Definitive Answers! From the Legend Himself...

[reyler]

"Oh but Slayer later reminisces about killing Amico and Joiya but not Asmodean and he'd rank that even higher if he'd actually done it" "Oh but RJ said Amsodean's death wasn't at the Dark One's command" "Oh but how would Asmodean recognise him?" "Oh but Slayer wasn't even in the book" "Oh but we didn't know Slayer was the Dark One's assassin at the time"

 

Did I miss anything, guys?

 

Not that I haven't poked holes in at least the first of those proofs time after time...

[The Dragon Reborn]

Here's another thing it would be good to know (in case you didn't): Demandred is not Mazrim Taim, nor is he posing as Mazrim Taim.

I'd caught onto that one alright, saw an interview with RJ regarding that one. I would have liked to think I had seen most of these answers that RJ had given over the years, guess I've missed alot of them.

 

Damn I really didn't want to spark off this circular debate again...I really thought I had found a definitive answer. Oh well...if everybody else is doing it, I'll thrown mine into the ring too.

 

With absolutely no research or any real amount of time spent thinking on this the impression I got was Graendal. Guess we'll have to wait for aMoL to come out! Or Harriet to announce it. Out of curiosity, when did RJ promise to tells us?

[Kadere]

RJ stated that he'd try to put the answer into AMoL if he could find a place for it, or he'd wait until AMoL came out in paperback before telling us.

 

Now that he's gone, there's no telling when we'll find out. Possibly they'll work it into the last book, but who knows.

[Jonn]

I think there are two really good reasons to say that Graendal probably killed him.

 

1) The DO is not omniscient, but he knows about Asmodean's death when he talks to Demandred. Being that Caemlyn is quite a ways from Shayol Ghul, I doubt he would know unless some one of his spies told him. Yet who would know of his death if there is no body? My guess is that only the killer would know. And guess who visited Shayol Ghul a few days before Demandred? None other than Graendal.

 

2) Graendal somehow manages to loot Sammael's place while staying unseen. She mentions that she had a tough time of it with those pesky Asha'man going in and out, but if she could go unnoticed there, why couldn't she have done the same thing in Caemlyn. And why wouldn't she have looted Rahvin's place as well?

 

The only question is how she knew Rahvin was dead so soon. My guess is that the wards in Caemlyn which were made to detect the channeling of saidin were probably set to alert each of the cabal (Sammael, Graendal, Lanfear, and Rahvin) in case the plan got screwed up, which it did. Of course, there is now the question of why Sammael didn't show. Maybe he just wanted to see another Forsaken get offed so he had greater chances of being Nae'blis.

 

Um, I'm sorry. Where am I supposed to read to confirm this? I don't remember reading that Graendal was in Shayol Ghul before Demandred.

 

In fact, Demandred visits Shayol Ghul the day after the battle for Caemlyn, a day after Rahvin dies.

 

It was hours after the battle when Asmodean was killed.

 

Demandred mentions that Graendal went to meet Moghedien, but Moghedien never showed up.

 

Now we have a possible alibi for Graendal. She was waiting for Moghedien in between the time  that Rahvin was killed and Demandred went to Shayol ghul, and in between she also met with Demandred to tell him that she waited for Moghedien.

 

Now how in she going to go to Shayol Ghul and do all those other things as well as be on standby for the attack on Illian?

 

In Lord of Chaos, Ch. 6, Sammael says that Graendal rarely goes out of her way for anything. That said, it's hard for me to picture her running here to there, all over the place for no reason.

 

She had an appointment with Moghedien which was supposed to take place either before or after they were scheduled to capture Rand in Illian. Nevertheless, it was scheduled before Demandred went to Shayol Ghul and before Graendal was supposed to meet Demandred.

 

Like you say, I can't see how she would find out about Rahvin faster than Demandred would, rush over to Caemlyn at great risk to herself, stick around long enough to stalk and kill Asmodean, then go off to meet both Moghedien and Demandred, THEN go to Shayol Ghul before Demandred.

 

I highly doubt she would go to Caemlyn in the first place because Sammael mentions in Lord of Chaos in Chapter 6, that it was never Graendal's MO to try to face someone like Lews Therin head on. In other descriptions she is described as only acting when she is assured that she will come out victorious, when everything is in her advantage. She otherwise will surrender before the first blow and use deception to stay alive, as she did with Sammael.

 

As for wards to alert everyone, I don't think that's likely. The plan was was centered around the attack going to Illian, not Caemlyn. If anything, Rahvin strikes me as the kind of guy who wants as little to do with the others as he can manage. Setting wards to alert any of the others of anything to do with his territory is a leap in character.

 

*edited, it was Chapter 6 where Sammael mentions Graendal, not the Prologue*

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

"Only she herself knew that she had made her own journey to Shayol Ghul and down to the lake of fire. Only she knew that the Great Lord had all but promised to name her Naeblis, a promise sure to be fulfilled with al'Thor out of the way. She would be the most obedient of the Great Lord's servants. She would sow chaos till the harvest made Demandred's lungs explode." Lord of Chaos, Chapter 6

 

I assume Graendal told the Dark One that she killed Asmodean for a few reasons.

 

1) The Dark One doesn't know everything. Demandred, in one of his PoV's, notes that the Dark One seems to know some things that surprised Demandred, but not know some other things that surprised him equally.

 

So knowing the DO can't see everything that goes on, we're left to wonder what restricts his knowledge. I think he is limited by two things : what his servants tell him, and how close the event is to Shayol Ghul. Since the DO's strength grows weaker the farther from the Bore, I think it is easy to assume his vision is limited in the same way.

 

2) There was no body and the murder was not witnessed. Therefore, the DO's spies couldn't have known, unless the murderer told them. In which case, why wouldn't the murderer tell the DO himself?

 

3) Obviously, there is a lot of evidence Graendal was the killer. Need I rehash this?

 

4) He promised to make her Naeblis. Would he do this for no reason, or if she had not done something which deserved rewarding? Isn't killing a traitor to the DO who is giving away AoL secrets a very good thing?

[Jonn]

"Only she herself knew that she had made her own journey to Shayol Ghul and down to the lake of fire. Only she knew that the Great Lord had all but promised to name her Naeblis, a promise sure to be fulfilled with al'Thor out of the way. She would be the most obedient of the Great Lord's servants. She would sow chaos till the harvest made Demandred's lungs explode." Lord of Chaos, Chapter 6

 

I assume Graendal told the Dark One that she killed Asmodean for a few reasons.

 

1) The Dark One doesn't know everything. Demandred, in one of his PoV's, notes that the Dark One seems to know some things that surprised Demandred, but not know some other things that surprised him equally.

 

So knowing the DO can't see everything that goes on, we're left to wonder what restricts his knowledge. I think he is limited by two things : what his servants tell him, and how close the event is to Shayol Ghul. Since the DO's strength grows weaker the farther from the Bore, I think it is easy to assume his vision is limited in the same way.

 

2) There was no body and the murder was not witnessed. Therefore, the DO's spies couldn't have known, unless the murderer told them. In which case, why wouldn't the murderer tell the DO himself?

 

3) Obviously, there is a lot of evidence Graendal was the killer. Need I rehash this?

 

4) He promised to make her Naeblis. Would he do this for no reason, or if she had not done something which deserved rewarding? Isn't killing a traitor to the DO who is giving away AoL secrets a very good thing?

 

Note that the timeline is not mentioned. Demandred went to Shayol Ghul the day right after Rahvin was killed by Rand. We can assume that it was less than a day since Asmodean had disappeared, and even less time had passed since Demandred spoke with Graendal.

 

The meeting between Graendal and Sammael took place several days after Demandred went to Shayol Ghul. Graendal could have went in that time. That's pretty obvious.

 

What isn't obvious is how she could know enough about what was going on to swoop in just hours after Rahvin was killed, risk herself to kill Asmodean, make an appointment with both Moghedien and Demandred on the same day AND be summoned to Shayol Ghul.

 

That's a lot to assume, when you can't even reason out how she would know to go to Caemlyn in the first place.

 

Why would she be promised Nae'Blis? Hmmmm...maybe because, I dunno...THE DARK ONE PROMISES ALL OF THEM THE SAME THING. He certainly posed the same proposition to Demandred. "If you do this and this and this, I'll give you unlimited power, blah, blah blah."

 

That's what makes the Forsaken almost comical at times. They all are scheming and sneaking around corridors thinking that they are the only ones who have the chance to get anything out of a raw deal.

 

Graendal, she took over the entire western coastline practically, and she threw the entire region into chaos. Of course she gets a pat on the head. she doesn't have to kill Asmodean for any recognition. She's capable of doing her own things...

 

I think it's funny though that people are suggesting that Graendal knows more than not just Rahvin, Sammael and Demandred, but more than the Dark One does as well. In fact, the Dark One gets all of his pertinent information from her. PLEASE.

 

I know that many of you want Graendal to be the answer, but lets not rewrite her character just to serve that end.

[Child of Lir]

Slayer/Lord Luc killed Asmodean.  He's the Dark One's assasin.  He killed the two Black Ajah in the Stone of Tear.  We'd already met him by the time Asmo died.  He could get into the closet, Asmodean would recognize him and know immediately he was there to kill him.  Slayer killed Asmodean.

 

Sorry, but it's not Slayer. RJ gave us two rules, a long time ago, to find the killer:

 

1. It's intuitively obvious to even the most casual reader.

2. All the clues are in the first five books.

 

Apart from the clues pointing towards death by balefire wielded by a female hand, Slayer fails both rules because, at the time of Asmodean's death we did not know that he was the Shadow's assassin. We knew he liked to kill animals, particularly wolves; we knew he looked like Lan and Rand, so we could guess at the Luc / Isam construct, but not know how that works; we did not know of  his ability to leap out of Tel'aran'rhiod in any given place, just that he could do it in the locale in which he was at the present moment; and we had no way to connect him to Asmodean or no way of knowing how he would know that Asmodean was in Caemlyn.

 

And responding to lou, the first person to voice the idea of killing Asmodean was Lanfear in Tear when telling Rand that Asmodean would teach him, and then when done she would kill him and - getting rather carried away with her own ambition - suggested overthrowing the DO with Rand. This occurs in TSR.

[The Dragon Reborn]

The only semi-plausible suspects:

• Graendal
  
• Sammael
  
• Mesaana
• 
  
  • Demandred
  • 
    

  Maybe Asan'gar and Oran'gar, I can't remember if they had come back yet.

  I think you can even rule out some of these through their POV sequences....as they were unsure if Asmodean was dead or not.

   

  Not being rude but people who mention suspects like Moiraine, Lanfear, Taim, Avi, Slayer are plain and simple wrong. I don't know who it is, but I can sure say a few people it isn't.

  Moiraine, Lanfear: Both trapped with the Finn.

  Slayer: Not even mentioned yet.

  Taim, Avi: Totally unobvious, therefore not a suspect using RJ's 'Intuitively Obvious' Rule.

[Jonn]

The only semi-plausible suspects:

• Graendal
  
• Sammael
  
• Mesaana
• 
  
  • Demandred
  • 
    

  Maybe Asan'gar and Oran'gar, I can't remember if they had come back yet.

  I think you can even rule out some of these through their POV sequences....as they were unsure if Asmodean was dead or not.

   

  Not being rude but people who mention suspects like Moiraine, Lanfear, Taim, Avi, Slayer are plain and simple wrong. I don't know who it is, but I can sure say a few people it isn't.

  Moiraine, Lanfear: Both trapped with the Finn.

  Slayer: Not even mentioned yet.

  Taim, Avi: Totally unobvious, therefore not a suspect using RJ's 'Intuitively Obvious' Rule.

 

It's not rude. It's valid to have reservations and your opinion. Your list is not really off, but Lanfear and Moiraine , at the time of the murder were as viable as they come.

 

The whole sequence of Asmodean's death was eerily suggestive and served as a reminder of both Lanfear and Moiraine's presence in the book.

 

Remember, RJ gives alludes to both women in the sequence. Lanfear is mentioned directly prior to Asmodean's exit. She is the last person besides himself that he was casually musing about just before he went through that doorway. RJ alludes to Moiraine a bit more indirectly but not any in any less suggestive means. A mention of Lanfear alone should remind the audience of Moiraine, but add in the sequence of Asmodean's words hanging in the air...just as Be'lal's did when Moiraine erased him from the story.

 

Lanfear was eliminated simply because she has been on screen for so long as Cyndane and she never mentions nor alludes to having been anything but subdued by the Eelfinn. We cannot assume the Moiraine's fate is the same as Lanfear's because (obviously now) the two women didn't end up in the same place ultimately.

 

A big reason to hold back on revealing anything to do with Moiraine is obviously to gradually increase the suspense of her reintroduction by Memory of Light.

 

I agree about Slayer though. His ship has sailed for much the same reasons that Lanfear's has as well.

 

Graendal could work, but I just think that there isn't much justification as to why her identity as the killer should have been treated so vaguely. What is the point in beating around the bush about it, if it's the truth? It's all well and good if the other characters in the book don't know, but it needn't be a secret to the readers. There's no real logic behind it, and I honestly don't think RJ would waste our time with something so trivial.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

I think it's funny though that people are suggesting that Graendal knows more than not just Rahvin, Sammael and Demandred, but more than the Dark One does as well. In fact, the Dark One gets all of his pertinent information from her. PLEASE.

 

Well...I'd just like to know how the Dark One found out what happened. That is, if he knew who killed Asmodean. For all we know, he didn't.

 

But I wasn't really, I don't think, trying to prove who killed Asmodean. I was just creating a plausible scenario.

 

And for the record, it's not that I want Graendal to be the murderer. I don't really care. I just think that is who probably did it.

 

Also, Demandred was not promised, or "all-but promised" to be named Naeblis.

 

WOULD YOU BE NAEBLIS?

Demandred's tongue froze. Nae'blis. The one who would stand only a step below the Great Lord, commanding all the others. "I wish only to serve you, Great Lord, however I may." Nae'blis.

THEN LISTEN, AND SERVE. HEAR WHO WILL DIE AND WHO LIVE.

 

He was never sure how much the Great Lord knew of the world. He had been as startled by ignorance as by knowledge.

[lou]

quote by Child of Lir:

"And responding to lou, the first person to voice the idea of killing Asmodean was Lanfear in Tear when telling Rand that Asmodean would teach him, and then when done she would kill him and - getting rather carried away with her own ambition - suggested overthrowing the DO with Rand. This occurs in TSR."

it was my first read through that i was talking about, my first thought on whodunnit was sammael, for those reasons i gave. the part of TSR you were talking about has lanfear telling rand that they would kill the "others" (forsaken) including asmo. it is not the same as sammael's stating to just kill asmo. it was just my opinion, not a point of contention.

[reyler]

Also, Demandred was not promised, or "all-but promised" to be named Naeblis.

 

WOULD YOU BE NAEBLIS?

Demandred's tongue froze. Nae'blis. The one who would stand only a step below the Great Lord, commanding all the others. "I wish only to serve you, Great Lord, however I may." Nae'blis.

THEN LISTEN, AND SERVE. HEAR WHO WILL DIE AND WHO LIVE.

 

No, strictly speaking, he wasn't. That's not to say he didn't still interpret it as such. Quite likely Graendal got some similarly meaningless inference and took more from it than she should have. Shai'tan knows his pawns, with the exception of Ishamael, are just out for personal gain, and gives them the occasional token to keep them doing their job, when really he isn't going to give them squat.

[Jonn]

I think it's funny though that people are suggesting that Graendal knows more than not just Rahvin, Sammael and Demandred, but more than the Dark One does as well. In fact, the Dark One gets all of his pertinent information from her. PLEASE.

 

Well...I'd just like to know how the Dark One found out what happened. That is, if he knew who killed Asmodean. For all we know, he didn't.

 

But I wasn't really, I don't think, trying to prove who killed Asmodean. I was just creating a plausible scenario.

 

And for the record, it's not that I want Graendal to be the murderer. I don't really care. I just think that is who probably did it.

 

Also, Demandred was not promised, or "all-but promised" to be named Naeblis.

 

WOULD YOU BE NAEBLIS?

Demandred's tongue froze. Nae'blis. The one who would stand only a step below the Great Lord, commanding all the others. "I wish only to serve you, Great Lord, however I may." Nae'blis.

THEN LISTEN, AND SERVE. HEAR WHO WILL DIE AND WHO LIVE.

 

He was never sure how much the Great Lord knew of the world. He had been as startled by ignorance as by knowledge.

 

No, it's a good and worthwhile question to ask. What does the Dark One know and what not?

 

Let's take it from this angle...What does Demandred really know regarding the subjects touched upon during his interview with the boss? He says what he knows in that he knows Rahvin is dead and he has heard that both Lanfear and Asmodean had disappeared along with Moghedien.

 

"DEMANDRED. HOW FARES THIS WORLD?

 

He was never sure how much the Great Lord knew of the world. He had been as startled by ignorance as by knowledge. But he had no doubt what the Great Lord wanted to hear.

 

“Rahvin is dead, Great Lord. Yesterday.” There was pain. Euphoria too strong became pain quickly. His arms and legs twitched. He was sweating, now. “Lanfear has vanished without a trace, just as Asmodean did. And Graendal says Moghedien failed to meet her as they had agreed. Also yesterday, Great Lord. I do not believe in coincidence.”

 

THE CHOSEN DWINDLE, DEMANDRED. THE WEAK FALL AWAY. WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH. ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS. RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME. For an instant terrible anger filled that awful voice, and—could it be frustration? An instant only. DONE BY MY ANCIENT ENEMY, THE ONE CALLED DRAGON. WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED?"

 

When Demandred mentions the Dark One's ignorance, he isn't referring to that particular moment with him standing at the lake of fire. He's thinking about in general, that the Dark One seems to know some things and not know other things, Demandred is just not sure what and how.

 

Also notice what he says about Asmodean. He never actually says that he knows for sure that Asmodean is dead. He simply says "WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH." He never says Asmodean is dead, it's more of a threat, and then he gives an example of someone who is a traitor. ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS.

 

Fact is, the Dark One could very well still be in the dark (no pun intended) about Asmodean's true fate.

 

Look at the next thing he says. It certainly isn't about a traitor. Rahvin served well, but the Dark One astonishingly gives an example of his inability to save someone he would like to have. What's very interesting is that the Dark One is talking about two people that he did not kill, but he's hinting that he has no power to touch either. This is stunning coming from the supposed Lord of the Grave, but it all seems to go right over Demandred's head.

 

Now, how does the DO know that both are dead? Like I said, he never really says that Asmodean is dead (even though he is). Demandred had just told him that Asmodean had disappeared. Having been severed from Asmodean by Rand at Rhuidean, it's hard to say if the Dark One would just know that Asmodean had died. He would know that Rahvin had died, because the Forsaken are all linked to the Dark One somehow.

 

If you look at Demandred's thoughts closely, you can see that he probably telling the Dark One things that he already knows from his own means. It's never said that the Dark One is ignorant at all, especially concerning the deaths of his alcolytes. Something tells me that he just knows if any of the Forsaken actually die.

 

Hope this is making sense to you.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Well, I believe that he probably knows when Forsaken die.

 

However, Asmodean's link to the DO was destroyed by Rand before Asmodean died.

 

If the link is how the DO captures souls (to transmigrate them), and therefore how he knew they were dead, if the link was destroyed, how would he know they were dead?

 

Nevermind. I just realized the link appears only on male Forsaken, and is how they channel clean saidin.

 

Knowing this, I would suppose part of the frustration of the DO was that he was unable to hold Asmodean's soul (and torture him (?)), perhaps because he was killed by balefire (?)

 

Isn't betraying the DO supposed to be a fate worse than death? Does the DO have the ability to hold souls (like Kari al'Thor)? And if so, and if when someone was killed by balefire they could no longer be held by the DO, could the frustration of the DO be because 1)he could not bring back a loyal servant (Rahvin), and 2) he could not capture and punish Asmodean?

 

I don't know, this was pretty incoherent.

[Jonn]

Well, I believe that he probably knows when Forsaken die.

 

However, Asmodean's link to the DO was destroyed by Rand before Asmodean died.

 

If the link is how the DO captures souls (to transmigrate them), and therefore how he knew they were dead, if the link was destroyed, how would he know they were dead?

 

Nevermind. I just realized the link appears only on male Forsaken, and is how they channel clean saidin.

 

Knowing this, I would suppose part of the frustration of the DO was that he was unable to hold Asmodean's soul (and torture him (?)), perhaps because he was killed by balefire (?)

 

Isn't betraying the DO supposed to be a fate worse than death? Does the DO have the ability to hold souls (like Kari al'Thor)? And if so, and if when someone was killed by balefire they could no longer be held by the DO, could the frustration of the DO be because 1)he could not bring back a loyal servant (Rahvin), and 2) he could not capture and punish Asmodean?

 

I don't know, this was pretty incoherent.

 

No, I see what you're saying.

I don't think that the DO is frustrated per se. I think he uses up his pieces on the board and if they get taken, well he tries to squeeze as much out of them going down as he can.

 

If he can, he'll put you in another body if he sees fit. If you're a traitor, he likes to make an example. In Asmodean's case, I think he just wanted to suggest that he didn't bring back Asmodean because of his choice not to do so rather than admit that he couldn't. That or Asmodean's actions lead him to his ultimate and very Final end.

 

It's the DO's way of making lemons into lemonade.