The Role of Illian in AMoL

[cloglord]

Okay, I've made most of these arguments in other threads, but I thought that I'd consolidate them here, so that each facet of this argument could strengthen the other.  I feel that Illian will play a pivotal role in AMoL.  There are several reasons why I believe this, and I will detail each of them individually below.

 

First, Illian is where roughly half of Rand's forces are gathered.  While it certainly is possible that they could be moved where ever they may be needed by use of gateways, I don't think that time will be spent in AMoL to do so.  It seems likely to me that there will be a trolloc force that will attack out of the Shadow Coast, and the forces now stationed in Illian will be a part of the battle against them.

 

Second, Illian seems to be next on the list of conquests for the Seanchan.  If you assume that AMoL will see some sort of treaty negotiated between the Seanchan and Rand, it is likely that Illian would be the place for such a treaty to be arranged.  It seems more likely as such a place than Arad Doman, as Rand has held Illian longer, and it is physically closer to Ebou Dar, the home of the Imperial Seanchan court in exile.

 

Third, It is the most likely place for Mat/Aludra's Dragons to be cast.  It is one of the world's great seaports, and has industries, (shipbuilding and tanning,) that have common infastructure with that of the production of gunpowder.  It also has the benefit of being a short trip down river from Mat and Aludra's curent location.

 

Fourth, it is the most likely place for Setalle Anan to go.  Her entire family is there currently.  If there is resolution of her plotline, (a possible role in a truce with Tuon, and a possible healing of her burnout,) then the most likely place for this to occur is in Illian.  This is synergetic with the point about the Seanchan Truce.  If Rand shows up in Illian, then both Nynaeve and Damer Flin would be as well.  Since both of these two character figured out to heal stilling independently of each other, they would be the most qualified to make an attempt at healing Anan.

 

Fifth, It is the single most likely place for the Horn of Valere to end up.  That is of course assuming, (as I do,) that Verin has gone to remove the Horn from its current location.  Moraine, in the moments after first seeing it in TEotW, states clearly that it must go to Illian.  She has had no time to plan a reason why, nor does she say that it "Should" go to Illian.  She flat out says that it must go to Illian, so we know that she at least believes that it must arrive there at some point.  LET ME BE CLEAR, I already know that it isn't mentioned ANYWHERE in the prophecies that the Horn must go to Illian.  I base my assumption here, on Moraine's gut response from the end of TEotW.

 

Sixth, Mattin Stepaneos is alive.  I assume that there is a reason that RJ has not killed him, and I think that the most likely place for him to fulfill his role is in Illian.

 

 

Fire Away.

[Majsju]

After KOD, far from half of Rands forces are in Illian, as we know he's gathering a massive army to destroy the seanchan if they don't accept the treaty.

 

The meeting with Tuon should take place somewhere between Ebou Dar and where this massive gathering of forces currently are. Ie, quite far from Illian.

 

Mat (and thus Aludra) are on the move away from Illian. Since Mats next move should be to head towards the Tower of Ghenjei, next tiume he hooks up with Rand (to provide Aludra with the resources needed) the treaty with the seanchan should already be landed, making trollocs the first target for the dragons. And the closest location to Illian we'll see open battle with shadowspawn will most likely be Andor.

 

Why the bloody hell would the horn of valere end up in Illian? IF Verin is on her way to take it away, she knows very well that it is bound to Mat, and as far as she, and everyone else knows, Mat is nowhere near Illian.

 

Just a few starting points.

[Charlz Guybon]

After KOD, far from half of Rands forces are in Illian, as we know he's gathering a massive army to destroy the seanchan if they don't accept the treaty.

 

The meeting with Tuon should take place somewhere between Ebou Dar and where this massive gathering of forces currently are. Ie, quite far from Illian.

 

Mat (and thus Aludra) are on the move away from Illian. Since Mats next move should be to head towards the Tower of Ghenjei, next tiume he hooks up with Rand (to provide Aludra with the resources needed) the treaty with the seanchan should already be landed, making trollocs the first target for the dragons. And the closest location to Illian we'll see open battle with shadowspawn will most likely be Andor.

 

Why the bloody hell would the horn of valere end up in Illian? IF Verin is on her way to take it away, she knows very well that it is bound to Mat, and as far as she, and everyone else knows, Mat is nowhere near Illian.

 

Just a few starting points.

 

A Seanchan army has crossed the Illian border, so Rand must have left a large force in country.

 

Verin may expect Mat to end up there because of the references to him and Illian in the prophesies.

[lou]

Ituralde has been infiltrating the seanchan sworn taraboners for some time now, the seanchan may find thier army not quite so formidible as the seanchan presumed. i believe this was graendal's "influence" on her meeting with Iturtalde in LOC, to further chaos. in any case, if the seanchan army is swept out from beneath them,it is not likely that they will be invading illian or anywhere else. it would be in seanchan best interest, as an invading army far from home or any hope of reinforcements, to join with rand at this point.

[cloglord]

After KOD, far from half of Rands forces are in Illian, as we know he's gathering a massive army to destroy the seanchan if they don't accept the treaty.

 

Yeah, that's what I said, something big is going to happen in Illian, it will probably involve the Seanchan.

 

The meeting with Tuon should take place somewhere between Ebou Dar and where this massive gathering of forces currently are. Ie, quite far from Illian.

 

Will Rand consent to a meeting in Altara, after what happened the last time he tried to make peace with the Seanchan?  Illian, according to the BWB, is primarily populated within the city of Illian.  There aren't really any other towns in which to meet, unless they set up something in one of the hill forts of some po-dunk village.  Even if the meeting takes place at the border, it is still an event likely to take place within the boundaries of the country.  However you look at it, it seems pretty likely, to me at least, that the meeting will happen in Illian, even if it doesn't take place within the city itself.

 

Mat (and thus Aludra) are on the move away from Illian. Since Mats next move should be to head towards the Tower of Ghenjei, next tiume he hooks up with Rand (to provide Aludra with the resources needed) the treaty with the seanchan should already be landed, making trollocs the first target for the dragons. And the closest location to Illian we'll see open battle with shadowspawn will most likely be Andor.

 

Why would Mat feel the need to take Aldura with him to the middle of nowhere?  Especially if he could just as easily send her downriver to begin the process?  With the presence of Rand's forces in Illian, a company of men from the Band and a letter from Mat would be enough to ensure that she could access Rand's resources as well.  I don't see why Mat would wait to start making Dragons, or why he would take Aldura with him to a place he knows that only he, Thom, and another man can safely navigate.

 

Andor, the Shadow Coast, or both, Illian is in an excellent position to reach whatever fray is about to ensue.

 

Why the bloody hell would the horn of valere end up in Illian? IF Verin is on her way to take it away, she knows very well that it is bound to Mat, and as far as she, and everyone else knows, Mat is nowhere near Illian.

 

For starters, the Horn would end up in Illian, because it has got to be one of the most heavily forshadowed occurences in the books.  EVERY book has mentioned hunters for the Horn.  The Horn, the hunt for it, and Illian are linked by most every character that mentions these things.  Moraine, without time to scheme or plan, felt that it needed to go there, and Moraine at least seems to be familiar with some sort of prophecy related to the Horn.

 

As kind of a subpoint here, I think that there is the potential for kind of a perfect storm in Illian, that will wrap up the Mattin Stepaneos, Hunters for the Horn, "where will the horn end up?", subplots.  This is a little further out there, but here goes.  If Verin were to rescue both the horn and Stepaneos and bring them both to Illian, it would have the effect of anouncing to the World, and thus to Mat, that the Horn had been found and was in Illian.  It would resolve Stepaneos's reason for still being alive, as he called the hunt, he could bring the hunt to an end, and cause the word of the horn's finding to travel quickly and reliably.  If you believe as I do,(See the how much time will AMoL cover? thread) that TG is a couple of months off, it would also give the dispersed hunters for the horn time to reunite under the banner of the light.  It might not be signifigant in terms of raw numbers, fighting ability, or anything else, but it would tie a group of people together that we have been hearing about since the first chapters of the first book.  It is a tidy conclusion.  It explains Stepaneos's continued presence, unites the Hunters, and let's Mat know that the horn is no longer in his least favorite place in the world, but is instead among friends.  He might even get back in time to help iron some wrinkles out between the Seanchan and Rand.

 

As for why Verin would take it there, you are absolutely correct, no one knows where Mat is.  That is exactly my point.  If I had the horn, and I didn't know where Mat was, and I believed, as I do, that the Horn was destined to end up in Illian, then you'd better believe that's were I'd take it.  Especially if it were the place that hosts the single greatest gathering of forces for the light.  Verin doesn't know where Mat is, she has no good way of finding him, and she is apparently operating under the assumption that TG is VERY near.  She has no good way of finding him, but she has a ready made way to ensure that word reaches him of the horn's location, by taking it to Illian.  If the horn is destined to be blown for TG, it doesn't seem that hard to believe that Verin would trust destiny to bring Mat to the horn.  Personally, I don't think it would be too far a stretch for destiny, since he's only going to be a few weeks up river from Illian for the foreseeable future.    

 

 

It's a perfect storm.  Aldura can get started in Illian, and give Mat a good reason to come to Illian after he's done at the ToG.  Rand and Tuon can either kick off their war in Illian or get started negotiating.  Mat could certainly help there and it will give him another reason to come to Illian.  Presumably Mat will have Moraine with him, Rand and Moraine need to meet before the end, yet another reason for Mat to go to Illian.  If Rand's in Illian with Flinn and Nynaeve, Setalle Anan can possibly be healed, by being healed she can help convince Tuon to take another look at Aes Sedai.  No one knows that Anan used to be Aes Sedai but Mat though, another Mat connection.  Mat has ton's of reasons to end up in Illian.  If the horn ends up there, as I suspect it will, it just gives him more.  

 

[Majsju]

After KOD, far from half of Rands forces are in Illian, as we know he's gathering a massive army to destroy the seanchan if they don't accept the treaty.

 

Yeah, that's what I said, something big is going to happen in Illian, it will probably involve the Seanchan.

 

Uhm, you might want to read what you wrote again, since what I wrote contradicts that.

 

The meeting with Tuon should take place somewhere between Ebou Dar and where this massive gathering of forces currently are. Ie, quite far from Illian.

 

Will Rand consent to a meeting in Altara, after what happened the last time he tried to make peace with the Seanchan?  Illian, according to the BWB, is primarily populated within the city of Illian.  There aren't really any other towns in which to meet, unless they set up something in one of the hill forts of some po-dunk village.  Even if the meeting takes place at the border, it is still an event likely to take place within the boundaries of the country.  However you look at it, it seems pretty likely, to me at least, that the meeting will happen in Illian, even if it doesn't take place within the city itself.

 

Remember that it is Rand who seeks the meeting, it is Rand who wants something here. He has asked Tuon for a meeting, not the other way around. Which gives her first call on where the meeting is to be held, and I quite doubt she would accept a meeting in a country where Rand is king. While a completely neutral place might be impossible to reach, Illian is about as neutral as having the meeting in Seandar.

Given resent events, there are several places just outside Altara where the Seanchans control has been seriously compromised.

And I don't think Rand would care much about "what happened last time". Last time, he did not meet with a high positioned Seanchan, he met with Semirhage. And even if Rand can sometimes seem borderline paranoid, there is no way he would ponder the possibility of another forsaken attempting the exact same plan.

 

Mat (and thus Aludra) are on the move away from Illian. Since Mats next move should be to head towards the Tower of Ghenjei, next tiume he hooks up with Rand (to provide Aludra with the resources needed) the treaty with the seanchan should already be landed, making trollocs the first target for the dragons. And the closest location to Illian we'll see open battle with shadowspawn will most likely be Andor.

 

Why would Mat feel the need to take Aldura with him to the middle of nowhere?  Especially if he could just as easily send her downriver to begin the process?  With the presence of Rand's forces in Illian, a company of men from the Band and a letter from Mat would be enough to ensure that she could access Rand's resources as well.  I don't see why Mat would wait to start making Dragons, or why he would take Aldura with him to a place he knows that only he, Thom, and another man can safely navigate.

 

Andor, the Shadow Coast, or both, Illian is in an excellent position to reach whatever fray is about to ensue.

 

Mat knows that the best chance for Aludra to make her ideas reality is to have her meet Rand, convince him  about the greatness of the idea, so he can provide money and workers. Shipping her off to Illian, where he knows that Rand hasn't stayed in quite a while seems quite foolish. IF Mat would send Aludra off, it would be either to Caemlyn (if he gets word of Elaynes victory), since he trusts Elayne more than most women wearing that certain ring, and since he knows a thing or two about the relations between Elayne and Rand. Or, to Cairhien, the location of Rands school, and the city he knows Rand has spent most time in.

 

And of course, bringing her along to the Tower of Ghenjei is not exactly the same thing as bringing her inside. I would not be surprised if Mat brought a number of people along, since there is always the possi bility they might need help once/if they get out.

 

Why the bloody hell would the horn of valere end up in Illian? IF Verin is on her way to take it away, she knows very well that it is bound to Mat, and as far as she, and everyone else knows, Mat is nowhere near Illian.

 

For starters, the Horn would end up in Illian, because it has got to be one of the most heavily forshadowed occurences in the books.  EVERY book has mentioned hunters for the Horn.  The Horn, the hunt for it, and Illian are linked by most every character that mentions these things.  Moraine, without time to scheme or plan, felt that it needed to go there, and Moraine at least seems to be familiar with some sort of prophecy related to the Horn.

 

And what all these mentions havde in common is that there is not a single mention of a prophecy connecting the horn and Illian. Zero, zip, nada.

Illian did not even exist when the prophecies were written.

I would not be surprised to learn that some old king in Illian came up with the idea that the horn should be brought to Illian just out of jealosuy for Tears connection to the DR. Kings often do silly tings like that, I think their brains are wired differently than other peoples.

 

As for the mentionings being foreshadowing, RJ is not a stranger to red herrings, though this would be a rather weak one. But more than a red herring, it works as a tool for RJ. Everytime a hunter for the horn has been seen, it's been to explain a characters presence in a place he or she does not belong. It led to Perrins firts meeting with Gaul, Perrin meeting Faile, gave Luc a plausible reason to be lurking around in the Two Rivers etc.

 

As kind of a subpoint here, I think that there is the potential for kind of a perfect storm in Illian, that will wrap up the Mattin Stepaneos, Hunters for the Horn, "where will the horn end up?", subplots.  This is a little further out there, but here goes.  If Verin were to rescue both the horn and Stepaneos and bring them both to Illian, it would have the effect of anouncing to the World, and thus to Mat, that the Horn had been found and was in Illian.  It would resolve Stepaneos's reason for still being alive, as he called the hunt, he could bring the hunt to an end, and cause the word of the horn's finding to travel quickly and reliably.  If you believe as I do,(See the how much time will AMoL cover? thread) that TG is a couple of months off, it would also give the dispersed hunters for the horn time to reunite under the banner of the light.  It might not be signifigant in terms of raw numbers, fighting ability, or anything else, but it would tie a group of people together that we have been hearing about since the first chapters of the first book.  It is a tidy conclusion.  It explains Stepaneos's continued presence, unites the Hunters, and let's Mat know that the horn is no longer in his least favorite place in the world, but is instead among friends.  He might even get back in time to help iron some wrinkles out between the Seanchan and Rand.

 

As for why Verin would take it there, you are absolutely correct, no one knows where Mat is.  That is exactly my point.  If I had the horn, and I didn't know where Mat was, and I believed, as I do, that the Horn was destined to end up in Illian, then you'd better believe that's were I'd take it.  Especially if it were the place that hosts the single greatest gathering of forces for the light.  Verin doesn't know where Mat is, she has no good way of finding him, and she is apparently operating under the assumption that TG is VERY near.  She has no good way of finding him, but she has a ready made way to ensure that word reaches him of the horn's location, by taking it to Illian.  If the horn is destined to be blown for TG, it doesn't seem that hard to believe that Verin would trust destiny to bring Mat to the horn.  Personally, I don't think it would be too far a stretch for destiny, since he's only going to be a few weeks up river from Illian for the foreseeable future.    

 

 

It's a perfect storm.  Aldura can get started in Illian, and give Mat a good reason to come to Illian after he's done at the ToG.  Rand and Tuon can either kick off their war in Illian or get started negotiating.  Mat could certainly help there and it will give him another reason to come to Illian.  Presumably Mat will have Moraine with him, Rand and Moraine need to meet before the end, yet another reason for Mat to go to Illian.  If Rand's in Illian with Flinn and Nynaeve, Setalle Anan can possibly be healed, by being healed she can help convince Tuon to take another look at Aes Sedai.  No one knows that Anan used to be Aes Sedai but Mat though, another Mat connection.  Mat has ton's of reasons to end up in Illian.  If the horn ends up there, as I suspect it will, it just gives him more.  

 

 

Oh yes, it would make a perfect storm, everything nicely fitting together. Which is why it will not happen. A common theme in TWOT is that no matter how careful plans you make, events in the real world will force your hand.

 

If Verin is headed for the horn, and decides not to take her chances in finding Mat, I doubt she would go to Illian just to hope word would eventually reach Mat. They don't exactly have mobile phones and email in this world, you know. And we've also seen that even if word would reach Mat, he would demand several independent sources, since we've seen how much a story changes when it spreads.

 

I think she would search out Rand. He would be way easier to find than Mat, and Verin being the prophecy expert will obviously know that Mat eventually will have to find his way to Rand.

 

Had it been any other person than Verin, I might have bought running off to Illian. Verin is however too smart for that.

 

As for shadowspawn attacking the shadowcoast by ships, first of all we have not heard a word about the sadow even using ships, except the ones brought into Tear by cargoship. You don't use cargoships for a massive assault however. And even if they had ships, sand did decide to attack the shadowcoast, incidently there happen to be a masive Seanchan fleet nearby, as well as pretty much all of the Athan Miers ships headed that direction. There would be noithing left for Aludra to shoot at once the smoke cleared.

[RobertAlexWillis]

For starters, the Horn would end up in Illian, because it has got to be one of the most heavily forshadowed occurences in the books.  EVERY book has mentioned hunters for the Horn.  The Horn, the hunt for it, and Illian are linked by most every character that mentions these things.  Moraine, without time to scheme or plan, felt that it needed to go there, and Moraine at least seems to be familiar with some sort of prophecy related to the Horn.

 

There. Is. No. Prophecy. Linking. The. Horn. To. Illian.

 

And no character has linked the Horn to Illian in the last, oh, 8 books or so.  Pretty much nothing since Perrin and Moiraine passed through Illian chasing Rand, and Faile told her story as a Hunter.

 

The link between the Horn and Illian is propaganda.  Moiraine had a plan to take advantage of that propaganda, not a mystical prophecy that only she knows about.  A plan she quickly and easily discarded, after Mat blew the Horn.  9 books ago.

 

Let it go, man.

[cloglord]

There. Is. No. Prophecy. Linking. The. Horn. To. Illian.

 

there is not a single mention of a prophecy connecting the horn and Illian. Zero, zip, nada.

 

Oh, I must have missed that, no wait, I didn't

 

LET ME BE CLEAR, I already know that it isn't mentioned ANYWHERE in the prophecies that the Horn must go to Illian.

 

There.Is.A.Prophecy.Of.The.Horn. 

 

The link between the Horn and Illian is propaganda.  Moiraine had a plan to take advantage of that propaganda, not a mystical prophecy that only she knows about.

 

It is referenced in the first chapters of TGH as a Prophecy well know among those who fight the Shadow.  Moraine fights the shadow, and according to Suian has been studying prophecies for the last 20 years.  Moraine, gravely wounded, lying on the ground, in the blight, claims that the horn must go to Illian the instant that she realizes what's in the box. Not after a while in which to work out some sort of scheme, she sees the horn and imeadiately says that it must go to Illian.

 

Uhm, you might want to read what you wrote again, since what I wrote contradicts that.

 

Sorry, I misread you.  You are wrong.  Rand has a massive force in Illian to force the Seanchan to the table.  I don't have the exact spot it says this in front of me, but its true none the less.

 

Remember that it is Rand who seeks the meeting, it is Rand who wants something here. He has asked Tuon for a meeting, not the other way around. Which gives her first call on where the meeting is to be held, and I quite doubt she would accept a meeting in a country where Rand is king.

 

Tuon seeks the meeting, her forces have already crossed the border into Illian.  She's made the first move.

 

 

And I don't think Rand would care much about "what happened last time". Last time, he did not meet with a high positioned Seanchan, he met with Semirhage.

 

I'd think twice about arranging a meeting with someone who until very recently was under the control of Semhirage, wouldn't you?  From Rand's POV that's what he would be doing.

 

Mat knows that the best chance for Aludra to make her ideas reality is to have her meet Rand, convince him  about the greatness of the idea, so he can provide money and workers. Shipping her off to Illian, where he knows that Rand hasn't stayed in quite a while seems quite foolish. IF Mat would send Aludra off, it would be either to Caemlyn (if he gets word of Elaynes victory), since he trusts Elayne more than most women wearing that certain ring, and since he knows a thing or two about the relations between Elayne and Rand. Or, to Cairhien, the location of Rands school, and the city he knows Rand has spent most time in.

 

No, the best chance for Aldura to make things happen is if she gets started, and as soon as possible.  mat has already stated that he has enough gold to get a good start on things himself.  It is silly to think that Carhien would be a decent choice, as it would take the better part of a month to get there and would take her through Illian or Camelyn before she got there.  Camelyn might make a good choice except for one thing, there is no evidence that the materials needed to cast the cannons could be found there.  Gunpowder takes Saltpetre, Charchoal, and some sort of sulphur compound.  The production of pitch for the shipyards in would produce masssive amounts of charcoal, as well as some sulphourous by products, the pitch itself not least among them.  The chemicals used in tanning, could also provide some sulphurous salts as well as the Saltpetre.  Illian is well set up for Aldura, and Aldura is only a week of so upriver.

 

If Verin is headed for the horn, and decides not to take her chances in finding Mat, I doubt she would go to Illian just to hope word would eventually reach Mat. They don't exactly have mobile phones and email in this world, you know. And we've also seen that even if word would reach Mat, he would demand several independent sources, since we've seen how much a story changes when it spreads.

 

You are missing the point, she would not have to hope that word would find Mat.  Mat wouldn't need to hear from several independant sources.  A decree from Stepaneos calling an end to the Hunt would fly to the four corners, and the fact that it was proclaimed by the King of Illian, the man who called the hunt in the first place, would be all the legitimacy needed.

 

As for shadowspawn attacking the shadowcoast by ships...

 

Who said anything about attacking by ship.  If you re-read the books carefully, you'll notice that the only two waygates that Loial didn't get shut on his around the world trip were in the shadow coast, a harsh and uninhabited land perfect for hiding a trolloc horde.  A suprise attack, by land, not a naval assualt.

 

 

 

 

[Darkness Incarnated]

There.Is.A.Prophecy.Of.The.Horn.

 

Provide.A.Quote.Anything.Supporting.Your.Claim

 

[Maj has provided the Horn prophecy below, but the above still stands. (Other than Moiraine's claims, is there anything else? And why has she since discarded that idea?)] 

 

It is referenced in the first chapters of TGH as a Prophecy well know among those who fight the Shadow.  Moraine fights the shadow, and according to Suian has been studying prophecies for the last 20 years.  Moraine, gravely wounded, lying on the ground, in the blight,

 

That's way more dramatic than I remember; you depict Moiraine as literally dying, I remember no such thing.

 

claims that the horn must go to Illian the instant that she realizes what's in the box. Not after a while in which to work out some sort of scheme, she sees the horn and imeadiately says that it must go to Illian.

 

How many times have Aes Sedai proved to be wrong in their most cherished beliefs? Why couldn't it be the case this time?

 

Sorry, I misread you.  You are wrong.  Rand has a massive force in Illian to force the Seanchan to the table.  I don't have the exact spot it says this in front of me, but its true none the less.

 

I remember Rand moving the Aiel from Illian, and they are his main force, to be honest. Another thing, Rand has already beaten the Ever Victorious Army once, do you think the Seanchan are going to attack the country where the man who beat them is king just like that? Especially at this time when they are trying to come to an alliance? Do you think Tuon is stupid enough to attract the wrath of a man as powerful as Rand?

 

Tuon seeks the meeting, her forces have already crossed the border into Illian.  She's made the first move.

 

In which way does that indicate that the meeting will be in Illian? If anything, Rand is not going to see that incursion [is it one?] with a good eye. Why would Tuon attract his attention to that fact?

 

You are missing the point, she would not have to hope that word would find Mat.  Mat wouldn't need to hear from several independant sources.  A decree from Stepaneos calling an end to the Hunt would fly to the four corners, and the fact that it was proclaimed by the King of Illian, the man who called the hunt in the first place, would be all the legitimacy needed.

 

Isn't Mat aware of the fact that Rand is king in Illian? Why would he believe that Mattin Stepaneos--presumed dead--is suddenly alive? Not only that, but back to playing king? And before you bring it up, I don't see Rand giving Stepaneos the crown back, at least not until after the Last Battle.

 

[Majsju]

There.Is.A.Prophecy.Of.The.Horn.

 

Indeed. But you seem to have forgotten what it says, so allow me to remind you...

 

In the last, lorn fight

'gainst the fall of long night,

the mountains stand guard,

and the dead shall be ward,

for the grave is no bar to my call.

 

See Any reference to Illian here?

 

It is referenced in the first chapters of TGH as a Prophecy well know among those who fight the Shadow.  Moraine fights the shadow, and according to Suian has been studying prophecies for the last 20 years.  Moraine, gravely wounded, lying on the ground, in the blight, claims that the horn must go to Illian the instant that she realizes what's in the box. Not after a while in which to work out some sort of scheme, she sees the horn and imeadiately says that it must go to Illian.

 

If you are refering to the meeting between Moiraine and Siuan, there is not a single word about Illian when they're discussing prophecies. Not. A. Single. Word.

There is however a mentioning of Agelmar, how he thought about going to SG and blow the horn himself. Interstingly enough, what held him back was the inscription about not thinking of glory. Not some mysterious prophecy about Illian. Interestingly enough, Moiraine and Siuan does not say anything about Illian, but simply nods at his  reasoning.

 

There is no prophecy connecting the Horn to Illian. Period, if your books say otherwise someone must have added text to them.

 

 

[cloglord]

Indeed. But you seem to have forgotten what it says, so allow me to remind you...

 

Nope, haven't forgotten, in fact I came to this argument well read up.  I am of course familiar with the passage that you quote, but no where is it suggested that this passage is the whole of the prophecy of the horn.  In fact you seem to have forgotten what I have said, and then quoted myself as saying, so I'll re-quote myself until you decide to read what I wrote instead of just assuming that I'm a crackpot idiot.

 

LET ME BE CLEAR, I already know that it isn't mentioned ANYWHERE in the prophecies that the Horn must go to Illian.

 

I posted that in my original post, and I repeated it in my last.  I make no claim that the horn is linked in prophecy anywhere in the books.  There are three seperate claims that I'm making here.  One, the there is a well known prophecy of the Horn.  Two, Moraine is a longtime student of prophecies.  Three, Moraine belived that the Horn must go to Illian.  These three things taken together seem suggestive to me.

 

If you are refering to the meeting between Moiraine and Siuan, there is not a single word about Illian when they're discussing prophecies. Not. A. Single. Word.

Actually there is mention of Illian, but as so many before you have pointed out, there seems to be some some abiguity as to Moraine's motives for her plan to take the Horn to Illian by that point.  The argument is that Moraine doesn't believe that the Horn should go because of prophecy, but rather for political reasons related to Rand.  As for the absence of a specific mention of the horn being linked to Illian, what do you need?  Does Moraine have to be the queen of exposition?  Does EVERYthing need to be laid out in black and white before it even becomes possible?

 

[Maj has provided the Horn prophecy below, but the above still stands. (Other than Moiraine's claims, is there anything else? And why has she since discarded that idea?)]

 

Who says that she's discarded the idea?  She's hardly been in a position to do anything at all about the horn or its whereabouts.  Likewise, neither Siuan or Verin has been in a place to easily force the issue either.  So who else knows where the horn is, that could be making any progress on this matter?

 

That's way more dramatic than I remember; you depict Moiraine as literally dying, I remember no such thing.

 

She had been in the ungentle hands of Aginor just previous.  If you recall, she had to be carried out of the Blight on a litter between Aldieb and Bela.

 

As for quotes, when I get more time, I'll be happy to hunt them up, and post them here.

[Majsju]

Who says that she's discarded the idea?  She's hardly been in a position to do anything at all about the horn or its whereabouts.  Likewise, neither Siuan or Verin has been in a place to easily force the issue either.  So who else knows where the horn is, that could be making any progress on this matter?

 

Moiraines actions kinda indicates she has discarded her idea to bring the horn to Illian, since she instead of taking it there gives it to Verin, for Verin to bring it to Tar Valon. And what is Siuans reaction, does she even consider sending it to Illian? Nope, she makes sure it is safely hidden away inside the Tower until it is time for Mat to blow it at TG.

 

So, from their own actions, and lack of words and thoughts, we have Siuan, Moiraine and Verin completely ignoring the notion if bringing it to Illian.

 

As for quotes, when I get more time, I'll be happy to hunt them up, and post them here.

 

Good luck with that. You won't find any, but have fun rereading.

[cloglord]

TEoTW Ch. 52

 

"The flattened cube of gold and silver appeared to be solid, but the Aes Sedai's fingers felt across the intricate work, pressing, and with a sudden clicka top flung back as if on springs.  A curled, gold horn nestled within.  Despite its gleam, it seemed plain the chest that held it.  The only markings were a line of silver script inlaid around the mouth of the bell.  Moraine lifted the horn out as if lifting a babe.  'This must be carried to Illian,' she said softly."

 

TEotW Ch 53

 

"'I do not show it [the horn] to you to taunt you, but so that you will know that in whatever battles yet come, our might will be as great as the Shadow.  Its place is not here.  The Horn must be carried to Illian  It is there, if fresh battles threaten, that it must rally the forces of the Light.  I will ask an escort of your best men to see that it reaches Illian safely.  There are Darkfriends still, and well as Halfmen and Trollocs, and those who come to the horn will follow whoever winds it.  It must reach Illian."

 

TGH Ch 5

"Agelmar was familiar with the Prophecy of the Horn; most who fought the Dark One were.  'Let whoever sounds me think not of glory, but only of salvation.'"

 

"The Illianers would follow the Dragon reborn, or Bal'alzamon himself, if he came bearing the Horn of Valere, and so will the greater part of those gathered for the Hunt."

 

TDR Ch 12

 

"'For the moment,' the Amrylin said finally, 'we will find some place to hide this [the horn] where no one but we two know.  I will consider what to do after that.'" 

 

There you go, I didn't have to re-read at all, as I said I came to this topic read up.  Moraine, as tudent of the prophecies, is CONVINCED that the horn needs to go to Illian.  The entire population of Illian is convinced that the horn will come to Illian.  The reason that Moraine had not pursued the horn since TGH is that she has not had access to it since the beggining of TGH, and she knows, up to the point that she dies/dissapears, that it is in the capable hands of her best friend and the Amrylin seat.  I don't have my copy of the BWB with me, but I'll be happy to post the section that mentions the cultural importance of the Horn in Illian when I get the chance.

 

Moiraines actions kinda indicates she has discarded her idea to bring the horn to Illian, since she instead of taking it there gives it to Verin, for Verin to bring it to Tar Valon. And what is Siuans reaction, does she even consider sending it to Illian? Nope, she makes sure it is safely hidden away inside the Tower until it is time for Mat to blow it at TG.

 

No where does it say that Moraine gave Verin the horn, in fact it make no mention of Verin and Moarine meeting at all on Toman Head.  Verin left, Moraine stayed, that's all the book says.  Secondly, Suian's reaction is disbelief that it wasn't left with Rand, then indecision based on new and unforeseen circumstances.  She makes this decision on the assumption that she will be able to keep Mat in TV with her.  Just because we see no further onscreen discussion of this does not mean that no one was thinking of what to do with the horn.  Not to mention the fact that by that next spring it is reasonable to assume that Moraine has gotten word to Siuan tha Illian is under the control of Sammael.  A situation that was not rectified until long after Siuan was deposed and in no position to effect the fate of the Horn at all.

 

I know what I'm talking about, I've done my research.  Please think again before you call me out on the facts.  I know what's there, and I know what's not there.  Believe me.

 

BTW the prophecy that you quoted me earlier is not prophecy, it is the opening words of a recitation of The Great Hunt for the Horn.  The only specific quotation of the Horn Prophecy is the one I made above. 

[lou]

here is what the GWB says about the horn, make of it what you will:

"the grave is no bar to my call. prophesy states that it will be found in time for the last battle."

 

that is the prophesy part. most of the info involves when the last hunt was called, and the prize given for the best telling of the legend.

 

it ends with:

"since the heroes departure there have been runors of the horn appearing in shienar, and in falme, some said they saw an army of heroes from legend charging to the song of a triumphant horn, but noone has yet returned the horn to illian."

pg 280 TGWB

[Mr Ares]

TEoTW Ch. 52

 

"The flattened cube of gold and silver appeared to be solid, but the Aes Sedai's fingers felt across the intricate work, pressing, and with a sudden clicka top flung back as if on springs.  A curled, gold horn nestled within.  Despite its gleam, it seemed plain the chest that held it.  The only markings were a line of silver script inlaid around the mouth of the bell.  Moraine lifted the horn out as if lifting a babe.  'This must be carried to Illian,' she said softly."

 

TEotW Ch 53

 

"'I do not show it [the horn] to you to taunt you, but so that you will know that in whatever battles yet come, our might will be as great as the Shadow.  Its place is not here.  The Horn must be carried to Illian  It is there, if fresh battles threaten, that it must rally the forces of the Light.  I will ask an escort of your best men to see that it reaches Illian safely.  There are Darkfriends still, and well as Halfmen and Trollocs, and those who come to the horn will follow whoever winds it.  It must reach Illian."

 

TGH Ch 5

"Agelmar was familiar with the Prophecy of the Horn; most who fought the Dark One were.  'Let whoever sounds me think not of glory, but only of salvation.'"

 

"The Illianers would follow the Dragon reborn, or Bal'alzamon himself, if he came bearing the Horn of Valere, and so will the greater part of those gathered for the Hunt."

 

TDR Ch 12

 

"'For the moment,' the Amrylin said finally, 'we will find some place to hide this [the horn] where no one but we two know.  I will consider what to do after that.'" 

 

There you go, I didn't have to re-read at all, as I said I came to this topic read up.  Moraine, as tudent of the prophecies, is CONVINCED that the horn needs to go to Illian.  The entire population of Illian is convinced that the horn will come to Illian.  The reason that Moraine had not pursued the horn since TGH is that she has not had access to it since the beggining of TGH, and she knows, up to the point that she dies/dissapears, that it is in the capable hands of her best friend and the Amrylin seat.  I don't have my copy of the BWB with me, but I'll be happy to post the section that mentions the cultural importance of the Horn in Illian when I get the chance.

Here's your answer:

cultural importance of the Horn in Illian

The Horn is culturally important to Illian' date=' and Moiraine decides to take advantage of that. Your own words. No need to add a prophetic importance. If we look at your quotes from thext in that light, the first one makes perfect sense, the second makes perfect sense, and the fourth make perfect sense. Neither the third nor the fifth even makes mention of Illian: Agelmar is familiar with a prophecy of the Horn, but doesn't mention taking it to Illian in that quote, only that the person that blows it should think of salvation rather than glory, which is hardly relevant to getting it to Illian, and the fifth makes mention of hiding the Horn and considering what to do after that - if she has to concider then Siuan is obviously not sold on taking it to Illian. You then go on to state that moiraine is convinced it should go to Illian, and the Illianers are convinced it should go to them, but why do these parties think that? Do we need to invent a prophetic requirement? No. Moiraine is convinced of the need to take it there [i']because[/i] of the importance Illianers place on it, and we don't need prophecy to have a reason for the Horn to be important to Illian.

 

Moiraines actions kinda indicates she has discarded her idea to bring the horn to Illian, since she instead of taking it there gives it to Verin, for Verin to bring it to Tar Valon. And what is Siuans reaction, does she even consider sending it to Illian? Nope, she makes sure it is safely hidden away inside the Tower until it is time for Mat to blow it at TG.

 

No where does it say that Moraine gave Verin the horn, in fact it make no mention of Verin and Moarine meeting at all on Toman Head.  Verin left, Moraine stayed, that's all the book says.  Secondly, Suian's reaction is disbelief that it wasn't left with Rand, then indecision based on new and unforeseen circumstances.  She makes this decision on the assumption that she will be able to keep Mat in TV with her.  Just because we see no further onscreen discussion of this does not mean that no one was thinking of what to do with the horn.  Not to mention the fact that by that next spring it is reasonable to assume that Moraine has gotten word to Siuan tha Illian is under the control of Sammael.  A situation that was not rectified until long after Siuan was deposed and in no position to effect the fate of the Horn at all.

And why wasn't it left with Rand? Why doesn't Siuan try to get it back to Rand? Why does she never think or talk about the prophetic requirements of gettin the Horn to Illian? Why are all your quotes from the first three books? Why is no mention made later of getting the Horn to Illian? Why not in books 8-11, where Sammael is gone from Illian? Why no mention, in thought or speech, if this prophetic requirement exists? Even if they can't act, then why no mention? if you answered these questions, you might win more people over.

 

I know what I'm talking about, I've done my research.  Please think again before you call me out on the facts.  I know what's there, and I know what's not there.  Believe me.

And what's not there is mention of a prophetic requirement to get it to Illian, which you know. there is mention of a cultural importance (by you), but that isn't necessary now that rand is King of Illian.

 

BTW the prophecy that you quoted me earlier is not prophecy, it is the opening words of a recitation of The Great Hunt for the Horn.  The only specific quotation of the Horn Prophecy is the one I made above.

If that is the only bit specifically mentioned, then why are you so sure that there is more, including something about getting it to Illian?

[Majsju]

The Illianers would follow the Dragon reborn, or Bal'alzamon himself, if he came bearing the Horn of Valere, and so will the greater part of those gathered for the Hunt."

 

The answer to why Moiraine is so dead set initially to bring the horn to Illian is here (you should try to have this sentence in mind if you ever reread TSR and TFOH, with Moiraines conversations of what Rand should do next). Take the horn to Illian, wave the horn in the air, and the people will follow. This is perfectly in line with what we've seen Moiraine and Siuan say and think on several occasions during the first few books, that while it is important that Rand porclaim himself TDR, he must go slow initially, and build an army. Bringing the horn to Illian is the perfect propaganda to start that building.

 

Only, that is now completely unecessary. Rand got Illian behind him without the horn. He also got quite a bunch of other forces behind him. Without any horn brough to Illian.

 

What it all comes down to when looking at what the books Actually say, is that there is not a single mention of the connection between the horn and Illian comes from any prophecy.

The only reason we have ever seen given for bringing the horn to Illian is for political reasons. Incidently, Moiraine and Siuan are Blue Ajah, which means they are among the most skilled in the world at political maneuvering.

 

 

[lou]

TEoTW Ch. 52

 

"The flattened cube of gold and silver appeared to be solid, but the Aes Sedai's fingers felt across the intricate work, pressing, and with a sudden clicka top flung back as if on springs.  A curled, gold horn nestled within.  Despite its gleam, it seemed plain the chest that held it.  The only markings were a line of silver script inlaid around the mouth of the bell.  Moraine lifted the horn out as if lifting a babe.  'This must be carried to Illian,' she said softly."

 

TEotW Ch 53

 

"'I do not show it [the horn] to you to taunt you, but so that you will know that in whatever battles yet come, our might will be as great as the Shadow.  Its place is not here.  The Horn must be carried to Illian  It is there, if fresh battles threaten, that it must rally the forces of the Light.  I will ask an escort of your best men to see that it reaches Illian safely.  There are Darkfriends still, and well as Halfmen and Trollocs, and those who come to the horn will follow whoever winds it.  It must reach Illian."

 

TGH Ch 5

"Agelmar was familiar with the Prophecy of the Horn; most who fought the Dark One were.  'Let whoever sounds me think not of glory, but only of salvation.'"

 

"The Illianers would follow the Dragon reborn, or Bal'alzamon himself, if he came bearing the Horn of Valere, and so will the greater part of those gathered for the Hunt."

 

TDR Ch 12

 

"'For the moment,' the Amrylin said finally, 'we will find some place to hide this [the horn] where no one but we two know.  I will consider what to do after that.'" 

 

There you go, I didn't have to re-read at all, as I said I came to this topic read up.  Moraine, as tudent of the prophecies, is CONVINCED that the horn needs to go to Illian.  The entire population of Illian is convinced that the horn will come to Illian.  The reason that Moraine had not pursued the horn since TGH is that she has not had access to it since the beggining of TGH, and she knows, up to the point that she dies/dissapears, that it is in the capable hands of her best friend and the Amrylin seat.  I don't have my copy of the BWB with me, but I'll be happy to post the section that mentions the cultural importance of the Horn in Illian when I get the chance.

 

Moiraines actions kinda indicates she has discarded her idea to bring the horn to Illian, since she instead of taking it there gives it to Verin, for Verin to bring it to Tar Valon. And what is Siuans reaction, does she even consider sending it to Illian? Nope, she makes sure it is safely hidden away inside the Tower until it is time for Mat to blow it at TG.

 

No where does it say that Moraine gave Verin the horn, in fact it make no mention of Verin and Moarine meeting at all on Toman Head.  Verin left, Moraine stayed, that's all the book says.  Secondly, Suian's reaction is disbelief that it wasn't left with Rand, then indecision based on new and unforeseen circumstances.  She makes this decision on the assumption that she will be able to keep Mat in TV with her.  Just because we see no further onscreen discussion of this does not mean that no one was thinking of what to do with the horn.  Not to mention the fact that by that next spring it is reasonable to assume that Moraine has gotten word to Siuan tha Illian is under the control of Sammael.  A situation that was not rectified until long after Siuan was deposed and in no position to effect the fate of the Horn at all.

 

I know what I'm talking about, I've done my research.  Please think again before you call me out on the facts.  I know what's there, and I know what's not there.  Believe me.

 

BTW the prophecy that you quoted me earlier is not prophecy, it is the opening words of a recitation of The Great Hunt for the Horn.  The only specific quotation of the Horn Prophecy is the one I made above. 

 

 

i notice most of your quotes come from TEoTW, this was before mat blew the horn. i am fairly certain moiraine meant the horn to be for rand. after mat blew the horn, linking himself to it not rand, things changed signifigantly.i think this is why there is no further mention by moiraine.

[cloglord]

What it all comes down to when looking at what the books Actually say, is that there is not a single mention of the connection between the horn and Illian comes from any prophecy.

The only reason we have ever seen given for bringing the horn to Illian is for political reasons. Incidently, Moiraine and Siuan are Blue Ajah, which means they are among the most skilled in the world at political maneuvering.

Firstly, I tire of repeating myself.  I specifially stated, in my origianl post, there is nowhere in the books that specifically links the Horn to Illian.  I agree with you wholeheartedly here, and I admitted as much right from the beggining.  I have not EVER made any claim otherwise. 

 

Secondly, I have posted what the books actually say, there is a reason that I didn't include the passage about Moraine's plan to induce Rand to go to Illian with the horn.  That passage is as you say, only indicative of an attempt to force Rand to declare himself.  The passages I quoted are from the moments, and the day following Moraine's discovery of her possesion of the Horn of Valere.  The specific point I was trying to make is that Moraine, in her injured state, immeadiately after discovering the horn, states that the horn must go to Illian.  Unless you are suggesting that Moraine's    Blue Ajah scheming ability is so good, that she can nearly instantly formulate her plan to induce Mat, Rand, and Perrin to take the Horn to Illian, while also manage to convince herself that her plan to do so is the only viable option, then this argument doesn't hold up.  She says that it must go to Illian, not that it should, that it must.  This word choice on her part is indicative of some further knowledge on Moraine's part.  By the 3 oaths we know that she believes in the necessity of the horn's destination.  The fact that she says as much directly after first seeing the horn, leaves her very little time to scheme or find justification to have her initial statement mean anything else.

 

The second statement comed from the next day, when the group returns to Fal Dara.  Admittedly this would have given time for even a wounded Moraine to have made whatever plans, she has concocted.  However, she mentions nothing of the boys to Agelmar, when she requests an escort to bring the horn to Illian.  It is important to remember that Moraine is suprised at the arrival of the Amrylin.  There is no certaintly that Moraine has, at the point of this second quote, fleshed out the plan that is presented to Siuan 5 or 6 chapters into TGH.  In either case, she does not make the claim that it is imperative that Rand, escort the horn to Illian, merely that it must go.

 

If we assume that Moraine is well versed in Prophecies related to TDR and TG, then her behavior here seems indicative of some knowledge related to the Horn that we the reader are not privvy to. 

 

i notice most of your quotes come from TEoTW, this was before mat blew the horn. i am fairly certain moiraine meant the horn to be for rand. after mat blew the horn, linking himself to it not rand, things changed signifigantly.i think this is why there is no further mention by moiraine.

 

Most of the discussion of the horn's destiny in the books comes from the very end of TEoTW, the 4th chapter of TGH, and the 12th Chapter of TDR.  Moraine does not have access to the horn at all after its theft from Fal Dara, except for the possibility[/] that Moraine and Verin met on Toman Head.  In either case, Moraine's access to the Horn had and has been very limited since the passages that I quoted, and it is for these reasons that I believe that Moraine has not offered up any suggestions for what should be done with the Horn.  Simply, she hasn't had the chance to weigh in, so why would she?

[Majsju]

You would be wise to learn a bit about how the oath against lying works before attempting to use it as evidence of anything.

 

Do you seriously think that Moiraine is so stupid that she does not have plans about what Rand needs to do? That she just figured she'd find the DR, and then see how things worked out along the way?

You don't think that someone who has spent 20 years with all prophecies concerning the Dragon Reborn just might have seen a hint or two that the horn Might be found at the Eye, and made plans for what to do If that happened to be true? You don't think she is very well aware that the horn Will be found, and has plans made if she is around when it is found?

 

You seem to confuse Moiraine with some wideeyed novice, who doesn't think further than next meal.

 

Making up theories is perfectly ok, but face it, you have provided a grand total of Zero evidence.

[Luckers]

Frankly, i think every position that is relevant to this discussion has already been stated. All that I can really say is that Moiraines position re: the Horn is inherently suspect since her single drive is the advancement of the Dragon.

 

Barring such (actually, including Moiraine's comments) the only references linking the Horn to Illian have been the result of cultural socialisation--which puts it on a par with comments such as 'all Aes Sedai are Darkfriends who broke their world at their master's [The Dark One's] command' and 'The Dragon shall be reborn to break the world again in service of the Dark One' and... well, do I really need to go on.

 

Factually speaking we have seen the Horn used freely without any sort of geis to Illian. Moreover, the only person that can sound the Horn is currently moving toward Andor.

 

Yeah... Don't see any connection between the Horn and Illian in the near future.

 

Now, as for your specific points.

 

First, Illian is where roughly half of Rand's forces are gathered.  While it certainly is possible that they could be moved where ever they may be needed by use of gateways, I don't think that time will be spent in AMoL to do so.  It seems likely to me that there will be a trolloc force that will attack out of the Shadow Coast, and the forces now stationed in Illian will be a part of the battle against them.

 

Fair enough. The disposition of Rand's forces there are somewhat in dispute, yet nevertheless he has a sizeable army there. And I agree they will play a part in dealing with the Shadow Coast Incursion.

 

Second, Illian seems to be next on the list of conquests for the Seanchan.  If you assume that AMoL will see some sort of treaty negotiated between the Seanchan and Rand, it is likely that Illian would be the place for such a treaty to be arranged.  It seems more likely as such a place than Arad Doman, as Rand has held Illian longer, and it is physically closer to Ebou Dar, the home of the Imperial Seanchan court in exile.

 

Whilst I agree that illian is a goal for the Seanchan, I don't see it being played soon. For one we know that the current Seanchan agenda is the Tower, for two, they have issues in Arad Domon to deal with. As to the treaty, as has been stated, Tuon will never enter hostile territory for the meeting. It's pointedly absurd.

 

Third, It is the most likely place for Mat/Aludra's Dragons to be cast.  It is one of the world's great seaports, and has industries, (shipbuilding and tanning,) that have common infastructure with that of the production of gunpowder.  It also has the benefit of being a short trip down river from Mat and Aludra's curent location.

 

Seems to me that Caemlyn is the more likely source. For starters only Andor and Tear have access to active mines (the source of saltpepper and so forth). Frankly, given Mat's path I find your reasoning weak at best.

 

Fourth, it is the most likely place for Setalle Anan to go.  Her entire family is there currently.  If there is resolution of her plotline, (a possible role in a truce with Tuon, and a possible healing of her burnout,) then the most likely place for this to occur is in Illian.  This is synergetic with the point about the Seanchan Truce.  If Rand shows up in Illian, then both Nynaeve and Damer Flin would be as well.  Since both of these two character figured out to heal stilling independently of each other, they would be the most qualified to make an attempt at healing Anan.

 

Yeah, her family has been there for three books. Her path is with Mat, and Mat's path is in Andor... so no, i see nothing in that point.

 

Your finaly point has been addressed by arguments better than mine. :)

[cloglord]

You would be wise to learn a bit about how the oath against lying works before attempting to use it as evidence of anything.

 

Um, it would be wise to read the sections in question before attempting to make me look ignorant.

 

TEotW Ch 52.

 

Moraine says, "I begin to wonder, The Eye of the World was made against the greatest need the world would ever face, but was it made for the use to which...we...put it, or to guard these things?"

 

Moraine began to wonder.  

 

"'Is it...?' Loial stopped to catch his breath.  'Can it be...?'"

 

Loial had no clue that the Eye held the Horn.

 

"'The Horn of Valere.'  For once the Warder apeared truly shaken; there was a touch of awe in his voice."

 

Lan had no idea that the Eye held the Horn.

 

Moraine does not appear to have considered the possibility that the Eye of the World was designed to protect important artifacts from the Aol, specifically the Horn of Valere.  Loial, the next most likely person in the group to have predicted the Horn's presence, was likewise clueless.  Lan, to whom both the legend of the Eye and the Legend of the Horn were well known, is likewise awestruck.  Sure, it could have been some elaborate scheme by Moraine to track down the Horn and hide her suspicions in order to force Rand's actions.  A plan that would have been laid well before she even knew Rand's name, but it doesn't seem that likely from their reactions here.  There's no conspiracy to force Rand to Illian at this point, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

 

And as for knowing how the Oath works, its pretty simple.  Moraine could only say things that she believes to be true.  She simply states that the Horn must go to Illian.  So, by her Oath, she believes this to be true.  You are, if I'm reading you correctly, claiming that her belief stems from some plan she hatched on the assumption that the Horn would be found at the Eye of the World.  I am saying that I believe that her belief stems from some other information that we the reader have not been given yet.  I believe that information comes in the form of the Prophecy of the Horn that apparently is "...well known to all those who fight the Shadow."  The same information that I believe has let the entire nation of Illian to believe that their destiny is linked to the Horn.  I've alreaady got a whole nation and the forces of the light agreeing with me, where's your proof that Moraine can predict the future and scheme schemes of things that are remotely possible?

 

I have not offered anything by way of proof, nor have I claimed to.  This is simply because, as I've said over and over again, there is no proof that the Horn must go to Illian.  The tesitmony of Moraine is not ironclad, and is at best hearsay in this instance.  However, it is indicative, as many other things are, the things that I mentioned in my first post.  On the other hand, there is no proof that it must not go to Illian either.  The point and premise of this argument was not to prove anything,  but was rather to try and determine wether it was more likely to end up in Illian than it was to end up somewhere else.  By my judgement, the indications are that the Horn will end up in Illian.

 

So Maj, you are right, I have no proof, only the strength of my arguments and the indications that I believe support them.  So, I guess the ball's back in your court, prove me wrong.  It's much easier to tear down an argument than build your own.  Instead of telling us why you disagree with my points, why don't you tell us why you don't believe the Horn will end up in Illian.  Be sure to provide plenty of evidence.....  

[cloglord]

All that I can really say is that Moiraines position re: the Horn is inherently suspect since her single drive is the advancement of the Dragon.

 

Which is precisely why I feel that her immeadiate and first reaction is the purest and least suspect.  Remember, at that point, she has just recieved final confirmation that Rand was indeed the subject of her 20 year long search, and had been suprised with the revelation that the Horn of Valere had been found.  To question her motives in that first moment, is to attribute to Moraine a level of guile that is simply too much for me to believe.  Yes Moraine is trciky, but that tricky?  Really?

 

the only references linking the Horn to Illian have been the result of cultural socialisation--which puts it on a par with comments such as 'all Aes Sedai are Darkfriends who broke their world at their master's [The Dark One's] command' and 'The Dragon shall be reborn to break the world again in service of the Dark One' and... well, do I really need to go on.

 

I would agree with you entirely, except that there clearly is a Prophecy of the Horn, and it is a widely know prophecy.  The comments that you give are not supported by prophetic teachings within the cultures that made them.  Even the comments about the future of role of the Dragon are made by people unfamiliar with the prophecies of the Dragon.  I'm not saying that the cultures of Randland are infalliable, but simply because they are widely held beliefs does not make them untrue.  There are other widely held cultural beliefs in the books that we the reader have never questioned.  The Car 'a Carn's arrival, the arrival of the Cooramoor spring to mind.  Both societies believed  something based on some sort of prophetic teaching, both societies were absolute in their belief, and both societies were absolutely correct.  Why is Illian's belief any cheaper? 

 

 

Whilst I agree that illian is a goal for the Seanchan, I don't see it being played soon. For one we know that the current Seanchan agenda is the Tower, for two, they have issues in Arad Domon to deal with. As to the treaty, as has been stated, Tuon will never enter hostile territory for the meeting. It's pointedly absurd.

 

I am not sure what it is that you base your assumptions on Seanchan priorities on.  While it is true, that it appears that a raid on the white tower has been in the plans for some time, it is also true to say that the plan to invade Illian as been around as long if not longer.  We know nothing for sure about the timing of the attack on the white tower, but we do know that Seanchan forces have already crossed the border, and that there was an army stationed in the Maldive Narrows to prevent reinforcement of the Illianers through Murandy.  As of the end of KoD's the opening of the invasion of Illian was already begun, we have no similar indication that the attack on the whote tower has begun.  The case of Arad Doman is a different case entirely, as it was not planned in the same way that the attacks in Illian and against the Tower were, it is reactionary, and does not fall under the same rules.  The last thing that I wanted to say in response to thins is, that I agree that it is not the most likely thing for Tuon to enter hostile territory, it is not against her nature or past patterns to do so.  Rand on the other hand has just as little reason to meet Tuon on her home turf, which would severely limit the places that they could meet.  If Rand won't go to Seanchan controlled lands, and Tuon won't go to lands controlled by the dragon where will they meet?  There's not that many places, nit under the control of one or the other.  Simply, I believe that Tuon, if the proper precautions were taken, is the more likely of the two to place themselves into a vulneralbe position.  She has done it in the past, by allowing Mat to whisk he raway to the border of Altara, and on no better pretext than an ambiguous foretelling and Mat's word.  If Tuon feels the need to meet with Rand in order to fulfill prophecy she will do it.  It becomes even more likely if Mat is in Illian to provide for her security.

 

Seems to me that Caemlyn is the more likely source. For starters only Andor and Tear have access to active mines (the source of saltpepper and so forth). Frankly, given Mat's path I find your reasoning weak at best.

 

On what basis to you make the assumption that these two countries are the only with mines to produce the nessecary materials?  I scoured the BWB, for references that would support or refute this argument, and found little to work with.  We could argue this point, but I think that it is largely moot.  The timeframe required to actually mine and transport thee raw material, would quickly make it impractical for any pre-TG use.  Simply, there isn't time to mine it, it will have to be there already, and Illian is the most likely place for these material to be stockpiled. 

 

 

 

 

 

     

[Luckers]

Which is precisely why I feel that her immeadiate and first reaction is the purest and least suspect.  Remember, at that point, she has just recieved final confirmation that Rand was indeed the subject of her 20 year long search, and had been suprised with the revelation that the Horn of Valere had been found.  To question her motives in that first moment, is to attribute to Moraine a level of guile that is simply too much for me to believe.  Yes Moraine is trciky, but that tricky?  Really?

 

Actually, I don't think she was being tricky. In fact that is the precise problem with your suggestion. Her statements came from personal belief combined a sense of desire. Nothing in her comments came from intellectual concideration about the Horn itself.

 

For clarity. Her first comment came from her socialized connection to Illian, not education. Her later comments came from her intentions for the dragon's political situation... again, not the Horn.

 

I would agree with you entirely, except that there clearly is a Prophecy of the Horn, and it is a widely know prophecy.  The comments that you give are not supported by prophetic teachings within the cultures that made them.  Even the comments about the future of role of the Dragon are made by people unfamiliar with the prophecies of the Dragon.  I'm not saying that the cultures of Randland are infalliable, but simply because they are widely held beliefs does not make them untrue.  There are other widely held cultural beliefs in the books that we the reader have never questioned.  The Car 'a Carn's arrival, the arrival of the Cooramoor spring to mind.  Both societies believed  something based on some sort of prophetic teaching, both societies were absolute in their belief, and both societies were absolutely correct.  Why is Illian's belief any cheaper

 

Actually, there is only a clear social belief about the role of the horn. As such it is precisely comprable with those 'comments'.

 

To make the distinction that they are supported by the prophetic teachings of that society you actually have to have those prophetic teachings. More specifically, given the history of the vast division between what is suggested in prophecy, and what is suggest in those 'comments' makes a rather dire objection to your position since what you are working on is 'comments'.

 

I am not sure what it is that you base your assumptions on Seanchan priorities on.  While it is true, that it appears that a raid on the white tower has been in the plans for some time, it is also true to say that the plan to invade Illian as been around as long if not longer. 

 

Umm... I would be basing them on the fact that a) the leading Seanchan generals are all directed at the Tower, b) we know that the Seanchan who have entered Illian have dug into defensive positions.

 

We know nothing for sure about the timing of the attack on the white tower

 

I'm sorry, but we do. As of Perrin's POV we know that the force that will attack tha Tower is already gathered. Since it seems indecently stupid to hold a force together without proceeding we know that that force has attacked, and through comparing Perrin's POV and Egwene's POV to the Cleansing and taking into concideration the travelling speed of the to'raken (100 miles per day) then yeah, we do know the timing of the attack on the white tower... if you havn't done the math, then yeah, its somewhere between the day after we last saw Egwene and five days after we last saw Egwene.

 

but we do know that Seanchan forces have already crossed the border, and that there was an army stationed in the Maldive Narrows to prevent reinforcement of the Illianers through Murandy. 

 

Uh, we know that the Seanchan forces that crossed the border subsequently dug in... and what is the rest of that? Forces in the Madive Narrows will have absolutely no impact on any confrontation in Illian. Not remotely, not indirectly... not even as a diversion. I'm sorry to remind you of geography... but really. Reinforcements through Murandy?

 

1. The Seanchan know that those defending Illian are using travelling.

 

2. Any landbound reinforcement would move straight to Illian. Even the most westbound reinforcements possible, from Caemlyn, would move through the hills of Kintara right down past Far Madding to Illian. They wouldn't come within a thousand miles of Murandy or the Malvide Narrows.

 

I'm sorry, but unless you are suggesting that the Seanchan put the mentally handicapped in charged of their armed forces, there is no argument here.

 

As of the end of KoD's the opening of the invasion of Illian was already begun, we have no similar indication that the attack on the whote tower has begun. 

 

1. Yeah... we do. I refer you to above.

2. Umm... where?

 

Those points were done out of order. Swap them to make sense.

 

The last thing that I wanted to say in response to thins is, that I agree that it is not the most likely thing for Tuon to enter hostile territory, it is not against her nature or past patterns to do so.  Rand on the other hand has just as little reason to meet Tuon on her home turf, which would severely limit the places that they could meet.  If Rand won't go to Seanchan controlled lands, and Tuon won't go to lands controlled by the dragon where will they meet?  There's not that many places, nit under the control of one or the other.  Simply, I believe that Tuon, if the proper precautions were taken, is the more likely of the two to place themselves into a vulneralbe position.  She has done it in the past, by allowing Mat to whisk he raway to the border of Altara, and on no better pretext than an ambiguous foretelling and Mat's word.  If Tuon feels the need to meet with Rand in order to fulfill prophecy she will do it.  It becomes even more likely if Mat is in Illian to provide for her security.

 

1. There are no past patterns for Tuon dealing with foreign leaders when deciding deals on behalf of the Seanchan nation.

 

2. Rand has shown a direct interest in this alliance. He is pushing, therefore the otherside decides the meeting place... as indeed happened when Semirhage responded. But Semirhage has been dealt with, and Rand is still the one pushing the meeting, and therefore yes, Tuon will decide the place.

 

3. There are thousands of places beyond the rule of both. Even if their weren't the place of meeting would fall to borderland. Thats the nature of how such meetings occur.

 

4. Where it will not occur, is in Illian.

 

On what basis to you make the assumption that these two countries are the only with mines to produce the nessecary materials?  I scoured the BWB, for references that would support or refute this argument, and found little to work with.  We could argue this point, but I think that it is largely moot.  The timeframe required to actually mine and transport thee raw material, would quickly make it impractical for any pre-TG use.  Simply, there isn't time to mine it, it will have to be there already, and Illian is the most likely place for these material to be stockpiled. 

 

Yeah, not moot, since Tear and Andor are cited as the two places where quality ores are produced... which makes them the most likely places for those materials to be stockpiled.

 

And seriously... you want evidence... seriously? Ok... Norry's multiple comments, the Mountains of the Mist, Captain Huan Mallila's comments... seriously?

 

Out of curiosity, what is it that makes you think illian would be the place such things are stockpiled?

[Majsju]

TEotW Ch 52.

 

Moraine says, "I begin to wonder, The Eye of the World was made against the greatest need the world would ever face, but was it made for the use to which...we...put it, or to guard these things?"

 

Moraine began to wonder.  

 

"'Is it...?' Loial stopped to catch his breath.  'Can it be...?'"

 

Loial had no clue that the Eye held the Horn.

 

"'The Horn of Valere.'  For once the Warder apeared truly shaken; there was a touch of awe in his voice."

 

Lan had no idea that the Eye held the Horn.

 

So Loial had no clue. Ok, fair enough. He is not Aes Sedai, and while he may have read as much of the prophecies as Moiraine (which is not that very likely, Aes Sedai tend to have access to documents the rest of the world doesn't even suspect exists), he has read them through the eyes of a history buff, not through the eyes of someone who has strong reason to expect being caught up in the chain of events leading towards TG. He does not have the incentive to attempt to figure out what is hidden between the lines.

 

So Lan had no clue. What a shocker, Moiraine has not told him everything she has ever read. Bad Aes Sedai, keeping secrets like that.

 

So Moiraine begins to wonder. Now, look at the text and see what she wonders about. She wonders about the purpose of the Eye. Which might as well mean "Was the Eye created to hide the horn and the banner, and the pure Saidin just a nice bonus, or was the purpose to provide the Dragon Reborn with a pool of pure Saidin, and the horn and the banner just a nice bonus? Especially since she starts wonder when the pure saidin have been used up.

 

Idle speculation of course. But the point is, Moiraine knows that the horn will show up, since she knows TG is just around the corner. With her out in the world searching for TDR, it is certainly not impossible that she might get her hands on the horn. Which means she will have thought about what to do IF that happens.

 

And another thing. If it is so incredibly important to get the horn to Illian, how come not a single sister was out actively hunting for it? How come the only ones we have seen hunting for it has been people either using the hunt as a chancde to fill their need for adventures, or people aspiring on the glory it would give them to actually find the horn? If it is so incredibly important to brinbg the horn to Illian, why put the fate of the world in the hands of such people as the morons Perrin and the others met in TDR?

 

You'd think that with an Amyrlin who knows TG is coming, finding the horn and make sure it goes to Illian would be a top priority. But noone seems to care, except for Moiraine.

 

And as for knowing how the Oath works, its pretty simple.  Moraine could only say things that she believes to be true.  She simply states that the Horn must go to Illian.  So, by her Oath, she believes this to be true.  You are, if I'm reading you correctly, claiming that her belief stems from some plan she hatched on the assumption that the Horn would be found at the Eye of the World.  I am saying that I believe that her belief stems from some other information that we the reader have not been given yet.  I believe that information comes in the form of the Prophecy of the Horn that apparently is "...well known to all those who fight the Shadow."  The same information that I believe has let the entire nation of Illian to believe that their destiny is linked to the Horn.  I've alreaady got a whole nation and the forces of the light agreeing with me, where's your proof that Moraine can predict the future and scheme schemes of things that are remotely possible?

 

You are reading me far from correctly.

Lets try putting it a little simpler, maybe.

Moiraine, as a highly intelligent and politically skilled person would obviously have made quite a few plans during her 20 year of searching for Rand. Plans based on what she knows, what she suspects, what she can hope for and what she fears, with a good deal of room for adaption when she encounters new information.

One thing she does know is that TDR will be feared and hated by a lot of people, and yet he must proclaim himself. Which will make him a target, and not only for the shadow. Ie, he must build a powerbase, he needs an army.

Finding the horn of Valere would go into the category of things she hoped for, however unlikely. But with the combination of what she knows about what the response in illian would be if someone came with the horn, and her belief that Rand must build a base of power asap, the logical conclusion when she actually sees the horn is that they Must bring it to Illian. It means the possibility to kickstart building the base of power sooner than otherwise would have been possible.

 

As we now know, things turned out very differently. Mat blew the horn instead of Rand, Rand got his army, but in a way Moiraine had no inkling of. He even went as far as getting the Illianers behind him without having to produce the horn.

 

If it had been at all important to get the horn to Illian, Siuan would have assembled a small army and sent it off the same day Verin brought it to her. Instead she locked it away. Because Mat blew it, not Rand. Instead of the Dragon Reborn parading with the Horn, they have a more than half-dead farmboy with the manners of a drunk goat. The political meaning of it is, not gone, but definitly diminished.

 

 

[lou]

very well put, maj. and i am currantly rolling over the "half dead farmboy with the manners of a drunk goat" description.....