The Wheel, DO, TG, and the Bore.

[slayerA]

I don't understand why Rand would just fix or reseal the bore, as most people here seem to believe. The next turning of the wheel will only see the bore reopened, as per discussions with  Harad Fel (sp?). Given the all the turnings, all the DO has to sit back and bide his time, one of the turning will surely set him free. Sooner or later the age lace will weave out a Dragon that does not make it. Unless this is just a big endless loop that can never be broken and the Last Battle has been fought forever. If the wheel just keeps turning all these ages and the DO is ALWAYS resealed in the bore, then what motive does the DO have to break out if he keeps get the same thing over and over. What is the point of the Last Battle, Last being the key word here, if just happens over and over. Seems like an non logical circle to me.

 

I hope/believe that Rand must unseal the bore to destroy the DO once and forever and to keep him from coming back in a new turning of the wheel, Rand will have to break the wheel from circular time to linear time. If not then everything will just back where it started from again. If DO exist in a new/old turnings then he exist in all turnings.

 

I hope this make sense to someone other than me. 

 

[Majsju]

If the wheel just keeps turning all these ages and the DO is ALWAYS resealed in the bore, then what motive does the DO have to break out if he keeps get the same thing over and over. What is the point of the Last Battle

 

The DO only needs to win once. If he breaks completely free, he will have the power to break the Wheel, put an end to the cycle of Ages and shape the world the way he wants it. And since the DO is a god, timde probably does not mean the same thing to him.

 

 

[Paviel]

I hope/believe that must unseal the bore to destroy the DO once and forever and to keep him from coming back in a new turning of the wheel

 

The problem with this idea is that it is contradicted by the first paragraph of chapter 1 of every WoT novel:

 

"In one Age, called the Third Age by some, and Age yet to come, an Age long past..."

 

That said, I don't think that Rand is just going to reseal the Bore from the Second Age. Heck, he might even destroy the Dark One, since the Dark One isn't present in every Age as far as I know. But all he can do by destroying the Dark One is ensure that there is no Dark One in the Fourth Age. He can't stop the Dark One from coming back the next time the Second Age comes around.

[Majsju]

That said, I don't think that Rand is just going to reseal the Bore from the Second Age. Heck, he might even destroy the Dark One, since the Dark One isn't present in every Age as far as I know. But all he can do by destroying the Dark One is ensure that there is no Dark One in the Fourth Age. He can't stop the Dark One from coming back the next time the Second Age comes around.

 

Killing the DO would most likely destroy the Wheel, bringing a shift from cyclic to linear time. Problem with that is, Rand is just a human, the DO is a god. If the DO managed to break completely free, Rand would be toast.

 

As for what Rand must accomplish, he must undo the bore, so it is as if it never were. If he just seals it like LTT did, the seal will weaken after a few thousand years, and things will repeat themselves similar to the Third Age. We know that can not be the case, since when the AOL comes around next time, the DO moust be completely forgotten. No legends, no myths, no nothing.

[cloglord]

Killing the DO would most likely destroy the Wheel, bringing a shift from cyclic to linear time. Problem with that is, Rand is just a human, the DO is a god. If the DO managed to break completely free, Rand would be toast.

 

And yet rand is called on to act in the role of a God, or else how could he do such a perfect job of fixing the creation of a God?  Perfect repair/manipulation of the stuff of creation is the purview of, the Creator  so as near as I can tell Rand will have to wield this level of power in some manner under some circumstance.

[Majsju]

Thing is, we have no idea exacly what Rand is supposed to do, other than showing up at SG, and at some point bleed a bit. We have no idea if it is actually he who actively will fix the bore. It might just as well be the Wheel using him and his über-ta'veren (somehow working together with Mat and Perrin) as a conduit, and all Rand has to do is standing there surviving long enough. That is in my eyes a way more likely scenario than Rand dueling the DO.

[slayerA]

The next question would beg to ask what Rand's 'blood' for then?

 

"his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, washing away the Shadow, sacrifice for man's salvation."

 

Well I just stumble across this from the Karaethon Cycle on the WOT wiki.

 

"Yet one shall be born to face the Shadow, born once more as he was born before, and shall be born again, time without end."

 

Does this mean Last Battle is not really the Last Battle, but just an endless, hopeless loop, stuck forever to repeat. Sounds like to me Rand won't be the last Dragon. Does the age lace prevent the Dragon from being BF'ed or otherwise removed the wheel? Without the DO there is no need for a Dragon, but the Dragon is reborn 'time without end' so there will always be the DO. (I am making my brain hurt thinking about this)

 

The thing is if this just a repeating loop then here is no real conclusion to the story and that really bothers me.

[cloglord]

It might just as well be the Wheel using him and his über-ta'veren (somehow working together with Mat and Perrin) as a conduit, and all Rand has to do is standing there surviving long enough. That is in my eyes a way more likely scenario than Rand dueling the DO.

 

While I agree that Rand is unlikely to duel the DO, I still don't know that allowing the wheel to work through the 3 taveren is enough to "kill" the DO.  THe wheel/pattern/et al are creations of the creator, and as such are not as powerful as 'he' is.  If you assume, which I do not, that the DO is equal to the creator then the Rand is not a God, so he can't defeat the DOargument does not work, because the wheel is also not a God.  Now if you look at the DO as a lesser being to the creator, then it works, but as a correlary(sp?) so does the possibility of Rand being effective against the DO on his own...

 

The next question would beg to ask what Rand's 'blood' for then?

 

"his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, washing away the Shadow, sacrifice for man's salvation."

 

My favorite interpretation is

He will come from the west, beyond the Spine of the World, but be of our blood.

* "Blood of our blood mixed with the old blood, raised by an ancient blood not ours."

...Of the blood, but not raised by the blood...

* "He shall spill out the blood of those who call themselves Aiel as water on sand, and he shall break them as dried twigs, yet the remnant of a remnant shall he save, and they shall live."

 

The Aiel are the blood of the dragon, and I think that he's going to pour out their blood like water on the rocks of Shayol Ghul.

 

[Majsju]

While I agree that Rand is unlikely to duel the DO, I still don't know that allowing the wheel to work through the 3 taveren is enough to "kill" the DO.  THe wheel/pattern/et al are creations of the creator, and as such are not as powerful as 'he' is.  If you assume, which I do not, that the DO is equal to the creator then the Rand is not a God, so he can't defeat the DOargument does not work, because the wheel is also not a God.  Now if you look at the DO as a lesser being to the creator, then it works, but as a correlary(sp?) so does the possibility of Rand being effective against the DO on his own...

 

Killing the DO is your words, not mine.

[Guest cw]

The Aiel are the blood of the dragon, and I think that he's going to pour out their blood like water on the rocks of Shayol Ghul.

 

I would have to disagree that the passage is referring to the Aiel.  The Aiel are the "Poeple of the Dragon" not the "Blood of the Dragon".

 

We know that Rand correlates to the Fisher King.  As such his body is tied to the land.  I'd have to say the passage is refering literally to Rand's blood, and that his connection to the land is the key.

 

slayerA.  Balefire does not destroy your soul.  Someone who was balefired can be reborn again.  Balefire removes your actions from the power.  Sufficient Balefire could completely eliminate a persons current life time, but that would be the extent of the effects.  The Dragon is not protected from Balefire and should he be Balefired, he would die and need to be spun out again.  If Rand dies before Tarmon Gai'don, the Shadow likely wins.  I say likely because Ishamael has been hesitant about trying to kill him.  As mentioned, if the Dark One wins, time is broken and the cycle ends.

[nashdude]

I've always felt that in some form or fashion, Rand would "break the Wheel", making this Last Battle the REALLY Last Battle. Well, this morning, on my re-read of CoT, I got to thinking of how Alivia is supposed to "help Rand die". Cadsuane speaks to her about midway through the book, and Alivia says that she owes Rand everything, adding the comment that there is NOTHING that Rand could ever ask her that she would not do.

 

I wonder---is Rand and the DO tied, somehow? In other words, Rand is spun out to face off against the DO. It would stand to reason that if there is no DO, there would be no need for a Dragon.

 

Which leads me to wonder---does Rand come to realize this, and then enlist Alivia to balefire him, burning him out of the Pattern and getting rid of both him and the DO? We know that none of Rand's other compadre's would ever dream of it, but Alivia would do WHATEVER he asked her, no matter the personal cost.

 

Thoughts?

[Mr Ares]

Does this mean Last Battle is not really the Last Battle, but just an endless, hopeless loop, stuck forever to repeat. Sounds like to me Rand won't be the last Dragon. The thing is if this just a repeating loop then here is no real conclusion to the story and that really bothers me.

Given what we know, that sounds about right. The Last Battle is not the last battle ever.

 

Killing the DO would most likely destroy the Wheel, bringing a shift from cyclic to linear time.

I would say it is more likely destroying the Wheel would simply end time, rather than make it linear. Unless you know something I don't?

 

I've always felt that in some form or fashion, Rand would "break the Wheel", making this Last Battle the REALLY Last Battle.

I've always felt destroying the Wheel would be suicidal.

Well, this morning, on my re-read of CoT, I got to thinking of how Alivia is supposed to "help Rand die". Cadsuane speaks to her about midway through the book, and Alivia says that she owes Rand everything, adding the comment that there is NOTHING that Rand could ever ask her that she would not do.

 

I wonder---is Rand and the DO tied, somehow? In other words, Rand is spun out to face off against the DO. It would stand to reason that if there is no DO, there would be no need for a Dragon.

So far as we know, they are not tied together.

Which leads me to wonder---does Rand come to realize this, and then enlist Alivia to balefire him, burning him out of the Pattern and getting rid of both him and the DO? We know that none of Rand's other compadre's would ever dream of it, but Alivia would do WHATEVER he asked her, no matter the personal cost.

 

Thoughts?

I think you need a reminder that balefire deosn't burn a soul out of the Pattern, just a life - a balefired soul can still be rewoven. Also, destroying Rand would kill the Light's chances. They need him to win, without him they lose.

[Majsju]

I would say it is more likely destroying the Wheel would simply end time, rather than make it linear. Unless you know something I don't?

 

You can't end time. This may be a fantasy world, but that does not mean you can toss the laws of physics out the window.

[Guest cw]

Which leads me to wonder---does Rand come to realize this, and then enlist Alivia to balefire him, burning him out of the Pattern and getting rid of both him and the DO? We know that none of Rand's other compadre's would ever dream of it, but Alivia would do WHATEVER he asked her, no matter the personal cost.

 

Thoughts?

I think you need a reminder that balefire deosn't burn a soul out of the Pattern, just a life - a balefired soul can still be rewoven. Also, destroying Rand would kill the Light's chances. They need him to win, without him they lose.

 

You know, I said that in the post right before his...

[Mr Ares]

Which leads me to wonder---does Rand come to realize this, and then enlist Alivia to balefire him, burning him out of the Pattern and getting rid of both him and the DO? We know that none of Rand's other compadre's would ever dream of it, but Alivia would do WHATEVER he asked her, no matter the personal cost.

 

Thoughts?

I think you need a reminder that balefire deosn't burn a soul out of the Pattern, just a life - a balefired soul can still be rewoven. Also, destroying Rand would kill the Light's chances. They need him to win, without him they lose.

You know, I said that in the post right before his...

That's why a reminder was needed. The message apparently had trouble getting through.

 

I would say it is more likely destroying the Wheel would simply end time, rather than make it linear. Unless you know something I don't?

You can't end time. This may be a fantasy world, but that does not mean you can toss the laws of physics out the window.

Why, exactly? Must the universe have time (and if yes, must there be a universe)?

[Majsju]

Why, exactly? Must the universe have time (and if yes, must there be a universe)?

 

If a universe exists, there must be time.

Whether or not said universe has to exist, if you have read the books you should know that the world is not destroyed after TG.

[Mr Ares]

Why, exactly? Must the universe have time (and if yes, must there be a universe)?

If a universe exists, there must be time.

Why? Because you say so? (Even if you quoted a physicist, it would be interesting to see how they went about trying to test that hypothesis - any test would be within our universe, and thus subject to our laws of physics)

Whether or not said universe has to exist, if you have read the books you should know that the world is not destroyed after TG.

Indeed, the universe does continue to exist after TG. I never said it didn't. Because I was talking about the universe being destroyed by the Wheel being broken and time ceasing to move, or at least move in a way understandable to humans, and there is no evidence to say that the Wheel has been destroyed in the future, in the references we have (of the Fourth Age, so they apparently keep the Ages even though there is no Wheel, and the Ages will not come again).

[Majsju]

Why? Because you say so? (Even if you quoted a physicist, it would be interesting to see how they went about trying to test that hypothesis - any test would be within our universe, and thus subject to our laws of physics)

 

We are talking about our universe, and thus our laws of physics. Incidently, physics being a subject RJ was quite familiar with...

 

Indeed, the universe does continue to exist after TG. I never said it didn't. Because I was talking about the universe being destroyed by the Wheel being broken and time ceasing to move, or at least move in a way understandable to humans, and there is no evidence to say that the Wheel has been destroyed in the future, in the references we have (of the Fourth Age, so they apparently keep the Ages even though there is no Wheel, and the Ages will not come again).

 

The people in the 4th Age would not notice a shift from cyclic to linear time, so for them it would be natural to call their Age the 4th.

But I don't believe Rand will break the Wheel, and thus the Ages will go on with business as usual.

[Mr Ares]

Why? Because you say so? (Even if you quoted a physicist, it would be interesting to see how they went about trying to test that hypothesis - any test would be within our universe, and thus subject to our laws of physics)

 

We are talking about our universe, and thus our laws of physics. Incidently, physics being a subject RJ was quite familiar with...

Which still fails to back up your statements....

 

Indeed, the universe does continue to exist after TG. I never said it didn't. Because I was talking about the universe being destroyed by the Wheel being broken and time ceasing to move, or at least move in a way understandable to humans, and there is no evidence to say that the Wheel has been destroyed in the future, in the references we have (of the Fourth Age, so they apparently keep the Ages even though there is no Wheel, and the Ages will not come again).

The people in the 4th Age would not notice a shift from cyclic to linear time, so for them it would be natural to call their Age the 4th.

But I don't believe Rand will break the Wheel, and thus the Ages will go on with business as usual.

So as Rand will not be doing it, and the only being likely to is Shai'tan, a being who does not have the universes best interests at heart...why are we arguing? Because we disagree as to what the result of an event that neither of us thinks will happen will be? And how could we be sure that if it did happen, and the results are as you think they will be, no-one will notice (beyond your belief that they wouldn't, which seems to be enough for everything else)? I think we better leave this alone now.

[cloglord]

Killing the DO ...

 

Killing the DO is your words, not mine.

 

I would have to disagree that the passage is referring to the Aiel.  The Aiel are the "Poeple of the Dragon" not the "Blood of the Dragon".

 

Did you not read the 5 or so quotations from aiel prophecy that I quoted that equated the Aiel with Rand's blood?  Even the wise ones go around saying things like, "we will make him see his blood for his own..."  You don't have to agree, but the Aiel are just as surely Rand's blood as they are his people.

 

ou can't end time. This may be a fantasy world, but that does not mean you can toss the laws of physics out the window.

We are talking about our universe, and thus our laws of physics. Incidently, physics being a subject RJ was quite familiar with...

 

Yeah, I quess channeling is just a case of people with a recessive genetic trait being able to use neural impulses to effect wave particles in such a fashion as to cause spontaneous allignment of molecules, or to instigate rapid oxidation...I think I read RJ saying somthing like this during one of the Question's of the week... ::)

[Majsju]

Yeah, I quess channeling is just a case of people with a recessive genetic trait being able to use neural impulses to effect wave particles in such a fashion as to cause spontaneous allignment of molecules, or to instigate rapid oxidation...I think I read RJ saying somthing like this during one of the Question's of the week.

 

He has said that he based how channeling works on physics.

[cloglord]

He has said that he based how channeling works on physics.

 

Uhm, first off, where?  Secondly, even if this is true, he said it was based off of physics.  Just like the books are based off our world.  Ultimately, this is a work of fiction, just because you don't think something fits with your real-world-view doesn't mean anything.

[Paviel]

"The great battle done, but the world not done with battle."

 

"There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time."

 

So the Last Battle is indeed a misnomer.

[cloglord]

So the Last Battle is indeed a misnomer.

 

That's the whole crux of this discussion isn't it?  However, the quotes that you cite don't neccesarily mean what you take them to mean.  THe first one about the world not done with battle is I think refering to THE LAST BATTLE with capitals, but is also saying that just because the big one is done doesn't mean that the world will automatically be filled with goodness and light.  I agree however, that in this instance the Last Battle will at least not end in the world's destruction.

 

The second one that you offer is more to the point.  However  I have problems with that one as well.  There are neither begginings nor endings does not seem possible.  This worldview has a creator, and the DO was imprisoned at the moment of creation, giving a clear indication that there was indeed a beggining to the turning of the wheel of time.  Luckily, geometry gives us a precedent to how something can have a definite starting point and still continue to be infinite in scope, the example I am thinking of is the example of a "ray."  This provides us a continuum for the operation of the wheel, it is a line that began at creation, that will coninue through infinity.  RJ throws this geometry a literal curve by describing this infinite path in terms of a line that is curved along a constant degree describing a circle of time, or the wheel.  (for all you mathematicians, please forgive me, as this has exhauseted my recollection of highschool geometry, a subject that I wasn't that good at anyway.)  It basically breaks down to the question, is time infinite or finite?  Either circular time or linear time could be infinite despite having a defined starting point, but if it is possible that the DO really can stop time, then it can't really be infinite, because on a long enough timeline circumstances will allign to allow this possibility.  However, if Time is truely infinite then it takes the possibility of the DO's victory completely off the table and spoils the ending for us, because we would already know for sure that the DO can not possibly win. 

[Paviel]

I don't think it's as much a question of who wins or loses as at what cost the Light will win (or the Shadow, on the off-chance that it does win). Take the end of the Age of Legends, for example: the Light clearly triumphed over the Shadow, but at a terrible cost in the form of the taint and the Breaking of the World.

 

And as for the turning of the Wheel having to start somewhere, maybe this is true, but if so it happened so long ago that it's irrelevant. At least fourteen Ages must have passed for people to figure out that every seven Ages tend to repeat themselves. Assuming that each Age lasts about 3,000 years (which, based on the length of the Third Age, and in the absence of evidence to the contrary, is the best assumption one can make), that's 42,000 years. Nothing compared to, say, the age of our solar system, but compared to the history of human civilization, that's a long time nonetheless.

 

Come to think of it, the Ages are numbered...