a couple of random questions after starting to reread the WoT-

[bjclinton]

hi guys- haven't posted in awhile, but ive got a few questions after starting to reread the series because ive noticed a few things that i may have missed in the past.......

 

1. when moiraine and siuan realized that verin figured out that Rand is the Dragon reborn, this chapter is written from moiraine's point of view....she starts thinking to herself as if she is about to kill verin, and she literally was about to- she embraces the source and regrets what "she is about to do", when something happens that stops her- how would that have been possible w/out violating the three oaths?

 

2. when verin, moiraine and liandrin dissapear right before egwene and nynaeve head to the white tower for the first time, verin catches up to Ingtar and company right after Rand used the portal stone and tells everyone that moiraine sent her...from everything ive seen and read, moiraine left in the middle of the night and even verin was suprised to find her gone. it seems as though verin telling Ingtar that Moiraine sent her is a blatent lie, which means she isn't bound to the 3 oaths......thoughts? i can only think of one way that an aes sedai could break that oath (and its by taking a much darker one).....

 

3. in the great hunt, after nynaeve and elayne escape the seanchan and liandrin, they're trying to figure out how liandrin lied if she was aes sedia....nyanaeve mentions something about "standing under a ter'angreal and swearing to never lie".....was this just an editing error? if recolleciton serves me correct, the oath rod is the only ter'angreal that binds aes sedai from lying.

 

4. this one burns me the most......nearly everytime rand faces ishy, in reality or in his dreams, ishy is always talking about the hundreds and thousands of times that they've battled throughout history- ishy even claims to know every name that rand has ever had...how is it possible for ishmael to have retained all of the details of every former memory? it doesn't make sense- its almost like although RA (aka the Dragon) has been reborn, he is born w/out memory of who or what he is or will become- yet with ishy, its almost as if he has been able to retain all of those former memories. i've tried to think it through logically and the best that i could come up with is a theory- and my theory is that prior to being trapped in the bore with the DO, ishy somehow tapped into the knowledge of his thread in the pattern since the first turning of the wheel and now he has all of those memories in his head (similiar to what matt has from the finn) but thats the best i can come up with- because logically, once he's reborn, he shouldn't have those prior memories.

 

anyway, thanks for looking and responding everyone! 

[cloglord]

1. when moiraine and siuan realized that verin figured out that Rand is the Dragon reborn, this chapter is written from moiraine's point of view....she starts thinking to herself as if she is about to kill verin, and she literally was about to- she embraces the source and regrets what "she is about to do", when something happens that stops her- how would that have been possible w/out violating the three oaths?

 

I think that both Siuan and Moraine felt that they were in imminent danger when their plotting was uncovered, being in danger seems to be the baseline for OP use as a weapon for Aes Sedai later in the series.

 

it seems as though verin telling Ingtar that Moiraine sent her is a blatent lie, which means she isn't bound to the 3 oaths......thoughts?

 

This is the often mentioned, and even more commonly debated Verin lie and the basis for any number of Verin/Moraine is a DF/timetraveler/loopholer theories.  Somewhere, I recall, that RJ denied that this was a mistake, an may have even given one of his famous RAFO's.  There is an interesting discussion of this issue in the FAQ. Here's a link

 

http://www.darkfriends.net/wheel/2_nondark/2.2_rest-chars/2.2.7_verin.html

 

3. in the great hunt, after nynaeve and elayne escape the seanchan and liandrin, they're trying to figure out how liandrin lied if she was aes sedia....nyanaeve mentions something about "standing under a ter'angreal and swearing to never lie".....was this just an editing error?

 

Sorry don't remember this one, if you could give the chapter or quote the pasage here it might help.

 

4. this one burns me the most......nearly everytime rand faces ishy, in reality or in his dreams, ishy is always talking about the hundreds and thousands of times that they've battled throughout history- ishy even claims to know every name that rand has ever had...how is it possible for ishmael to have retained all of the details of every former memory?

 

I don't think you'll like my explaination for this one.  Ishmael was crazy and he was a liar. 

 

[Luckers]

In addition to Cloglords very correct statements.

 

On the issue of Moiraine and Verin. Moiraine states at the end of tGH that she did not send Verin. RJ, when asked about the issue, stated that is was not a mistake (essentially the he intended both that Verin claimed that Moiraine sent her, and that Moiraine later denied it). It becomes even more problematic with the proof that neither Verin nor Moiraine is Black Ajah, and since both are bound by the oath rod (as per the agelessness) how do we reconcile such conflicting statement?

 

As to the question about Ishamael's comments--Ishamael was a philosopher who came to believe that his and the Dragons battles were vital to the cyclical nature of the wheel. They might have been, but we do know that the Dragon has never turned, as per RJ's comments which Cloglord stated verbatim. The dude's insane, and a liar.

[Majsju]

It is quite possible for verin to not be bound by the oath against lying. There are two other oaths, which would still provide her with the ageless look.

Though, that does somewhat conflict with her interrogation and pseude-compulsion of the Aes Sedai who kidnapped rand, since we see through her own POV how she motivates the things she say as to not make them lies in her own mind.

 

Another possibility is that Verin used a stray comment from Moiraine and interpreted in a way that made her able to say she was sent. After all, it is only a lie if the person think it is.

 

 

As for Nynaeve, she has not held the oath rod herself, we have heard it mentioned how she missed out on a Lot of classes aboiut Aes sedai, so she may be somewhat confused about a number of things.

 

And Ishy is a lying liar who lies.

[bjclinton]

thanks for the responses guys....pretty must everything discussed makes sense. still alot of questions about verin, but like RJ said...sounds like i'll have to RAFO!!

 

the only issue that im interested in getting more feedback on at this point would be my question about Moiraine...the oats are specific and she couldn't have used the OP as a weapon against Verin if she were bound by the oaths....we saw this chapter from her POV and my interpretation of how that scene reads is that she was more concered with protect the true Dragon Reborn- at all costs- than using the OP to "defend her life".....

 

thoughts?

[Luckers]

It is quite possible for verin to not be bound by the oath against lying. There are two other oaths, which would still provide her with the ageless look.

Though, that does somewhat conflict with her interrogation and pseude-compulsion of the Aes Sedai who kidnapped rand, since we see through her own POV how she motivates the things she say as to not make them lies in her own mind.

 

Another possibility is that Verin used a stray comment from Moiraine and interpreted in a way that made her able to say she was sent. After all, it is only a lie if the person think it is.

 

The issue with that is that RJ specifies clearly the significance of the Aes Sedai's awareness of how her comment is going to be recieved. The example he used was something along the lines that an Aes Sedai could say a black cloth was white as a matter of sarcasm, but not if, for instance, she was speaking to a blind person who might believe what she had said as the truth.

 

Its not quite the same situation, I know, but it does seem to address this.

 

the only issue that im interested in getting more feedback on at this point would be my question about Moiraine...the oats are specific and she couldn't have used the OP as a weapon against Verin if she were bound by the oaths....we saw this chapter from her POV and my interpretation of how that scene reads is that she was more concered with protect the true Dragon Reborn- at all costs- than using the OP to "defend her life".....

 

For starters, she could think those thoughts. The oaths would only kick in if she actually started weaving. But beyond that i doubt her intention was to use the power then and there as a weapon to kill Verin--for starters, that would be messy and obvious, which would defeat the purpose. Furthermore, neither Moiraine nor Siuan wove... their drawing on the power was a knee-jerk reaction. Defensive more than aggressive, and in that defensive reaction to the threat Verin brought them (which she did) is the basis for what occured.