ultimately more trustworthy and reliable than your supposed right-hand man.

 

Great shocks for the Shadow when Mat, married to the daughter of the Seanchan Empress, is revealed as Rand's greatest General.

[42Bonzo88]

    Going with Trakand's answer, when Mat discovers that he is Rand's Greatest General.

[airminxx]

Couldn't Mat be the right hand which falters when he  *(perhaps)* has to give up his battle memories to save Moiraine from the tower of Ghenji?  Will Rand lose his great general?  And Perrin could definitely be seen as the strayed in his chase to rescue Faile.

[BrainFireBob]

Mat strays- he's dallying with Tuon, but still on his prophesied path, he's just taking his sweet time about it.

 

Perrin lets everything go to hell while searching for Faile, even rejecting the colors linking the ta'veren. He even admits he's lost "the Way"- "it can all burn, if it keeps her safe!"

 

Perrin's the right, Mat the left. Interesting connotations with the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing. Interesting symbolism with Rand's loss of his *right* hand.

[cloglord]

I've had this thought before, and I have always thought that it was a reference to Osangar and Arangar.  It fits better for me, because the prophecy seems to be refering to things of the dark.  I've always been somewhat disapointed in this bit of prophetic offering, because it seems pretty generic, and doesn't give us any clues.

[bRANDan]

I've also thought it referred to Osan'gar and Aran'gar. Seeing as how in the last book Osan'gar dies and Aran'gar/Halima falters. Aran'gar fails to make Egwene do as she wants and I think at the meeting of the Chosen that very fact is brought up. Yes I think Aran'gar is and will certainly stray. Maybe not stray from the Shadow, but stray from the DO's or Nae'blis's objectives. I think her conspiring with Greandal is part of the "straying".

[Luckers]

Aran'gar and Osen'gar are not left and right hands... they are the names of a type of knife. Furthermore it doesn't sit with their actions. Osen'gar was already dead when that prophecy was spoken--how could dying in any way be refered to as straying, or faltering?--and in CoT Aran'gar is actually firmly in control of Egwene, and the only comments about it is when she mimics squashing something with her thumb. Again, how is that faltering?

 

And their actions in the book in no way bring mankind to a crossroads--nothing they do specifically alters the flow of events on a wide-scale... Especially not Osen'gar, who was dead and gone.

 

Meanwhile in this book we have Perrin faltering--stoping everything, given up his task as set by Rand (which was at the point of completion in bringing Masema to Rand), in order to save Faile. And Mat was straying. His actions in that book had completely slipped off course involving his saving of the damane and the capturing of Tuon.

 

And both actions have altered events in surprising ways, bringing mankind to a new state, a new position--a crossroads. Perrin annialates the Shaido, forms bonds with the Seanchan, gains a hundred thousand disenfranchised individuals, and places himself in a perfect position to encounter the borderlanders. Mat ends up married to the Daughter of the Nine Moons, Frees hundreds of damane, discovers explosives and through his actions with Tuon both saves her life and reveals Suroth setting her up in charge of the Seanchan.

 

Perrin faltered, Mat strayed and the through that a surprising number of issues resolved themselves setting the Light into a position that, for the first time in the series, they could come to ally. It was through their meanderings that things gained a clarity amongst the nations that had been missing since Lord of Chaos.

[bRANDan]

Aran'gar and Osen'gar are not left and right hands... they are the names of a type of knife.

 

They are the left and right-hand knives in a form of duel, in which I believe both duelists often died.

 

Osen'gar was already dead when that prophecy was spoken

 

Not true, the prophecy was a part of the Karaethon cycle, spoken long before Osan'gar died. It was put into the books just after he died, but that doesn't mean it doesn't refer to him.

 

how could dying in any way be refered to as straying, or faltering?--

 

Since I do not know which osan means, left or right, I'll explore both faltering and straying. He strayed from his task, to keep an eye on Rand, and tried to kill Rand, and might I add that Mazrim Taim was quite surprised when Rand mentions Dashiva tried to kill him. As for faltering, falter means -To operate or perform unsteadily or with a loss of effectiveness(dictionary)- I'd say that that covers Dashiva's rebelious act of attacking Rand in Cairhein against orders.

 

and in CoT Aran'gar is actually firmly in control of Egwene

 

I wouldn't say that, Egwene gets massaged by Halima to relieve the "headaches" but what control does Aran'gar have over her? Actually I would think that the one hand faltering would be Aran'gar. Her tactics definately showed a loss of effectiveness, Egwene still did whatever she wanted too. At the End of CoT Egwene demonstrates this freedom, Mesaana is quite displeased if I remember correctly, and at the meeting of the Chosen voices this displeasure to Aran'gar who replies with something like "I've told you, she's not the puppet you think she is".

 

And their actions in the book in no way bring mankind to a crossroads

 

True, but the Prophecy says nothing of the the right or left-hand causing any of the events that lead to this crossroads. It merely states that WHEN the two hands to stray and falter "mankind shall come to the Crossroads of Twilight,".

 

I see what you mean, but am not convinced. As cloglord said, the prophecy seems to refer to things of the Shadow. And their names literally mean "left-hand knife" and "right-hand knife". Plus I don't think RJ would add the whole bit about the knife duel if it was not important. It makes sense too, the duelists both usually die in the duel, and I see Aran'gar dying in the final book, Osan'gar is already dead. Right from the start when we first met them and it explained their names I thought that the DO was using them as expendable weapons. They had tasks to do, and whether or not the tasks were accomplished the two "knife hands" would perish.

[Luckers]

And I don't think RJ would enter a prophecy refering to a man that was already dead. But more later, i have to run.

[Luckers]

Quote

Aran'gar and Osen'gar are not left and right hands... they are the names of a type of knife.

 

They are the left and right-hand knives in a form of duel, in which I believe both duelists often died.

 

Yes... but again, thats not left and right hands, its the name of knives. We don't even know if the names translate in any way to mean left or right hand...  In many dueling styles the duelists bear different knives in each speciffic hand.

 

Not true, the prophecy was a part of the Karaethon cycle, spoken long before Osan'gar died. It was put into the books just after he died, but that doesn't mean it doesn't refer to him.

 

To my mind it really does. The prose is present tense, the implications in naming the book after it seem directly to infer the presense of its message... and it directly fits what Perrin and Mat are going through in this book.

 

Since I do not know which osan means, left or right, I'll explore both faltering and straying. He strayed from his task, to keep an eye on Rand, and tried to kill Rand, and might I add that Mazrim Taim was quite surprised when Rand mentions Dashiva tried to kill him. As for faltering, falter means -To operate or perform unsteadily or with a loss of effectiveness(dictionary)- I'd say that that covers Dashiva's rebelious act of attacking Rand in Cairhein against orders.

 

But that is such a strech. He did not stray from his task, he was evicted by in an epic battle--it wasn't like he found something better to do. And its not a faltering on his part either. He reacted to Rand uncovering him pretty damn fast as i recall.

 

And something that occured two books prior to the book its cited in, and named for...

 

I wouldn't say that, Egwene gets massaged by Halima to relieve the "headaches" but what control does Aran'gar have over her? Actually I would think that the one hand faltering would be Aran'gar. Her tactics definately showed a loss of effectiveness, Egwene still did whatever she wanted too. At the End of CoT Egwene demonstrates this freedom, Mesaana is quite displeased if I remember correctly, and at the meeting of the Chosen voices this displeasure to Aran'gar who replies with something like "I've told you, she's not the puppet you think she is".

 

My comment about her being in control was a direct response to Bob suggesting that she was being accused of not doing her best. She wasn't--in CoT she was accounted by the Forsaken to be in complete control.

 

Beyond that though in response to your comments... thats not faltering. She didn't fail in her task due to some emotional confliction or distraction. She did what she did and it didn't work to the best. And that was in KoD.

 

And wasn't it Nisao that said that?

 

True, but the Prophecy says nothing of the the right or left-hand causing any of the events that lead to this crossroads. It merely states that WHEN the two hands to stray and falter "mankind shall come to the Crossroads of Twilight,".

 

Yet that has a certain time based implication--both in that when they falter the crossroads is reached and that this correlates with the Darkhounds. Mat and Perrin were straying and faltering at the same time in events the directly resulted in mankind being at an unprecedented state of convergence. Nothing occruing within or around Aran'gar and Osen'gar's lives correlated, and nothing resulted around periods of convergence.

 

 

I see what you mean, but am not convinced. As cloglord said, the prophecy seems to refer to things of the Shadow. And their names literally mean "left-hand knife" and "right-hand knife". Plus I don't think RJ would add the whole bit about the knife duel if it was not important. It makes sense too, the duelists both usually die in the duel, and I see Aran'gar dying in the final book, Osan'gar is already dead. Right from the start when we first met them and it explained their names I thought that the DO was using them as expendable weapons. They had tasks to do, and whether or not the tasks were accomplished the two "knife hands" would perish.

 

Firstly, again, their names do not literally mean "left-hand knife" and "right-hand knife". They are the names of knives wielded in the right and left hands in a type of dueling. The knife duel is important to the character development of the two, and the basis of their recycling--beyond that is a stretch. And yes, all the rest of what you say has resonance... but none of it relates to this prophecy.

 

The prophecy fits mat and perrin, it does not, to my mind, fit Aran'gar and Osen'gar.

[bRANDan]

He did not stray from his task, he was evicted by in an epic battle--it wasn't like he found something better to do. And its not a faltering on his part either. He reacted to Rand uncovering him pretty damn fast as i recall.

 

His task was to watch Rand, not try to kill him. By attacking the Sun Palace he definately strayed from his orders.

 

Beyond that though in response to your comments... thats not faltering. She didn't fail in her task due to some emotional confliction or distraction. She did what she did and it didn't work to the best. And that was in KoD.

 

That is precisely faltering, "to perform with a loss of effectiveness" is the definition of falter given in the dictionary. She didn't fail but her methods were definitely inneffective by the end. And it occured the end of CoT.

 

And wasn't it Nisao that said that?

 

She said something similar too, I don't have my books with me and I can only find the first 9 books plus tSoSG and NS online, but it is during the meeting of the Chosen where Aran'gar and Graendal pair up, I think anyways.

 

Yet that has a certain time based implication--both in that when they falter the crossroads is reached and that this correlates with the Darkhounds

 

Perrin smells the Darkhounds in the Wolf Dream right at the beginning of CoT so we can assume that they were sent out at least at the beginning of the book if not earlier. Osan'gar had strayed trying to kill Rand in PoD, Aran'gar falters(began to be innefective) in her task to ensure Egwene did nothing all throughout WH. To me that fits the time based implication quite well.

 

I respect your opinion Luckers, you can always back up what you say whether through direct evidence or indirect, but this time I have to disagree with you. You may very well be right, but then again so may I. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Re. Halima/Aran'gar

 

It's pretty well accepted that she was using some form of Compulsion on Egwene.  Probably to get her to reveal her "Dreams" and then forget having had them.  Thus Egwene's headaches which gave Halima an excuse for the massages and the massages being a cover for reinforcing the Compulsion.

 

So, yes, Aran'gar did believe he/she had Egwene under her thumb.

 

Strangely, I'm with Luckers on this one.  His explanation is the most logically consistent to me.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

i don't really remember the whole osan'gar/aran'gar 'resurrection' scene...but they did mention those were the names of the blades in a form of duel, one always held in the right hand and the other always in the left.  right?

 

if you're holding blades in each of your hands, then don't the blades essentially BECOME your hands?  in that case, there is absolutely no problem with the symbolism.  we don't exactly expect the prophecies to be completely literal do we?

[bRANDan]

I'be found that quote I was looking for about Aran'gar at the Meeting of the Chosen where she is allying with Graendal. Mesaana, Semi, and Demandred walk over and Mesaana says:

Why did you let her go Aran'gar? You were supposed to be controlling her! Were you so busy playing your little dream-games with her that you forgot to learn what she was thinking? The rebellion will fall apart without her as a figurehead. All my careful planning ruined because you couldn't keep a grasp on one ignorant girl!

Aran'gar replies:

I listened in on a sitting of the rebels' Hall last night. In the World of Dreams, so they could meet in the White Tower, with Egwene leading it. She's not the figurehead you believe, I've tried telling you that before, but you never listened.

That's in KoD Chapter 3.

 

Before that quote, in Aran'gars POV, she thinks to herself how only she is suited to rule in this age. Then implicates that she has a plan. One that Graendal would not like, and would apparently kill Graendal when her usefulness was up.

 

The whole of Aran'gars POV convinces me that she is faltering, has faltered, and will continue to falter. She still is trying to push her own agenda, when they have been told that they must serve the DO, not themselves.

 

Aran'gar is the right-hand dagger, she certainly falters. Falters in her task control Egwene.

Osan'gar is the left-hand dagger, he certainly strays. Strays from his task to watch Rand.

 

[xander]

I'd like to offer an alternate theory here:

 

And it shall come to pass, in the days when the Dark Hunt rides,

when the right hand falters and the left hand strays,

that mankind shall come to the Crossroads of Twilight,

and all that is, all that was,

and all that will be shall be shall balance on the point of a sword,

while the winds of the Shadow grow.

 

I think the first line "And it shall come to pass, in the days when the Dark Hunt rides" is speaking to the forces of shadow moving into lands other than the blight.  Its saying, Beware folks, it's on.

 

I think "right hand falters" is speaking of the White Tower divided, as well as the divided loyalties of the Black Tower.  The Aes Sedai as a force against the shadow are completely neutralized.  They can't do anything, for good or ill, until this rift is healed.  They are at present a non-force.  Ewgene is making a move that will put a strangle hold on Tar Valon, which would force a face to face with the sisters in the Tower and most likely end hostilities without bloodshed.  A peaceful and diplomatic solution instead of open conflict.  She fails and is captured and so Rand loses a strong ally and a quick and peaceful solution could be toast.  With the final battle looming the force that always considered it's self the light's best weapon is in no condition for the fight.

 

I believe "the left hand strays" is speaking of both Perrin and Mat; who are Rands most trusted and both of whom have completely diverged from their assigned tasks.  They must return to their respective missions, and soon.

 

I think the line saying "that mankind shall come to the Crossroads of Twilight," is saying that from this point the light has a shot but if things aren't done it will be all shadow.  The "Light" has been reduced by shadow.  Only a flicker of The Light remains in the form of twilight.  The Shadow is close to victory and the simplest of choices can have far reaching and drastic consequences.  It all depends on the actions of the Dragon and his minions.  It can go either way.

 

The part about "and all that is, all that was, and all that will be shall be shall balance on the point of a sword" is speaking to the cleansing sadin.

Much depends on this move.  Remember, even the DO was convinced that if the source was cleansed he would have to kill the male chosen because they wouldn't need his protection anymore.  Add to that if the source isn't cleansed, Rand will most likely become as looney as LTT himself.  The DO wins that the Wheel is shattered and remade in his image.  The past, present, and future are literally gone.

 

And finally "while the winds of the Shadow grow" a warning that the Shadow is growing stronger and the battle is near.

 

I think the Aes Sedai are one of Rands most powerful weapons, but as long as they are fighting with each other they cannot fight the last battle or even prepare for it.  As I said earlier they are a non-force until they are unified and under Rand as a whole.  

Mat and Perrin doing their own thing and putting themselves and their forces in danger puts the chances for success at the last battle in jeopardy.  If one falls the tri-pod falls.  We have seen this many times in the story.  

 

I think this prophecy is an overview of the goings on around this time in the macro and the possibilities created by the choices of all the players involved.  That is exactly what a Crossroads depicts, IMHO anyway.  From here we can go this way, or that.

 

What do you think?

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

I think it's an interesting theory.

 

My gut feeling is that it stretches things a bit too far.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

not bad, no logical errors as far as i can see.  one thing that people have to consider is that part of this book occurs THE SAME TIME as the cleansing.  the cleansing has NOT happened yet.

[bRANDan]

one thing that people have to consider is that part of this book occurs THE SAME TIME as the cleansing.  the cleansing has NOT happened yet.

 

Thanks for pointing that out. That also means that for the first part of this book Osan'gar is, technically, not dead yet.

 

Generic Aelfinn #2, got anything else that might help me with my theory? Lol, ;D.

[Luckers]

His task was to watch Rand, not try to kill him. By attacking the Sun Palace he definately strayed from his orders.

 

He didn't attack the Sun Palace thought. That was Rochaid and the others--he happened on them by chance, and then Rand came upon them all cloistered together and assumed the worst. But he never strayed from his orders, he was doing exactly as he was supposed to until he was forced out by discovery.

 

That is precisely faltering, "to perform with a loss of effectiveness" is the definition of falter given in the dictionary. She didn't fail but her methods were definitely inneffective by the end. And it occured the end of CoT.

 

No, it isn't faltering. To falter you have to have set level of effectiveness which declines in the result of a personal action, experience or intention. You can cite the dictionary all you want, the word falter requires a marked decline resulting from you personally. Nothing in what occured with Aran'gar sees a marked decline in her methods as a result of her actions, emotions or methods. What you described it failure, not faltering. She did what she did, and it didn't work--not because of some fault of her own, but because of a strength in others.

 

For instance Perrin--he falters. In his love for Faile and his fear, he ignores his initial task completely. That is faltering... failing through a personal change, an emotion, a distraction.

 

I respect your opinion Luckers, you can always back up what you say whether through direct evidence or indirect, but this time I have to disagree with you. You may very well be right, but then again so may I. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

Fair enough. :)

 

 

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Nah, read it again.

And it shall come to pass, in the days when the Dark Hunt rides,

when the right hand falters and the left hand strays,

that mankind shall come to the Crossroads of Twilight,

and all that is, all that was,

and all that will be shall be shall balance on the point of a sword,

while the winds of the Shadow grow.

 

The first line merely defines a timeframe.  The last line defines the danger that results.

 

The body refers to Mat and Perrin.  I won't get into which is the right hand and which the left, or how their actions might be seen as faltering or straying.  I'll just say that they both get off-track.  As a result, the Shadow gains strength.

 

 

 

[Luckers]

I actually think their actions have brought a new strength to the Light. Perrin's straying leads to the destruction of the Shaido and bonds formed with the Seanchan--not to mention 200 Wise Ones who will now be forced to fight in the Last Battle. And Mat's faltering leaves him with firearms, married to Tuon, and with Suroth captured.

 

The Winds of the Shadow may have grown, but Crossroads can go either way.