Military Tactics

[Jonn]

Reading the trolloc attack thread got me to thinking about how one would be able to condust war with so many chanellers about.

Ever since Lord of Chaos, we have come to a bit of an understanding of the power of using large numbbers of Channelers in battle.

I thought it would be nice to hear people's thoughts on how battles could turn out come Tarmon Gaidon at its hottest.

We could also discuss the battle scenarios that have already happened up to the latest book and mistakes or triumphs, and keys to those victories and defeats.

 

I'd like to start with the latest engagement with large numbers of Shadowspawn against Rand's party in Eastern Tear.

 

I think the tactics used were horrible if it came down to actually trying to kill Rand and CO. I actually think it was more of a move to get Rand to move rather than an earnest attack on his life. That's a different discussion though.

 

One of the glaring faults to me though was that at first the shadowspawn seemed to be trying to attack by surprise at first. That is just a crazy concept as any channeler would be able to feel that many Shadowspawn from a mile away. In fact, that is what happened. The other fault was to attack so wide open and in basically one direction.

 

My question is, what kind of alterations could have been made in this particular scenario, that would have made it a less one-sided affair>? I will submit that we leave out adding dreadlords or Forsaken to the mix for now.

 

For me, I would have used Darkfirends. A few thousand to sneak around the flanks and surround the farmhouse and engage before the larger numbers of trollocs launched their charge would have made things very difficult for the contingents on hand. First, they would not be so easily detected by the channelers, and secondly holding until they were within a few hundred meters and attacking with stealth would give less time for the Aes Sedai to feel in danger or to know that they were justified in determining their attackers as dearfriends. They are also more natural archers and crossbowmen than shadowspawn. Being able to attack at long range and pin down even a channeler would be rather useful. With a few thousand darkfriends to pin down and engage Rand's forces, the shadowspawn would have had better cover to manuever around the compound and attack with more purpose. the channlers would still probably come out on top, but the percentages would change. there would be a good chance of forcing Rand and Co to flee the field.

[Guest Majsju]

I pretty much agree. And also, they should have used channelers to block as much as possible of what Rand and the others was hurling at the trollocs. It was a pretty close call as it was, imagine if a few channelers had been able to block just 20% of Rand & Co's weaves.

[Luckers]

Mmm. Which is part of why i think it was Taim. The channelers Taim could have sent are traceable to men loyal to him... once may have been betrayal, but even Rand would have done it twice.

[falcon1983]

I dont think Taim is Taim. If you know what I mean, look at the forsaken. Most of them have their places and the only one that we dont know exactly where he is is Demandred. But we do know that he is in a very good place. I think Demandred is Taim and vice versa. He was always jealous of the kinslayer, per the dragons on his sleaves.

 

Smart thinkin right?

 

Logan

 

BotRH OTS Infantry

[Guest Majsju]

I dont think Taim is Taim. If you know what I mean' date=' look at the forsaken. Most of them have their places and the only one that we dont know exactly where he is is Demandred. But we do know that he is in a very good place. I think Demandred is Taim and vice versa. He was always jealous of the kinslayer, per the dragons on his sleaves.

 

Smart thinkin right?

 

Logan

 

BotRH OTS Infantry[/quote']

 

This has been brought up and debunked about 2 million times already.

RJ has officially stated that Taim is not Demandred.

[Paradoxic]

I would have had about 12 Fades come in from the other side of the Trolloc assault. They would split into four groups three and enter the house at different points, two upstairs and two downstairs. Setting the house on fire would be one of the goals (using whatever they find, such as laterns and fireplaces) and another would be to tag team anyone they find. Three fades would give anyone there a run for their money. It is possible they could have even reached Rand and Logain without being noticed given how utterly focused those two were on their channeling.

 

From how the fight is described, it was ALL the channelers could do to keep the trollocs from overwhelming them. If there was a secondary threat from another direction, the channelers would have had to have split their forces. At the least, this would mean less coverage on any one approach. At the most, it could have prevented Logain from learning the super special killing weaves that LTT was having Rand use... because without those weaves, I don't think Logain could have enough. Of course, this secondary threat could have been a few thousand trollocs that were moved/skimmed to somewhere on the other side of this house or my previously discussed fade strike force.

 

Now, as to whether it was meant to kill Rand... It was a LOT of trollocs to just get him to leave. I think it was an honest attempt to kill Rand. If Rand had not had LTT show him those special moves; If Logain wasn't there or he didn't use those new moves himself; If the attacker assaulted from any additional vectors... Rand would have been overwhelmed. As for who did it... that's for another thread.

[Jonn]

A fade did manage to get close enough to kill Rand. The maidens and Min saved him. that speaks as to how close a hundred thousand shadowspawn can get. One fade got close enough to touch Rand. Maybe two hundred thousand would make him have to retreat.

 

Anyone else wonder why there isn't more use of ballistas, trebuchets and catapults?

[Deathblade]

This is rediculous anyway. With Callandor, Rand could obliterate everything in front of him for ten miles in seconds. With the Choedan Kal, he could deleted the Blight as if it were never there. The only reason I can think of is that it would cause prophecy to be sidestepped. How could bleed on the slopes of a mountain that is now a 15 mile deep chasm?

[Guest Majsju]

This is rediculous anyway. With Callandor' date=' Rand could obliterate everything in front of him for ten miles in seconds. With the Choedan Kal, he could deleted the Blight as if it were never there. The only reason I can think of is that it would cause prophecy to be sidestepped. How could bleed on the slopes of a mountain that is now a 15 mile deep chasm?[/quote']

 

"His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul..."

 

Rocks, not slopes. Slopes was on Dragonmount, where he was born.

 

But blowing Shayol Ghul to smithereens would not help him defeat the DO, since the Bore isn't there, just more present there than anywhere else in the world.

[Deathblade]

Well, destrying the blight would kill a lot of his enemies and none of his allies. Simple as that. Wiping the Shadow's military presence from the world would be a good thing in a war against the Shadow...

[Red States Rule!]

This has been rehashed before.

 

Ways, Portal Stones, possibly gateways with the True Power, and maybe Skimming. Only way to get the Trollocs south without marching.

 

Only way the DO can win: Use darkfriend Ashaman and Aes Sedai to hold up the good guys.

[Jonn]

The Choedan Kal are rather useful, but it seems even the Forsken are a little wary of the use of them. I forget who said it, but the Choedan Kal have the potential to crack the world like an egg. I don't think that's an overstatement.

Channeling large amounts of Saidin, even cleansed, right now isn't the safest thing for Rand to do with a madman in his head seizing the source and being suicidal. I don't think he really trusts any of the Ashaman enough to let them handle it either.

 

Callandor has its own limitations. It requires a circle with women guiding the flows to be used safely. Otherwise the Power goes all wonky and people start losing control of their weaves.

 

Besides, nuking the entire Blight wouldn't limit the damage to just the Blight. You're talking about a Global level event here. Look, an object the size of a football field striking the Earth intact could wipe life out on the planet for centuries. Wipe out life using the Power in an area that spans an entire continent?

 

That's insane. The world would crack like an egg. Way to go, savior.

[Deathblade]

Well, limiting the destrruction to only Shayol Ghul would not wreck the rest of the world. If that's where the fades get their blades, then the result would be fades with regular blades. Also, the pit of doom would be gone, as with morridin's palace. Along with billions of shadowspawn. Selectivelay clansing say a square mile at a time would be less world consequential, too.

[Paradoxic]

Regarding the lack of traditional machines of war... Trollocs and Fades enjoy personally killing things, not lobbing rocks at them. The Forsaken come from a time when those machines were obsolete. Those from this time (Taim, Fain, random Dreadlord) have extremely high belief in the strength of the Trollocs and wouldn't have bothered with such things.

 

Also, they are heavy and bulky and require people who know what they are doing to build them and keep them working... as far as we know, for whatever reason the attack was solely Trollocs and Fades.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Callandor has its own limitations. It requires a circle with women guiding the flows to be used safely. Otherwise the Power goes all wonky and people start losing control of their weaves.

 

I don't think that's accurate.

 

Callandor's flaw is supposed to be that it lacks a buffer. A channeler using it could burn him/herself out.

 

It has only been in the area surrounding the Kin's farm where the Power has gone all wonky. That was due to Elayne's gateway exploding when she tried to unravel it.

[Jedimuppet]

Callandor has its own limitations. It requires a circle with women guiding the flows to be used safely. Otherwise the Power goes all wonky and people start losing control of their weaves.

 

I don't think that's accurate.

 

Callandor's flaw is supposed to be that it lacks a buffer. A channeler using it could burn him/herself out.

 

It has only been in the area surrounding the Kin's farm where the Power has gone all wonky. That was due to Elayne's gateway exploding when she tried to unravel it.

 

No, the previous poster was correct. It requires two females to direct the flows, and a male to channel through it for it to be used safely. It does also lack a buffer.

J

[Paradoxic]

Hold on now... Rand illustrated that Callandor can be used by a single man. What we learn about it later is that it does not buffer the man against the strain of the larger amounts of power.

 

Traditionally, angreal and sa'angreal provide a buffer that prevents drawing too much power and burning yourself out. The buffer may also provide protection against the weariness of holding all that additional power. This protective buffer also exists within a circle of linked channelers.

 

Callandor does not, itself, create a buffer against the power. Therefor, if you want to safely use it, a man has to join a circle controlled by women. This way the circle's buffer protects the male channeler from drawing too much.

 

Wonky flows and the like are unrelated to Callandor's uses; that was strictly geographical in nature.

[Jedimuppet]

Hold on now... Rand illustrated that Callandor can be used by a single man. What we learn about it later is that it does not buffer the man against the strain of the larger amounts of power.

 

Traditionally' date=' angreal and sa'angreal provide a buffer that prevents drawing too much power and burning yourself out. The buffer may also provide protection against the weariness of holding all that additional power. This protective buffer also exists within a circle of linked channelers.

 

Callandor does not, itself, create a buffer against the power. Therefor, if you want to safely use it, a man has to join a circle controlled by women. This way the circle's buffer protects the male channeler from drawing too much.

 

Wonky flows and the like are unrelated to Callandor's uses; that was strictly geographical in nature.[/quote']

 

What Rand demonstrated is that a man using Callandor cannot direct the flows safely.

 

That requires two females, and is exactly what Cads warned him about.

J

[Jeppit Groccin]

it was not from the gateway exploding, it was from the Bowl of the Winds being overused.

 

It was created to influence only the weather of a relatively small region, not the entire continent. it drew too much of the Power and is causing Saidar to go bonkers.

[Jonn]

Well' date=' limiting the destrruction to only Shayol Ghul would not wreck the rest of the world. If that's where the fades get their blades, then the result would be fades with regular blades. Also, the pit of doom would be gone, as with morridin's palace. Along with billions of shadowspawn. Selectivelay clansing say a square mile at a time would be less world consequential, too.[/quote']

A square mile at a time?

Well, how long would that take? Wouldn't the Shadowspawn just flood out into the Southlands? What're you going to do then? Besides, it's not like they have some sort of sattelite system where they can pinpoint that accurately a square mile at a time. To obliterate Shayol Ghul, you'd probably have to get relatively close to do it. We all know that that is not the easiest thing to do with all of the dark wards. We all know what ahppened last time someone tried to Travel into Shayol Ghul and wipe it out.

What you're talking about is carpet bombing with one plane doing all the bombing. The map we all look at in the books represents a continent, okay. Even travelling it would take forever to do something with the Choedan Kal as expansive as bombing out one mile of the Blight at a time. I think some people have the idea that the trollocs and fades all live in and around Shayol Ghul. Umm, no. The Blight spans the entire world even across the sea and the Waste, there is a Blight.

Another thing is the attention using the Choedan Kal brings. Conducting a sweep of the Blight would attract every Forsaken and Dreadlord in the world to come and stop you. It would degenerate into an all out Power battle that, on site, could have major consequences for the surrounding area. Once teh Shadow knows what tou're doing, how reluctant are they going to be to use balefire to stop it?

 

It's not so simple.

[Jonn]

Was it the Bowl of Winds? Hmm, come to think of it, that would make sense. Still, you do need to link with women with them guiding the flows to effectively use Callandor.

 

I was thinking about when Rand went nuts and tried to use Callandor on his own in Altara and he managed to zap a bunch of his own people as well as the Seanchan army. I believe Cadsuane did mention that a woman had to direct the flows for it to be safe, although she may only just believe that to be the truth rather than it being the actual truth.

[Jedimuppet]

Was it the Bowl of Winds? Hmm' date=' come to think of it, that would make sense. Still, you do need to link with women with them guiding the flows to effectively use Callandor.

 

I was thinking about when Rand went nuts and tried to use Callandor on his own in Altara and he managed to zap a bunch of his own people as well as the Seanchan army. I believe Cadsuane did mention that a woman had to direct the flows for it to be safe, although she may only just believe that to be the truth rather than it being the actual truth.[/quote']

 

It's because Callandor magnifies the taint AND has no buffer. Cads says this straight out to Rand at the end of PoD, when she tells him he needs two women to use it safely.

J

[KingNothing]

Back to the strategy stuff... I always wondered why the Forskaen don't use Isam/Luc more...In WH (Chapter 22(?)) Isam/Luc step out of Telaranriod and stabs two people in bed.... It would be a rather effective way too remove Rands helpers, Like Bashere, some kings and queens and so on... havent understood that...

[Jedimuppet]

Back to the strategy stuff... I always wondered why the Forskaen don't use Isam/Luc more...In WH (Chapter 22(?)) Isam/Luc step out of Telaranriod and stabs two people in bed.... It would be a rather effective way too remove Rands helpers' date=' Like Bashere, some kings and queens and so on... havent understood that...[/quote']

 

I hope it isn't so, but it may be that Bashere is already where the DO wants him.

J

[Paradoxic]

I'm also confused why the Shadow hasn't been more stabby lately. Why not assassinate the rulers of every major country? Especially with the "let the lord of chaos rule" command and all... why not just gateway into the throne room, blow it up, gateway out like what is done at the start of KoD? Why not have a few grey men going around killing every single noble they can?