Who sent the trollocs to the manor house in KoD?

[Jedimuppet]

Forgive me if this has already been discussed.

 

In KoD Moridin says that Sammael is responsible for sending a large amount of Trollocs through the ways that we see later attacking the manor house rand and co are staying at.

 

RJ has unequivocally stated that Sammael is dead. Has anyone given thought to whom would be posing as Sammael?

 

J

[Guest Majsju]

First of all, RJ only stated that Sammael died in ACOS, not that he would stay dead. So there is a possibility that Sammael has been brought back.

 

The other option is that someone is posing as him. If that's the case, it's most likely a forsaken, since shadowspawn would not obey anyone else. The only one we can rule out with absolute certainity is Halima, since we read the scene from her POV. Cyndane and Moghedien are very unlikely as well, with them being mind-trapped.

 

There is a microscopic chance it could be Taim, if he has been raised to forsaken level off-screen. But Logain's story about what happened when he went to the BT speaks strongly against that, since he told how Taim almost went homicidal trying to find out the whereabouts of Rand.

[Mardragon]

I always wondered if Sammael actually did die considering that we never actually saw the incident of his death. All we know is that the mist of Mashadar (is that the right word?) was near him at the time and Rand and Moridin were doing their little 'balefire duo' act. Then when they looked he was nowhere to be seen and there was no saidin residue for a gateway.

 

Logically we could assume that he was hit by the balefire (in which case there's no coming back) or he was devoured by the Mashadar. I assumed that he had survived somehow since that's often the case when someone is left unaccounted for in a story. It is however a bit of a cliche, so it's interesting that RJ reportedly decided that he is dead after all (I haven't read that blog myself though).

 

If the balefire hit him then he's gone for good. I guess if mashadar had taken him then he could have been reincarnated, but I'm not sure of what state someone's soul would be in after being devoured by Mashadar. Would the devouring be purely physical or would it eat his soul too like when someone is possessed by Mordeth? Considering the affect the dagger had on Mat, it would apear that the effect of Shadar Logoth is spiritual as well as physical.

 

If it is another member of the forsaken who sent the trollocs, I suspect Demandred. That might be a bit too obvious though since the clues point to him.

[Guest Majsju]

Mardragon, RJ has stated that Mashadar killed Sammael. What that means for his chances of being brought back...RAFO :)

[Jedimuppet]

Mardragon' date=' RJ has stated that Mashadar killed Sammael. What that means for his chances of being brought back...RAFO :)[/quote']

 

Well, I do hope Sammael is brought back, though I thought toast meant BF style. He did die a b*tch death.

 

If he's not, and someone is posing as him, I wonder to what end. Is it because he's not to be attacked directly? Is that still a rule? Moridin seems to change his mind on that. I thought at first the "let the lord of chaos rule" directive forbade it, but then Moridin said if you have to kill him, it's ok, just try not to. So I'm a little confused on that.

J

[Guest Majsju]

Well, I think that Moridin's comment about "kill him if you must" in WH came from the need to stop Rand from cleansing, no matter the cost. Now when that failed, back to no killing Rand.

[Jedimuppet]

Well' date=' I think that Moridin's comment about "kill him if you must" in WH came from the need to stop Rand from cleansing, no matter the cost. Now when that failed, back to no killing Rand.[/quote']

 

I guess that works.

J

[Kadere]

The other option is that someone is posing as him. If that's the case' date=' it's most likely a forsaken, since shadowspawn would not obey anyone else. The only one we can rule out with absolute certainity is Halima, since we read the scene from her POV. Cyndane and Moghedien are very unlikely as well, with them being mind-trapped.

 

There is a microscopic chance it could be Taim, if he has been raised to forsaken level off-screen. But Logain's story about what happened when he went to the BT speaks strongly against that, since he told how Taim almost went homicidal trying to find out the whereabouts of Rand.[/quote']

 

Don't forget that Padan Fain can also control Trollocs and Myrdraal, as seen in TGH, TSR, WH and others. It's possible (though I don't buy it) that Padan is the man posing as Sammael.

 

Personally, I hope that Sammael is back. He was AWESOME and I've missed him.

[Jonn]

They had to have been able to pinpoint where Rand was.

They had to also have the will to disobey the order to keep Rand alive.

The other possibility is that the attack was staged under the pretense that Rand would be able to either repel it or escape. In which case, the goal may have been to make Sammael look insubordinate (as well as alive) or to just rattle Rand into taking hasty action.

[Red States Rule!]

I agree with Kadere.

 

I believe it is Padan Fain.

[Guest Majsju]

We've seen Fain control small groups of trollocs, and a few myrdraal. Here we're talking about several thousand trollocs. And Fain's control seems to come from fear, which would indicate a need for a quite direct contact.

 

Besides, Fain is extremely focused on him being the only one allowed to kill Rand, sending trollocs to do the dirty is quite contradicting that.

[Jonn]

Maj is right. This was a massive attack. I believe the sum of the Shadow army was in the tens of tens of thousands.

 

It was actually quite lucky that the force was entirely made up of fades and trollocs. They aren't known for their use of massed archers or long-ranged seige craft. When the Shadow armies start using darkfriends with cavalry and crossbows in tandem with shadowspawn, things could get really interesting. Let us not forget the dreadlords and Forsaken.

 

This attack although it utilized rather poorly, over a hundred thousand trollocs, was surely just a test. That points to one of the Forsaken. The numbers and the probing nature of the tactics used. The planner knew that most likely this attack would not succeed. The aim was probably to get Rand to start moving again.

The Sammael namedrop was probably a ploy. Sammael wouldn't waste that many troops for nothing, just to get Rand to make his next move. He's more of a peck away, stalemate, attrition kind of tactician. This bold a stroke sounds like Demandred.

What do you guys think?

[Luckers]

Actually Rand says that Sammael is the one who would be willing to throw away tens of thousands of men if he thought it would buy him some advantage, but in any case i dont think it was him. Based on the way RJ has said that he is dead, and the way his soul was consumed by Mashadar, i think that he must be gone for good.

 

Incidently, the fact that the figure wore his form is not really proof. Sammael died, if resurected he would have a new body. So whoever did it, including Sammael, would have been wearing Mask of Mirrors... which means the girls arn't invalidated, though A) their voices wouldn't change, and B) it doesn't really fit any of their styles.

 

It does, sort of fit Demandreds, but thats about all the evidence for him there is, that and the presense of the Chosen Mark... not really beyond reasonable doubt.

 

Lets look at Taim, because Maj was wrong, there is more then a microscopic chance for it to be him.

 

EVIDENCE FOR TAIM

 

1. Taim has taken on Sammael's sigil. The instigator took on the form of Sammael, and this shows that aside from Graendal and Sammael himself, Taim is showing thr strongest affiniation with the man.

 

2. Taim uses the phrase "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" which to date we have only heard from Forsaken.

 

3. We know that Shadar Haren gave Alviarin, who screwed up somewhat, a weaker version of the Chosen Mark, meanwhile Taim, who is very strong in the power, has gathered together over a hundred male channelers to be dreadlords, has, for the time being, control of the Black Tower, and has managed to work from inside Rands forces for longer then any of the Forsaken... Adding to the dwindling numbers of the forsaken, it would make sense that he was raised to the Chosen level. I wouldn't be surprised if more are in time.

 

4. The attack matches Taim's personality. As evidenced by the attack in PoD Taim prefers blunt brute force, and that is more then supported in the way he acts. He has not got massive control of his emotions, is impulsive and fairly straightforward. Additionally, a channeler of AOL would have had some comprehension about what a bunch of channelers could actually do againt a hundred thousand trollocs, taim wouldn't have. The use of the Trollocs in that way shows a sloppy, amatuerish understanding of military technique against a channeling foe.

 

EVIDENCE AGAINST

 

1. Taim was interrogating Logain as to Rands whereabouts, indicating that he did not know.

 

COUNTERARGUMET - That just indicates that Taim was extremely interested in knowing where Rand was a couple of days before the attack. Remember that Logain went to Taim first, and then had to organize and oversee the Asha'man going to join the armies, check in on Elayne and the Borderlanders, and converse with Rhuarc. That would have given Taim plenty of time to get the info from a mole--if he is smart, he would have a man amongst Logains men already, if he is not, we know that the Aes Sedai with Logain are looking for ways to influence the tensions between Taim, Logain and Rand... they may be bonding with their bonded Aes Sedai, but they arn't Rand. One of the Aes Sedai would probably see no harm in letting Taim know where rand was and thereby escalating the tensions... Taim probably raced to get the Trollocs going in an attempt that they get there before Logain returned. Meanwhile, the presense of any Asha'men would have probably made Logain realise it was Taim, especially if they were Taims men, which they would have to be. Taim couldn't take that risk.

 

OTHER POINTS

 

There are a lot of reasons for Taim to remain hidden from the other Forsaken, if he was raised... but why wouldn't Shadar Haren tell Moridin... well, for starters we know that Shadar Haren is not Moridins lapdog, by any meaning of the word. He takes actions without discussing them with Moridin, and what we know of his movements seem to indicate that he is pretty much his own boss--which goes pretty much with what the Dark One said.

 

But why specifically not Taim... my guess, Moridin doesn't want the telepathic connection he has with Rand becoming known to the Dark One... remember what they say about the Dark Ones jealousy and paranoia killing more then one forsaken, and to have the leader of your forces connected in that way to your worst enemy... It certainly seems that the other Forsaken dont know.

 

Anyway, so Moridins keeping something from Shadar Haren and the Dark One... who does SH know that? My guess is the reinstigation of the no-kill order. I suspect Moridin did that on his own authority, and that whilst that may not be outside his authority, it has alerted SH that something is up, and so SH has Taim secret... a sort of secret weapon.

 

That doesn't mean, nessasarily, that Taim did what he did at SH's orders... indeed, Taim shows time and again that he operates on his own drive, even if technically he bows to SH... its just i think that is why Moridin doesn't know. In fact it makes a lot of sense to me, given Moridins actions recently.

 

CONCLUSION

The three posibilities seem to be Demandred, Sammael and Taim, with very little evidence for the first two, and a lot for Taim. I think Taim.

[Aviendha]

Argument Against Taim: We haven't seem any evidence that Taim has access to, or any authority over, one trolloc let alone tens and tens of thousands.

 

My thoughts? I think Demandred was behind the attack. Dem hates Rand and wants him dead. The attack was big enough to be serious & possible take rand out (a myddraah almost did) but not easily associated with anyone ... so if the 'don't kill' order still stood, Dem couldn't get his hand slapped for it.

 

I'm also uncomfortable that we didn't 'see' sammael die - rand was busy balefiring Liah (?) while mashadar was overtaking sammael but RJ says he died so he died. But is it ever that simple?

[Luckers]

Argument Against Taim: We haven't seem any evidence that Taim has access to, or any authority over, one trolloc let alone tens and tens of thousands.

 

I covered this. If Taim was given a Chosen Mark by Shadar Haren, he would have total control over trollocs and myrrdraal both. Its a requirement of the Mark. Even Alviarin's weaker mark carry's some power over trollocs, likely not enough for them to obey her, but enough that they would never dream of attacking her.

 

But is it ever that simple?

 

If RJ said he died, he died.

 

My thoughts? I think Demandred was behind the attack. Dem hates Rand and wants him dead. The attack was big enough to be serious & possible take rand out (a myddraah almost did) but not easily associated with anyone ... so if the 'don't kill' order still stood, Dem couldn't get his hand slapped for it.

 

It is viable that Demandred did it, the problems being...

 

1. For a channeler of Demandreds knowledge, and tactical ability, it was a very, very stupid attack plan. Remember that Demandred prided himself at being a better military tactician then LTT... and he what, does something as stupid as that. Off the top of my head i can think of better plans.

 

2. Why choose Sammael? Random choice, and Taim has a better claim to that since it seems he has assosiated himself with Sammael's sigil, and therefore there is more evident connection between the two.

 

Although, to be fair, the Dark One listed the channelers that couldn't return to Demandred, which excludes every channeler but Sammael, so that may be the reasoning.

 

3. What was his motive? Ok, he hates Rand... but he's hated Rand since he arrived back, why now? Those Forsaken that survive are all the careful planners. Be'lal, Sammael, Rhavin, Lanfear... all the ones that took a blunt, head on approach died. There is no viable reason for Demandred to choose now, to do something as stupid as that, especially in violation of Moridins orders after having seen what happens to those who stray. Demandred would not want to be captured in a mindtrap, or tortured like Mesanna.

 

4. How did Demandred find Rand? Taim had access to people that knew, and time after that access to organise. Demandred on the other hand had nothing. Graendal dismisses the idea of tracking a ta'veren in the way Moridin suggests, the darkfriends there havn't had a chance to let anyone know, and no one in a position to know in Cairhain is a darkfriend.

 

 

And what evidence for? He's a forsaken? He hated Rand... those are kind of synonomous. Taim hates Rand alot too, for a lot more personal reasons.

[Guest Majsju]

Luckers, your reasoning for Taim demands that he is a darkfriend, something that is not yet certain.

 

It also demands that the DO goes against his view of modern day channelers as inferiour to the old forsaken.

 

Only then can he have even the ability to orchestrate the attack. But that is not enough, he also needs a way to find Rand. We have no indication that any of the people with Rand would be loyal to Taim. We know that some of the forsaken has the ability to track ta'veren, but not if Taim can do it.

 

As for Demandred as the guilty one...It doesn't make sense if the attack was supposed to actually succeed. But it might have been quite successful if the purpose was to check what the people with Rand are capable of. Press them hard, and see what weaves they pull out. If Demandred is the general he's supposed to be, he is well aware of the advantage of knowing as much as possible of your opponent. Which might have been a reason that it was only trollocs and myrdraal involved, they're easily replaced.

[Moric]

It's not necessarily a very stupid plan. Probing attacks of this magnitude is stupid and wrong when you care about the people dying just to see how well prepared your enemy is and how strong he has become. But if your a darkfriend, or better yet: a Forsaken, and we're talking of forces of trollocs and myrdraal (which seem to be as close to limitless that we're going to come), then it's another thing all together. Then it's smart. Very, very evil and a little wasteful. But still kinda smart.

 

Why Demandred (if he is the general behind the attack) hasn't pulled anything like this before and why he would defy Moridins orders like this. Well, I don't really know. But we have no REAL proof that Mazrim Taim is anything more than a darkfriend (and that is a bit sketchy at best. :mrgreen: ). And it has to BE a FS. Noone else could have access to THAT many shadowspawn at once.

 

Myself: I think i would go for Demandred. It fits quite well with him being so good a general, I think.

 

Moric of the Singing Wind sept of the Miagoma aiel

[Jedimuppet]

Argument Against Taim: We haven't seem any evidence that Taim has access to' date=' or any authority over, one trolloc let alone tens and tens of thousands. [/quote']

 

I covered this. If Taim was given a Chosen Mark by Shadar Haren, he would have total control over trollocs and myrrdraal both. Its a requirement of the Mark. Even Alviarin's weaker mark carry's some power over trollocs, likely not enough for them to obey her, but enough that they would never dream of attacking her.

 

But is it ever that simple?

 

If RJ said he died, he died.

 

My thoughts? I think Demandred was behind the attack. Dem hates Rand and wants him dead. The attack was big enough to be serious & possible take rand out (a myddraah almost did) but not easily associated with anyone ... so if the 'don't kill' order still stood, Dem couldn't get his hand slapped for it.

 

It is viable that Demandred did it, the problems being...

 

1. For a channeler of Demandreds knowledge, and tactical ability, it was a very, very stupid attack plan. Remember that Demandred prided himself at being a better military tactician then LTT... and he what, does something as stupid as that. Off the top of my head i can think of better plans.

 

2. Why choose Sammael? Random choice, and Taim has a better claim to that since it seems he has assosiated himself with Sammael's sigil, and therefore there is more evident connection between the two.

 

Although, to be fair, the Dark One listed the channelers that couldn't return to Demandred, which excludes every channeler but Sammael, so that may be the reasoning.

 

3. What was his motive? Ok, he hates Rand... but he's hated Rand since he arrived back, why now? Those Forsaken that survive are all the careful planners. Be'lal, Sammael, Rhavin, Lanfear... all the ones that took a blunt, head on approach died. There is no viable reason for Demandred to choose now, to do something as stupid as that, especially in violation of Moridins orders after having seen what happens to those who stray. Demandred would not want to be captured in a mindtrap, or tortured like Mesanna.

 

4. How did Demandred find Rand? Taim had access to people that knew, and time after that access to organise. Demandred on the other hand had nothing. Graendal dismisses the idea of tracking a ta'veren in the way Moridin suggests, the darkfriends there havn't had a chance to let anyone know, and no one in a position to know in Cairhain is a darkfriend.

 

 

And what evidence for? He's a forsaken? He hated Rand... those are kind of synonomous. Taim hates Rand alot too, for a lot more personal reasons.

 

My main question came from the fact that I always felt there was more to a forsaken than appearance. THere was a feeling of their power and essence. I don't think being another forsaken would be good enough to just pretend you're another. I think fades and trollocs might even smell the difference.

 

That's just supposition, but do you think shadowspawn respond to forsaken based on appearance?

J

[Luckers]

Jedi, i addressed that. Yes the Forsaken have something extra which the shadowspawn can recognise... the chosen mark. I spent quite a lot of time on why Taim could very well... and indeed probably does have one.

 

Maj, The argument against Taim being a darkfriend is made of straw. He has commanded known darkfriends, displayed knowledge avaliable only through access to the forsaken. If Taim is not a DF then the Dark has so few channelers to be dreadlords, it may as well hang up its banner.

 

That the Dark One looked down on modern channelers is true. But some factors against this are, his AOL's are dwindling, and untrustworthy. Even Moridin is hiding something from him, and whilst the Dark One may not know what that is, i sincerely doubt he is foolish enough not to be aware of it. That right there is reason to show that he would want other tools. Aside from which, if the dark One isn't by now starting to question the quality of his Forsaken given the way they've presented themselves to date, i would be sincerely surprised.

 

Additional to that, i suspect that Taim was trained at one stage by one of the Forsaken, most probably Ishamael, since he has involved himself in the past in ensuring that darkfriend channelers exist in the form of the Black Ajah. Indeed, only he could have trained the male dreadlords that fought in the Trolloc Wars, and i suspect he was at it again. The idea being that he train Taim, and Taim in turn train others, as we know he tried. He said he failed, but i suspect that this isn't the case. I think for about 20 years, around the same time Ishy surfaced to deal with Alviarin's predessesor, the Dark set about recruiting men who can channel to be the new dreadlords.

 

The evidence of this? If Taims men, the BA and whatever darkfriends there are amongst the wise ones and Windfinders are all the dreadlords, then the Dark is in a very, very bad way. In channelers, it would be outnumbered easily 3:1, and probably as high as 5:1.

 

Anyway, back on point. Taim, of all moderners, comes as close to being of Age of Legend material, and the Dark One can't exactly be choosy right now. Taim displays certain mannerism of AOL channelers, picked up likely in the teaching. Indeed, it would even go with his arrogance. He went expecting that he would know more then Rand, yes he had been channeling longer, and yes he's naturally arrogant, but still... the Dragon Reborn. --i do suspect though, that he wasn't tought everything so that he might be kept under control. That would make a lot of sense, if i were going to do that... i would avoid teaching him how to travel specifically.

 

As for the attack on the manor. It WAS stupid from an AOL stanndard. A) If Demandred isn't aware that AOL weaves have begun to diseminate, he's stupid. He knows that Aes Sedai, and Asha'man have been trained up from knowledge gained from Forsaken, and he is aware of LTT B) Trollocs don't grow on trees, they do have to grow up, and to throw away a hundred thousand of them on the eve of Tarmon Gaidon is again, stupid. C) A good tactician, no matter how cold blooded, doesn't send a hundred thousand troops to a useless death to test his enemies. He studies their past battles. E) The Cleansing would have surved the exact same purpose. F) what of the no-kill order. Moridin and SH have both displayed their willingness to really do very nasty stuff to Forsaken who cross the line, and made the others VERY aware of it.

 

From a modern perspective, whose only experience with channelers in battle was Dumai's Wells were it took several hundred channelers to quell the fight, who has displayed a favour for blunt attack in the past (the attack on cairhein), who is not aware of the no-kill order, and likely wouldn't care, who has shown himself to be capable of taking stupid risks on the off chance it succeeds in killing Rand....

 

Demandred is viable, but Taim fits much, much, much better.

[Paradoxic]

I originally came to these thoughts in Jonn's "how would you attack Rand's manorhouse" thread. I was going to go into who I thought it was and all that... until I remembered this thread!

 

I say the person who attacked the house was not a military person. I'd point my finger at Asmodean... but he's kinda dead. Maybe it was one of the girls, none of which professed much in the way of military training. It also 'could' have been Taim, but that would beg the question of where he got so many Trollocs and who the hell would have let him do it? Demandred would have smacked him with a rolled up newspaper for suggesting such a brute force assault. Fain would also be an interesting idea, but that was a lot of trollocs for him to have gathered up... no matter what he can do. A possible point in his favor, however, would be the lack of diversity in the assault. No drahkar, no grey men, no darkfriends...

 

Furthermore, I say that the attack was meant to succeed and was orcestrated by someone who wouldn't have the military experience to know that even 100,000 trollocs would be wiped out by two powerful channelers with knowledge of the super slaying weaves from AoL. There is no chance it was Demandred or a ressurrected Sammael. Even someone like Moridin would have known better. Without needing to assume that Rand knew those weaves, the assault was simply too dull and blunt. 100,000 trollocs would be far more than necessary for taking out Rand if he didn't know those weaves... and simply not the right troop type if he did know the weaves. The right way would involve Fade assault teams and/or Drakhar squadrons and/or Grey men and/or darkfriends.

 

If Rand had not had LTT show him those special moves... If Logain wasn't there or he didn't use those new moves himself... If the attacker assaulted from any additional vectors...

Rand would have been overwhelmed. Now, The attacker could not have known Rand would have learned these weaves from LTT. They also had little reason to assume he was taught them by Asmodean five books ago (Asmodean was not a fighter, after all).

[Jedimuppet]

Jedi' date=' i addressed that. Yes the Forsaken have something extra which the shadowspawn can recognise... the chosen mark. I spent quite a lot of time on why Taim could very well... and indeed probably does have one.

 

Maj, The argument against Taim being a darkfriend is made of straw. He has commanded known darkfriends, displayed knowledge avaliable only through access to the forsaken. If Taim is not a DF then the Dark has so few channelers to be dreadlords, it may as well hang up its banner.

 

That the Dark One looked down on modern channelers is true. But some factors against this are, his AOL's are dwindling, and untrustworthy. Even Moridin is hiding something from him, and whilst the Dark One may not know what that is, i sincerely doubt he is foolish enough not to be aware of it. That right there is reason to show that he would want other tools. Aside from which, if the dark One isn't by now starting to question the quality of his Forsaken given the way they've presented themselves to date, i would be sincerely surprised.

 

Additional to that, i suspect that Taim was trained at one stage by one of the Forsaken, most probably Ishamael, since he has involved himself in the past in ensuring that darkfriend channelers exist in the form of the Black Ajah. Indeed, only he could have trained the male dreadlords that fought in the Trolloc Wars, and i suspect he was at it again. The idea being that he train Taim, and Taim in turn train others, as we know he tried. He said he failed, but i suspect that this isn't the case. I think for about 20 years, around the same time Ishy surfaced to deal with Alviarin's predessesor, the Dark set about recruiting men who can channel to be the new dreadlords.

 

The evidence of this? If Taims men, the BA and whatever darkfriends there are amongst the wise ones and Windfinders are all the dreadlords, then the Dark is in a very, very bad way. In channelers, it would be outnumbered easily 3:1, and probably as high as 5:1.

 

Anyway, back on point. Taim, of all moderners, comes as close to being of Age of Legend material, and the Dark One can't exactly be choosy right now. Taim displays certain mannerism of AOL channelers, picked up likely in the teaching. Indeed, it would even go with his arrogance. He went expecting that he would know more then Rand, yes he had been channeling longer, and yes he's naturally arrogant, but still... the Dragon Reborn. --i do suspect though, that he wasn't tought everything so that he might be kept under control. That would make a lot of sense, if i were going to do that... i would avoid teaching him how to travel specifically.

 

As for the attack on the manor. It WAS stupid from an AOL stanndard. A) If Demandred isn't aware that AOL weaves have begun to diseminate, he's stupid. He knows that Aes Sedai, and Asha'man have been trained up from knowledge gained from Forsaken, and he is aware of LTT B) Trollocs don't grow on trees, they do have to grow up, and to throw away a hundred thousand of them on the eve of Tarmon Gaidon is again, stupid. C) A good tactician, no matter how cold blooded, doesn't send a hundred thousand troops to a useless death to test his enemies. He studies their past battles. E) The Cleansing would have surved the exact same purpose. F) what of the no-kill order. Moridin and SH have both displayed their willingness to really do very nasty stuff to Forsaken who cross the line, and made the others VERY aware of it.

 

From a modern perspective, whose only experience with channelers in battle was Dumai's Wells were it took several hundred channelers to quell the fight, who has displayed a favour for blunt attack in the past (the attack on cairhein), who is not aware of the no-kill order, and likely wouldn't care, who has shown himself to be capable of taking stupid risks on the off chance it succeeds in killing Rand....

 

Demandred is viable, but Taim fits much, much, much better.[/quote']

 

I understand that, but I took it a step farther in the sense that I believe each one has a unique mark.

Maybe I wasn't very clear.

J

[Luckers]

Read my post on the previous page, i address the few problems of Taim--how he ordered the trollocs and all that. Other then that i agree, though Fain seems implausible. He got control of a couple of Myrrdraal a couple of times by torturing them extensively. And he failed a couple of times to convince them as well. The trollocs he managed to scare, but still that would never work on a hundred thousand trollocs and myrrdraal.

[Jedimuppet]

Read my post on the previous page' date=' i address the few problems of Taim--how he ordered the trollocs and all that. Other then that i agree, though Fain seems implausible. He got control of a couple of Myrrdraal a couple of times by torturing them extensively. And he failed a couple of times to convince them as well. The trollocs he managed to scare, but still that would never work on a hundred thousand trollocs and myrrdraal.[/quote']

 

If you were talking to me, I think we're miscommunicating. I don't think the mark of any old forsaken would be enough, nor would appearance. Also, I'd really like to know how one would take on the "sigil" of a Forsaken, especially if they themselves were not. In fact, I think shadowspawn respond to something that's not visual, and would not be fooled by illusion.

 

No one emulates forsaken, even in small clumsy ways like just taking on the name. So, someone had to be very brave, and very connected. Also, that kind of power seems to suggest the DO would know and approve.

 

I mean you have to figure not only can he convincingly carry off being Sammael to the point that Moridin himself believes it, but he was able to find these trollocs and fades laying around...

 

It's just weird..

J

[Luckers]

Actually the mark is enough. It's said several times in the series, and RJ has confirmed it. Shadowspawn, including the Gholam, are forced to obey ANYONE with the forsaken mark.

[Jedimuppet]

Actually the mark is enough. It's said several times in the series' date=' and RJ has confirmed it. Shadowspawn, including the Gholam, are forced to obey ANYONE with the forsaken mark.[/quote']

 

Well, I'm just saying I don't believe it's fakable, and that it seems per Moridin's comments that they're unique, meaning traceable. If Sammael really is dead, it raises *very* interesting questions..

J