The Ages make no sense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well, I actually do say so, but that shouldn't be the basis for your opinion or anyone else's ...

 

To summarize my position very shortly, the only criterion I can find in Jordan's (very sketchy) descriptions of how Ages change is that humanity itself changes.  Humanity is the same in the "present" as it was in the Age of Legends ... the same abilities, the same paths to power.  (The coming "Fourth Age" is heralded not by Tarmon Gai'don so much as by new abilities appearing in humankind, like Min, Hurin, and Perrin ... maybe even Mat)  Humans affect the world/Pattern in the same way now that they did in the AoL, primarily through channeling.  They are fighting the same fight, with the same weapons.  Then, too, when Herid Fel talks to Rand about the Dark One's prison and all that in LoC ch 18, Fel seems to say that the current Age and the Age of Legends are one and the same.

 

This is not something I'm prepared to say I'm sure about.  I've asked numerous times (and looked myself) for a reliable, sourced statement from Jordan to the contrary, and haven't seen one yet ... so -shrug-

[Blackmoore]

We don't really know anything for certain except the following:

 

1st Age -->  Age before the Age of Legends

 

This is our age, based on Thom Merrilin's stories about Mosk and Merk, Lemm flying to the Moon in the belly of an Eagle, Alsbet the Queen of All, etc.

 

Arguably, we are also in the process of forgetting about the Dark One, as not believing in the Dark One would seem to me to be the prerequisiste to forgetting him.

 

Dark One's prison is whole

 

One presumes that the demarcation of 1st age and 2nd Age is the (re)Discovery of the One Power

 

Normal Tech

 

2nd Age -->  Age of Legends

 

Dark One's prison is whole

One Power Use

Bore is drilled in the prison, Dark One is forgotten

Bore is improperly sealed by LTT

 

3rd Age --> Randland Present

 

Saidin is tainted

Bore is patched and breaking down

Dark One is remembered

One Power is used

 

One presumes that the Dark One is resealed correctly

 

4th Age --> Randland Future

 

Dark One is sealed and remembered

One Power is used -- Nicola foretold that Guardians balanced the Servants (no need for balancing, if no one can channel)

Steampunk tech -- Matt's cannons, the Rand Schools of Engineering, etc.

 

From there?

 

We don't know how many ages there are supposed to be.  The Iconography of chapters seems to suggest that there are 7 ages -- the snake winding through the wheel, where the wheel has 7 areas.

 

So, before we get back to the first Age, we need to loose tech, loose the one power but still remember the Dark One.

 

It also seems to me that the Dark One does not have an opportunity for victory every age, in fact it seems to me that the Dark One can only win when during Ages where the One Power is weilded. 

 

Has the Dragon Soul served the Dark One?

 

People say that you can't trust Ishamael's statements, but I think that we can trust him to a certain degree about Randland metaphysics.  Ishy's fundemental claims are as follows:

 

(1)  There has been an endless battle, and Ishy and Rand are the DO's and the Creators proxies in that endless war -- True

(2)  Rand was controlled by the White Tower even down to his breeding -- True, sort of.  Gitara Sedai definitely manipulated both Tiagrine and Luc, which had the result of Rand's birth and the doom of both Tiagrine and Janduin.

(3)  The Dark One wants Rand to serve him -- True, backed up by Lanfear, as well as the remarks about several attempts to convert LTT in the War of Power. 

(4)  Rand has served the Dark One in the past -- possiblly, considering that Artur Hawkwing confirms that he has battled Rand in the past.

 

So, it seems to me that it is very likely that the Dragonsoul has served the Shadow in the past, obviously not to total destruction of the wheel.  It also stands to reason that the wheel has a backup plan just in case -- Artur Hawkwing. 

 

If this was an Age where Rand could go over to the Shadow, then Hawkwing would be around to defeat Rand -- or try to.

 

Overall, I think the Dark One's best chance really was in the Age of Legends, where there were many One Power sensitives and many who were tempted to his side.  In Randland, I think while the number of One Power sensitives is increasing, the Shadow is outnumbered and the advent of Rand's channeling till the Last Battle will be ~5 years rather than the 40 year War of Power. 

 

 

[Majsju]

(1)  There has been an endless battle, and Ishy and Rand are the DO's and the Creators proxies in that endless war -- True

That Ishy would be the DOs proxy is speculation.

 

(2)  Rand was controlled by the White Tower even down to his breeding -- True, sort of.  Gitara Sedai definitely manipulated both Tiagrine and Luc, which had the result of Rand's birth and the doom of both Tiagrine and Janduin.

We do not know how much Gitara knew about the reasons for sending Tigraine and Luc away. You'd think that if she had known about Tigraines connection to the Dragon Reborn, she would at least have given a hint to Tamra, and not have been so shocked when she had the Foretelling about Rand being born. Given how obscure Foretellings are, she probably only knew she had to send Tigraine and Luc away, without the slightest inkling of why.

 

(3)  The Dark One wants Rand to serve him -- True, backed up by Lanfear, as well as the remarks about several attempts to convert LTT in the War of Power.

Turn him if possible, otherwise kill him. Ishy has both tried to kill Rand himself, as well as giving green light to have Rand killed.

 

(4)  Rand has served the Dark One in the past -- possiblly, considering that Artur Hawkwing confirms that he has battled Rand in the past.

Because Hawkwing could not possibly have fought on the dark side...

Heroes, when in the flesh, does not necessarily always fight on the same side, for the Light. They fight for the Wheel, which is something quite different. Which means that it is quite possible for two Heroes to fight eachother, even if none of them have any connection to the Shadow.

 

So, it seems to me that it is very likely that the Dragonsoul has served the Shadow in the past, obviously not to total destruction of the wheel.  It also stands to reason that the wheel has a backup plan just in case -- Artur Hawkwing. 

 

Too bad Hawkwing is quite occupied being dead...

[RobertAlexWillis]

I'm sorry, but we simply don't know an awful lot of that.  I'll skip the Age stuff, but I'd like to address these:

 

(1)  There has been an endless battle, and Ishy and Rand are the DO's and the Creators proxies in that endless war -- True

 

Not true.  There is no indication whatsoever that Ishamael has any special signifigance in the "endless battle".

 

 

(2)  Rand was controlled by the White Tower even down to his breeding -- True, sort of.  Gitara Sedai definitely manipulated both Tiagrine and Luc, which had the result of Rand's birth and the doom of both Tiagrine and Janduin.

 

The example you gave it probably the only one ... that hardly constitutes controlling Rand's breeding for a thousand generations, as Ishamael claimed.  And that was the Pattern manipulating Gitara with a Foretelling, not the Tower.

 

 

(3)  The Dark One wants Rand to serve him -- True, backed up by Lanfear, as well as the remarks about several attempts to convert LTT in the War of Power.

 

OK, that one is true ... and no big surprise.  Your enemy wants you to surrender.  What a shock.

 

 

(4)  Rand has served the Dark One in the past -- possiblly, considering that Artur Hawkwing confirms that he has battled Rand in the past.

 

Not true.  Just because Rand and Hawkwing found themselves on opposite sides in the past does NOT mean that either of them served the Shadow.  People fight, even when the Dark One is not loose.

 

Edit: LOL ... guess I should read what the person posting ahead of me posted ...  ;D

[Great Lord of the Dark]

...and stop correcting people all the time. That's my job. Ishameal is so cool. What is Shaidar Haran???? or who?