First meeting between Rand & Siuan. TGH.

[Bazzles]

So I was just reading the scene where Rand first meets Siuan. Moiraine and Verin are also in the room, Lan has not been allowed to enter, he gave Rand a little coaching beforehand. Anyway, I was just wondering if they did something to him with the power.

 

First of all, we know now(thanks to later books) that Verin is capable of compulsion to a certain degree, and that the stronger the individual the harder it is for her to compell them.

 

Secondly, we see somewhere earlier in the book Moiraine saying that he WILL proclaim himself the Dragon if she has to force him to, or something of the sort(apologies, I'm too lazy to go back and find that part now... but I will if too many people question it).

 

Thirdly, during the meeting when Rand is told he is the Dragon Reborn he falls to his knees, the void shatters etc. etc.

 

Finally, after the meeting we get a glimps of the three women talking, this is how it goes:

 

The silence stretched on in the room after Rand left until it was broken by a long breath from the Amyrlin. "I cannot make myself like what we just did," she said. "It was necessary, but... Did it work, Daughters?"

  Moiraine shook her head, just the slightest movement. "I do not know. But it was necessary, and is."

  "Necessary," Verin agreed. She touched her forehead, then peered at the dampness on her fingers. "He is strong. And as stubbron as you said, Moiraine. Much stronger than I expected. We may have to gentle him after all before..." Her eyes widened "But we cannot, can we?"....

 

It goes on a little longer but that's all that's relevant, and more, sorry for the huge quote. =)

 

Anyway it seems to me that Verin may have used compulsion in order to make Rand admit to himself that he is the Dragon Reborn. Of course, reading this post it seems even more over-analysed than it did in my head.

 

Anyhoo, opinions?

 

EDIT: Alright, I know I said compulsion specifically but I was really just referring to channeling in general, very poorly worded by me, I know. Did they do something to him?

[Guest durram laddel cham]

is it even possible to use compulsion on a male channeler? I thought I read some where it's impossible, but still wouldn't they use the compulsion to make hium less stubborn. as we see in the next books he is very stuuborn against Moiraine and they argue a lot.

I think what she means with "I didn't like it" that she let the new breaker of the world loose in the world and that is in Rands case necessary.

[Majsju]

You can not use Compulsion on a man who is holding Saidin.

 

But also, Verins little trick is not really Compulsion. It does not work the way suggested here, which should be quite obvious from what we see in the scene where she does use her trick.

[Bazzles]

Well, I haven't read the books in a loooong time to be honest, which is why I'm on a re-read now. I  just thought it was  suspicious that she mentioned how strong he was and went on to say they may have to gentle him.

[Luckers]

We know the Blue have a fear weave, so its possible there is an instability weave of some form.

 

But honestly i think what we saw was just plain old fashioned shock. What Siuan was talking about was that she hadn't liked having to force him so far off balance.

[Duneflayer]

i don't think so i think they channeled i think thats inplied when Verin says "He's stronger than i thought." cause remember woman can't sense mens strength in the power

[42Bonzo88]

    Could it mean that he was more strongly T'averen than anything Siuan has ever witnessed? That is her talent. Or maybe his stubborness. This might be a little off the thread but even though he was coached by Lan, when Rand assumed the void, Siuan asked Moiraine if it was something Lan taught him and Moiraine said that he knew that earlier from his father.

Very good question.

[Luckers]

His strength in the power would not have had anything to do with it. If he was channeling they would not have been able to compel him or influence his emotions, and he wasn't, they would have.

 

I believe that that comment, as Bonzo suggested, refers to his stubborness and his fortitude in resisting their attempts to control him.

 

 

[aussie_ashaman123]

They may have been trying to use Verins compulsion, it might be possible to use it in a male channeller (Moggi used in on 2 female channellers in Tanchico), hough i do not know if itll work when he is holding saidin. I think strength of will and stubbornness can break a compulsion, Nynaeve ended breaking the compulsion Moggi had over her, and moggis was a lot more powerful (unlike Verins, which only increases the chance that someone would do something anyway).

[Luckers]

Direct compulsion is very hard to resist. Over time the effects of it can be broken by people of unusually strong will, but when your under the direct web itself your pretty much under their control.

 

Men who can channel are immune to this WHILST channeling. I believe it has to do with the chaotic nature of saidin, or perhaps with the 'fight-for-life' mindset of men holding it. That being said a male channeler could be compelled if he is not holding saidin--so its lucky Alanna never again tried to control Rand except for that one incident when he was wrapped in saidin.

 

Also women don't enjoy the same protection. Likely again due to either the tranquility of saidar, or the submissive mindset of women holding it, but we have twice seen women compelled whilst holding saidar (first Nynaeve and Elayne by Moghedian, and then Moghedian and Cyndane by Graendal).

 

By the by Verin's compulsion would not have worked on Rand anyway. She requires her compellees to be weak and off balance, AND (especially) trusting in her. Rand might have been off balance but he was neither of the other two things.

[The Lost One]

Also, there is usually a comment about Rand feeling goosebumbps when a woman channels around him.  I don't think that was mentioned in that passage.  I think they were commenting on the comments they made to force him off balance as well as setting him loose on the world. 

 

 

[Bazzles]

Cheers for the input all, I was more than likely over-thinking the wording. =)

 

Also, there is usually a comment about Rand feeling goosebumbps when a woman channels around him

 

True, but I think that comes in in the later books, I'm pretty sure he doesn't shiver/rub his arms every time Moiraine channels in the first couple books. That's just me nitpicking though, since it seems I'm wrong anyways ;).

[nornagest]

Compulsion is forbidden in itself ... isn't it ?.... but it is known that Moraine at least knows something of it ( her channelling before she went to the tower 'persuaded' people to let them give her what she wanted ( typical Cairhienien))  although suian and verin may or may not know more.

But Suian must have ordered the other two to try to compell Rand and to first know that they had the skill and knowledge to do it .... and then order them to keep Quiet about it.

interesting especially as Alana then tries compel Rand IMMEDIATLEY after bonding him, and failing because "He is so strong".

My guess is that him being Taveren has twisted the pattern so he cannot be compelled.

[Dbob]

I thought that Moiraine's trick was eavesdropping.

[aevogt]

Correct.  Technically making Moraine a Wilder.

[Dbob]

Correct.  Technically making Moraine a Wilder.

 

I never thought of that. Doesn't that mean she was born with the spark as well.

 

Does anyone in the Tower ever say why people don't like wilders?

[Luckers]

Yes, Moiraine had the spark and began to channel before reaching Tar Valon. Siuan also had the spark, by the by.

 

Their stated explanation is that Wilders represent a loss to the Tower, and so they are bitter about it, but it doesn't hold mustard since they also reguard Wilders that approach the Tower with a degree of disdain.

 

Ultimately the Aes Sedai have issues with any channelers because they so set themselves up above the world based on their ability to channel, and that represents a confliction because others have that ability too. So they rationalize it all by reguarding Wilders as, at best, idiots and degenerates. It's illogical, but most prejudices are. Though that being said, part of it is left over from their smere campeign when the Tower was first created. They needed to remove any Aes Sedai that refused to join with them--they even stilled the entire ajah of a women who had in the beginning sat with them in support of creating the Tower, yet later disagreed, for 'claiming to be Aes Sedai', and a mythos developed around that.

 

It infects all of their thinking--look at how they simply concluded Kinswomen decide eventually that the Kin isn't equal to the Tower and so leave it and go off and stop channeling. Or at how they concluded they must be breeding the ability out of the race because there were less Aes Sedai without even investigating if it simply meant that women were less inclined to seek out the Tower these days.

 

Look at their attitude towards the Wise Ones, who are an organisation that have been gathering and training women who can channel since before the Tower existed.

[Dbob]

--they even stilled the entire ajah of a women who had in the beginning sat with them in support of creating the Tower, yet later disagreed, for 'claiming to be Aes Sedai', and a mythos developed around that.

 

Thanks for the explaination. I totally missed the above. What was the other Ajah? What did they do?

[Bazzles]

I always felt that the majority of AS feel bitter about Wilders because while most AS must be taught how to embrace the source Wilders do it by themselves, and seem to be on average more powerful than the AS, just my opinion though. ;)

[Luckers]

Thanks for the explaination. I totally missed the above. What was the other Ajah? What did they do?

 

At the time ajah (small a) was simply a name for a sisterhood of Aes Sedai. There were twelve major ajah and several lesser ajah originally involved in the talks for creating Tar Valon (though we don't know what sort of numbers were required to be a major or minor ajah). The leaders of two of the ajah, Lideine Rajan and Mailaine Harvole later turned against the decision, and Lideine's entire ajah was stilled, after which Mailaine knelt.

 

The formation of the Ajah known today only began after a woman named Elisane Tishar was named the first Amyrlin in 98AB. Seven of the more influential ajah heads--Mitsora Caal, Karella Fanway, Azille Narof, Saraline Amerano, Dumera Alman, Salindi Casolan and Kiam Lopiang--got themselves named her advisors, and likely that was what set the number at seven. The later inclusion of other influential ajah heads is likely what lead to having three Sitters per Ajah--im guessing it was originally a result of alliances with stronger ajah by weaker ajah.

 

The seven Ajah's themselves weren't finalized in concept till the second century AB, but yeah.

 

I always felt that the majority of AS feel bitter about Wilders because while most AS must be taught how to embrace the source Wilders do it by themselves, and seem to be on average more powerful than the AS, just my opinion though.

 

Yeah that probably has something to do with it too.

 

Personally i feel the Aes Sedai attitude in this area is borderline criminal. They won't bestir themselves to train girls, and actively discourage others from doing so (resulting in deaths) and then sit around and sneer at those that are forced to learn without training.