What would happen if..........

[rd2000]

Someone was eaten/killed by Mashadar and seconds later, a channeller as powerful as Rand balefired that Mashadar?

 

Some of you might have guessed where this is leading......

 

Sammael is alive.

[trakand_01]

Nice theory, and if it weren't for one fact I would like to ponder on it more, but that one fact is that RJ himself explicitly stated that 'Sammael is Toast'.

[Guest durram laddel cham]

jep we won't be seeing him again.

[Luckers]

Also, Sammael was consumed by Mashadar after Rand balefired it. Indeed, it was the balefire that altered where Mashadar was, and led to it consuming Sammael.

[trakand_01]

Wasnt Rand actually aiming at Liah, to try and save her from Mashadar's evil death?

[Luckers]

Yes, but he hit Mashadar too, and altered its position. It was that alteration that led to it consuming Sammael.

[rd2000]

Yes, but he hit Mashadar too, and altered its position. It was that alteration that led to it consuming Sammael.

 

The way it went down to me seemed like Rand balefired Mashadar after Sammael was consumed. In the passage, Rand was about to bf Sammy when he was distracted by Liah. At the same time a wave of Mashadar was falling on Sammael. By the time Rand swept his balefire on Sammael, the wave of Mashadar would have fallen on Sammael.

Mashadar would not be "re-positioned" by balefire. Whatever balefire strikes, it destroys. The mass of Mashadar that Rand's balefire struck did not alter it's location, it destroyed it.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

i don't quite remember the details of that scene...but the point is that because liah was balefired out, mashadar would have never 'reached' for her, instead, it would have reached faster for sammael, giving the effect of an altereed position.

[rd2000]

i don't quite remember the details of that scene...but the point is that because liah was balefired out, mashadar would have never 'reached' for her, instead, it would have reached faster for sammael, giving the effect of an altereed position.

 

Balefire doesn't work that way. If I reach for you, and someone balefires you after I touch you, that doesn't change MY memory or perception of having reached for you.

 

If my memory of the scene is correct, Rand notices that Mashadar is indeed rather far away from where he saw it near Sammael before he released balefire. I assume that this is what made Luckers believe that Mashadar's position was altered. I believe that Rand simply destroyed a large chunk of Mashadar and the rest of it moved away from what hurt it.

[bRANDan]

When Mashadar is balefired it seems to only destroy the part that was hit with the balefire. Like if you balefired a stone wall it would destroy the stone that touched the balefire, not destroy the whole wall. I think this explains why Sammael did not come back after Rand balefired Mashadar. I think to remove one's actions with balefire you must destroy the person/creature that did/caused those actions, if you balefire a person, the whole person is removed from the pattern and therefore undoes their previous actions, whereas with Mashadar only a swath was removed from the pattern but Mashadar itself was not removed. I think that might be the key difference in this situation.

 

I myself think (and know thanks to RJ) that Sammael is dead. I think that RJ used Sammael's death as a way to show us, the reader, that even the forsaken are not above dying from carelessness or overconfidence. A stone from one of the buildings falling on his head would have done the same I think, or a floor in a building collapsing and him falling to his death, though RJ would never have used either of those as they would have seemed much to mundane for the ending of a book. Rand: "Oh, a brick must have hit him in the head and killed him. Hmmm. Well, my job here is done" [does a little dance then Travels to Illian, where he proceeds to do another little dance]

[aevogt]

Luckers is actually back up by another incident.

 

When Moghedien BF's Nynaeve's boat in Ebou Dar, it is in front of Lan's and since it starts sinking before she BF's it, it is then behind Lan's boat, and almost completely sunk.  The Balefire effect changed it's position.  Only those who saw it remembered it as being in front because that forward progress had no longer happened.

 

Which means that when Rand saw Mashadar about to consume Sammael, it alrady had.

 

Stupid Balefire effect.

[Luckers]

Balefire doesn't work that way. If I reach for you, and someone balefires you after I touch you, that doesn't change MY memory or perception of having reached for you.

 

aevogt already got there, but it does work that way. Your memory remains the same, but the action is removed. Like the darkhounds chewing through the door, Mat remembers it, but it no longer happened. That is what occured here. Rand balefired Liah, and altered who the balefire reached for. Instead it reached for Sammael, and got him--and all of this occured in the past.